Lakers/Pistons game 4

[Brian in Mesa]

maid

made

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Marion is now considered a defensive liability?!?! Even if he is overrated on defense, he still is FAR from a liability. Before JJ picked it up this year, he was given the best player on matchups.

Just do what I did and put this idiot on ignore. Everything that comes out of his mouth is Marion sucks. He is lucky I am not the moderator here because he is basically a troll.

 

[cly2tw]

Just do what I did and put this idiot on ignore. Everything that comes out of his mouth is Marion sucks. He is lucky I am not the moderator here because he is basically a troll.

Since when have I become a mirror that you suddenly see yourself in it? Mindboggling indeed.

 

[carey]

made

Don't be that guy Brian.

 

[George O'Brien]

I am really happy that Pistons are winning, but I think this abuse of people who picked the Lakers to win (while rooting against them) misses a key point: without Malone this is a weaker team than the ones that played during the Laker streak. I expected Malone to play like he did in the early rounds, but his reinjury has turned him into a spectator.

During this series, the Lakers really could have used Robert Horry - at least the one that used to play for them. Leaving Horry open was never really an option, so it was hard to concentrate on Kobe the way the Pistons are able to do.

Maybe we ARE seeing an end to an era. It's about time.

 

[Chaplin]

I agree. It's going to take Kobe years to learn how to be a leader (if he ever does so), and in the meantime the Suns wouldn't be going anywhere, with or without a decent center.

Dude, Kobe ain't Jordan. What does he have to do to prove that to you, score in single digits?

You seriously have no idea what you're talking about, do you? You consistently and annoyingly like to put your little digs in about Kobe Bryant as an individual player, ignoring his good qualities, and effectively dismissing his placement in our TEAM.

Kobe, Marion, JJ, Amare--that is a pretty strong lineup, no matter how much you dislike Kobe--regardless of whether or not he's "Jordanesque".

 

[F-Dog]

You seriously have no idea what you're talking about, do you? You consistently and annoyingly like to put your little digs in about Kobe Bryant as an individual player, ignoring his good qualities, and effectively dismissing his placement in our TEAM.

Kobe, Marion, JJ, Amare--that is a pretty strong lineup, no matter how much you dislike Kobe--regardless of whether or not he's "Jordanesque".

If it bugs you this much when I say something controversial, like 'Kobe isn't as good as Jordan' or 'Kobe won't lead his own team to a championship in the next couple of years', I suggest you break out the ignore function.

 

[Chaplin]

If it bugs you this much when I say something controversial, like 'Kobe isn't as good as Jordan' or 'Kobe won't lead his own team to a championship in the next couple of years', I suggest you break out the ignore function.

And of course, here's the response of the day--don't be such a baby and try to stick with the topic at hand, huh?

 

[elindholm]

People said all the same things about Jordan early in his career.

 

[az1965]

Wanted West to win, but not the Lakers... Love to see their egos taking a beating as well...

 

[George O'Brien]

Maybe if the Suns get Kobe just for his defense.

I have been surprised at how poor Kobe's decision making has been lately (not counting picking up wackos in Vail), but I think it is a combination of things. On offense at least, the combination of Amare, JJ, Shawn, and Dice would be more effective than Shaq and the rest of the Lakers as teammates.

I'm not sure the Suns would have the defense to get into the finals, but they would certainly have more options on offense than just throwing the ball to Shaq or get Kobe the ball with 3 seconds.

BTW, I think Shaq has been the MVP of the finals although in a losing cause. He has bee more active and played with more passion than I've seen in a long time. But the Pistons have the better team.

 

[LakeShowMan]

Congrats again to the Pistons, this is really starting to get embarassing.

I have to say though, I thought the Lakers were getting pretty screwed by the refs in the 4th quarter. It probably makes me sound bitter, and whatever else, but I really don't care. I know if the free throw and fouls disparity was the other way around many people here would be talking about the refs, and the NBA, giving the Lakers the series.

Now, I really truly believe, as I have said here that Detroit has been the better team and has probably got the benefit of the doubt because they have been the more aggressive team. Also, I really don't think the refs gave either team an advantage, except for maybe the 4th qt last night. Lets look at the trend in this series:

Game 1:
Fouls: DET-17, LAL-25
FTs: DET-21-30, LAL-14-18

Game 2:
Fouls: DET-23, LAL-27
FTs: DET-21-31, LAL-17-25

Game 3:
Fouls: DET-16, LAL-28
FTs: DET-21-30, LAL-8-13

Game 4:
Fouls: DET-20, LAL-35
FTs: DET-28-41, LAL-11-22

Series Totals:
Fouls: DET-76, LAL-115
FTs: DET-91-132, LAL-50-78

I am not showing this to complain, I am showing this because I think it has been key in the series. If the Lakers have any chance at all to come back in this series (obviuosly a very small chance), they must find a way to reverse this trend. They have to get to the FT line more and cut down on the fouls. The only game they won, was when the difference in this area was negligible.

The Lakers, if they have any chance at all, must become more aggresive, and take the ball to the basket more. They should try more pick and rolls (this is where Karl's injury really hurts), and may even need to start forcing the issue towards the basket. On defense they may want to try moving to a zone or something (even though I feel Phil may be too stuborn to do so), and force Detroit to be more of a jumpshooting team (it also may make the pick and roll a little less effective).

I know this got a little more long-winded then I originally intended for it to be, but I think it is a pretty good analysis. Also, I know that this is a Suns board, and most of you (OK all of you) are elated that the Lakers are losing, but if you were Phil, what would you try to do to get back into this series?

P.S. I am sure some of you will tell me to quit crying or whatever, and I am actually pretty conflicted about posting this for that reason, but I would hope that before you flame me you remember my track record as a poster.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Congrats again to the Pistons, this is really starting to get embarassing.

I have to say though, I thought the Lakers were getting pretty screwed by the refs in the 4th quarter. It probably makes me sound bitter, and whatever else, but I really don't care. I know if the free throw and fouls disparity was the other way around many people here would be talking about the refs, and the NBA, giving the Lakers the series.

Now, I really truly believe, as I have said here that Detroit has been the better team and has probably got the benefit of the doubt because they have been the more aggressive team. Also, I really don't think the refs gave either team an advantage, except for maybe the 4th qt last night. Lets look at the trend in this series:

Game 1:
Fouls: DET-17, LAL-25
FTs: DET-21-30, LAL-14-18

Game 2:
Fouls: DET-23, LAL-27
FTs: DET-21-31, LAL-17-25

Game 3:
Fouls: DET-16, LAL-28
FTs: DET-21-30, LAL-8-13

Game 4:
Fouls: DET-20, LAL-35
FTs: DET-28-41, LAL-11-22

Series Totals:
Fouls: DET-76, LAL-115
FTs: DET-91-132, LAL-50-78

I am not showing this to complain, I am showing this because I think it has been key in the series. If the Lakers have any chance at all to come back in this series (obviuosly a very small chance), they must find a way to reverse this trend. They have to get to the FT line more and cut down on the fouls. The only game they won, was when the difference in this area was negligible.

The Lakers, if they have any chance at all, must become more aggresive, and take the ball to the basket more. They should try more pick and rolls (this is where Karl's injury really hurts), and may even need to start forcing the issue towards the basket. On defense they may want to try moving to a zone or something (even though I feel Phil may be too stuborn to do so), and force Detroit to be more of a jumpshooting team (it also may make the pick and roll a little less effective).

I know this got a little more long-winded then I originally intended for it to be, but I think it is a pretty good analysis. Also, I know that this is a Suns board, and most of you (OK all of you) are elated that the Lakers are losing, but if you were Phil, what would you try to do to get back into this series?

P.S. I am sure some of you will tell me to quit crying or whatever, and I am actually pretty conflicted about posting this for that reason, but I would hope that before you flame me you remember my track record as a poster.

You've earned some credit, even for a Lakers fan.... While I do hate the Lakers, I really don't think that there is a major disparity in foul calls. You have to admit, that as a gross #, there does seem to be a disparity between the teams. However, after watching each game, there are precious few times when a Laker gets a foul called on them, when I think it is a questionable call. I think the big difference in this series, is that the Lakers are being called for their "molestation fouls", fouls where they have their hands all over the Pistons players. These fouls have been called very little in the past. It is quite easy to see why the Lakers are failing, and why, with the right players, the system would work perfectly well. The Pistons players are simply more athletic and more hungry, and that is why, if trends continue, the Pistons will win the series. Let's face it, this series should have been a sweep; just nobody would have predicted it for the right team.

 

[LakeShowMan]

You've earned some credit, even for a Lakers fan.... While I do hate the Lakers, I really don't think that there is a major disparity in foul calls. You have to admit, that as a gross #, there does seem to be a disparity between the teams. However, after watching each game, there are precious few times when a Laker gets a foul called on them, when I think it is a questionable call. I think the big difference in this series, is that the Lakers are being called for their "molestation fouls", fouls where they have their hands all over the Pistons players. These fouls have been called very little in the past. It is quite easy to see why the Lakers are failing, and why, with the right players, the system would work perfectly well. The Pistons players are simply more athletic and more hungry, and that is why, if trends continue, the Pistons will win the series. Let's face it, this series should have been a sweep; just nobody would have predicted it for the right team.

I agree completely. Other than the 4th quarter last night, I never got mad at the refs. I think they have been fair and the better team has won the games. It is just the nature of agressiveness for the most part and a big reason that Detroit is hading it to the Lakers. LA needs to find a way to reverse this trend. The Pistons have definetly played like they want it more, and I would hate to be a Laker player that has to look myself in the mirror for the next 3-4 months and wonder if there was more that I could have done.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Bottom line for me as far as the free throw thing is concerned is this - Who besides Shaq and Kobe actually draw fouls now that Karl Malone is injured . . . . NO ONE - and with Kobe shooting fade-away jumpers, the Pistons playing Shaq straight up and not having to actually Hack-A-Shaq - it makes pretty good sense why the Lakers aren't getting to the line. On the other hand - You have GP "guarding" Billups - foul city because GP can't stay with him - You have Sheed and even Ben Wallace going up against Luke or Slava - neither of them can play those guys - and they are down low - ability to pick up big fouls there - and you have Rip running around the court like a chicken with his head cut off, tiring Kobe (who has to do too much on offense) which means Rip either gets open shots or drives it to the hole.

It's pretty elementary to me as far as the foul thing goes - and I didn't hear anyone complaing as the Lakers shot 60 more free throws than the T-Wolves in the last series or 45 more than San Antonio in that series. The funniest thing out of all this for me though is living in LA - it seems like there must have been a huge influx of people from Sacramento down here right before Game 1 of this series - because I haven't heard this kind of whining since the 2002 Western Conference Finals (and I'm not including you Lakeshowman in this - you've been pretty stand-up).

If the league doesn't mandate a game 6 back in LA - this Lakers team is absolute dust - Kobe and Shaq NEVER play with each other again - unless it's All-Star weekend and the Phoenix will rise from the ashes of last season - with Kobe/Amare/JJ/Marion coming to kick everyone's ass for the next decade - I'm talking 60's Celtics-style.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

This Detroit series has been errily similar to the San Antonio series last year in which the Lakers lost in 6. The refs have allowed very physical defense which the Lakers never play well against and the Lakers role players have decided not to show up. Also Phil not adjusting to Larry Brown's schemes have hurt as well. It's looks like its going to take the Pistons as much or less time to dismantle the Lakers as it did them the Nets, Bucks, and Pacers; three teams far worse than LA.

 

[LakeShowMan]

Bottom line for me as far as the free throw thing is concerned is this - Who besides Shaq and Kobe actually draw fouls now that Karl Malone is injured . . . . NO ONE - and with Kobe shooting fade-away jumpers, the Pistons playing Shaq straight up and not having to actually Hack-A-Shaq - it makes pretty good sense why the Lakers aren't getting to the line. On the other hand - You have GP "guarding" Billups - foul city because GP can't stay with him - You have Sheed and even Ben Wallace going up against Luke or Slava - neither of them can play those guys - and they are down low - ability to pick up big fouls there - and you have Rip running around the court like a chicken with his head cut off, tiring Kobe (who has to do too much on offense) which means Rip either gets open shots or drives it to the hole.

It's pretty elementary to me as far as the foul thing goes - and I didn't hear anyone complaing as the Lakers shot 60 more free throws than the T-Wolves in the last series or 45 more than San Antonio in that series. The funniest thing out of all this for me though is living in LA - it seems like there must have been a huge influx of people from Sacramento down here right before Game 1 of this series - because I haven't heard this kind of whining since the 2002 Western Conference Finals (and I'm not including you Lakeshowman in this - you've been pretty stand-up).

If the league doesn't mandate a game 6 back in LA - this Lakers team is absolute dust - Kobe and Shaq NEVER play with each other again - unless it's All-Star weekend and the Phoenix will rise from the ashes of last season - with Kobe/Amare/JJ/Marion coming to kick everyone's ass for the next decade - I'm talking 60's Celtics-style.

Great points, and you are correct as to the reason for the foul disparity, but what if anything would you do to try and reverse these trends? I would hope as a coach, you wouldn't just throw your hands up and say we can't do anything (which seems like what Phil is doing, since he has seemingly made no adjustments at all, maybe he retired a week early).

 

[LakeShowMan]

This Detroit series has been errily similar to the San Antonio series last year in which the Lakers lost in 6. The refs have allowed very physical defense which the Lakers never play well against and the Lakers role players have decided not to show up. Also Phil not adjusting to Larry Brown's schemes have hurt as well. It's looks like its going to take the Pistons as much or less time to dismantle the Lakers as it did them the Nets, Bucks, and Pacers; three teams far worse than LA.

Iv'e been thinking the same thing. The really confusing thing to me is: how in the hell did Detroit take 7 games to beat the injury riddled Nets team?

 

[Chaplin]

There was a point where I was convinced last night that the refs were blatantly giving the Lakers more opportunities to get back into the game. Shaq got fouled a couple times by Rasheed, which were totally bogus, and to top it off, there were like 3 lane violations on free throws, giving Shaq a ton of extra shots.

Personally, I'm not a fan of the officiating of this series. As a fan of neither team, I thought the refs have been equally bad on both sides.

 

[LakeShowMan]

There was a point where I was convinced last night that the refs were blatantly giving the Lakers more opportunities to get back into the game. Shaq got fouled a couple times by Rasheed, which were totally bogus, and to top it off, there were like 3 lane violations on free throws, giving Shaq a ton of extra shots.

Personally, I'm not a fan of the officiating of this series. As a fan of neither team, I thought the refs have been equally bad on both sides.

Obviously my perspective will always be a little cloudy because of my allegience. That I will never dispute.

What, if anything, do you think the Lakers could do to cut down on the foul/free throw disparity, short of calling our good friend David Stern ?

 

[Cheesebeef]

Obviously my perspective will always be a little cloudy because of my allegience. That I will never dispute.

What, if anything, do you think the Lakers could do to cut down on the foul/free throw disparity, short of calling our good friend David Stern ?

pay off the refs? Honestly you have a team who is younger, more atheltic and BIGGER than the Lakers right now - I don't see a way to reverse the trend unless ABC wants a game 6 and 7 (I won't be surprised if you get that though).

 

[LakeShowMan]

pay off the refs? Honestly you have a team who is younger, more atheltic and BIGGER than the Lakers right now - I don't see a way to reverse the trend unless ABC wants a game 6 and 7 (I won't be surprised if you get that though).

I got 30 bucks on me right now. I hope that will be enough.

 

[F-Dog]

I am not showing this to complain, I am showing this because I think it has been key in the series. If the Lakers have any chance at all to come back in this series (obviuosly a very small chance), they must find a way to reverse this trend. They have to get to the FT line more and cut down on the fouls. The only game they won, was when the difference in this area was negligible.

...

I know this got a little more long-winded then I originally intended for it to be, but I think it is a pretty good analysis. Also, I know that this is a Suns board, and most of you (OK all of you) are elated that the Lakers are losing, but if you were Phil, what would you try to do to get back into this series?

I think the officiating in the last game was terrible, but not necessarily one-sided. In the second quarter, the Lakers didn't adjust well to the change in officiating patterns from game 3; in the fourth quarter, the refs called a foul whenever anybody fell on the ground away from the ball, but Fisher was the only Laker who seemed to pick up on it, though. Still, the Pistons did benefit from the way the referees called the game.

The other three games, I don't think the Lakers have any argument at all. They usually get most of their FTA from Shaq, and the Pistons aren't fouling Shaq on purpose like most teams do (as you can tell by looking at his shooting %). On defense, the Lakers are constantly slapping at the ballhandler, and they're slow to move in when the Pistons drive the lane--face it, they're slow in general, which you'd expect since many of them are old guys with bad wheels.

On offense, the Lakers aren't driving. They're taking contested jumpers, and the refs aren't bailing them out.

Plus, the Pistons have been ahead for almost the entire series, and the team that's behind typically does most of the fouling.
_______________

If I'm Phil, I know that the Lakers have to go to Shaq early in the clock. That's the only way the Lakers have been breaking down the Pistons' defense. I tell Kobe to drive when he can and get it to Shaq when he can't, because Kobe isn't getting good shots when Shaq doesn't touch the ball.

I'd scrap the triangle for the most part and put Kobe at PG, and tell him that the only way the Lakers are going to win is if he gets a triple-double. The Pistons are cutting off Kobe's driving lanes with their zone, but Kobe has to drive anyway, so that the defense collapses and the players he passes to are wide open when they get the ball.

I guess I'd have to go small, but I'd play the guys who might make a perimeter shot or two if they're open. That means as little of Gary Payton as possible unless he's posting up.

On defense, I'd try to make the Pistons shoot quickly off the catch or the dribble instead of giving them driving lanes or wide-open perimeter shots. The Lakers need to foul less and take their chances with the Pistons' outside shooting. When they go small, the Lakers need to send everybody back to attack the glass on a missed shot.


The Lakers are going to have a tough time winning game 5, much less running the table and squeaking out another title. The big question for me is how Shaq will feel with only a day's rest; if he's able to dominate like in game 4, the Lakers should have a fighting chance.

 

[elindholm]

I just hope that Laker fans will remember this the next time they're getting the benefit of the calls. Officials do have a big part in determining who wins. The winner will never admit this, and the loser is afraid to bring it up because of being labeled a whiner. But it's true anyway. Some Laker fans (probably not LSM) have let themselves believe all along that officiating doesn't make a difference. Now, at last, they're being forced to see that it does.

But ... it's not the only difference. Just as the Lakers probably would have won in other years without the officials' help -- well, except in 2000, but never mind that -- they'd be in trouble so far in this series no matter how the games were being called. That said, I think they do have a good chance of coming back. If the officials start calling just a few more interior fouls against the Pistons, it completely changes the outlook of the game.

If I were Phil Jackson, I don't know what I'd do, because what the Lakers need now is actual coaching, rather than just the avuncular presence of a self-satisfied seer. But if I were another coach in charge of the Lakers, I'd suggest this:

1. Get in Hamilton's way more when he comes off of screens. Bump his hip, get an elbow into his ribs, whatever. If the officials start calling fouls, complain and demand equal calls on the other end for Bryant.

2. Tell O'Neal to be patient when he gets the ball. It still looks to me like he's hurrying because he's afraid of going to the line. Even his rushed shots went in last night, but the Lakers need to get the officials into the habit of calling fouls on the Pistons. O'Neal should give a pump fake or two and draw solid contact, and if he misses his free throws, that's okay.

3. Get people moving without the ball. The Pistons' defense is too good for one-on-one play, and the main reason O'Neal didn't get the ball more reliably is because there weren't any passing lanes. Even if O'Neal scores 50 points, other Lakers need to score 40. How are they going to do that?

4. Tell the role players to stop being so scared and just shoot the damn ball. Defense is easy when the offense is playing two-on-five. Every time someone other than O'Neal misses a shot, the whole team looks angry and guilty. That has to stop. Everyone needs to be a threat to score, and everyone has to be ready to put the ball in the basket when given the chance.

5. Let a guard get a jump start on a fast break when the Pistons put up a shot. Right now the Pistons have five players going for offensive rebounds. That strategy has to be punished. Tell the Laker bigs to block out hard and immediately look down the court once they have the ball. It might take two passes (or a dribble and a pass) to get the ball there, but make more of a commitment to running. They'll still give up second shots, but at least they'll get some compensating scores on the other end.

6. Find someone on the coaching staff that Bryant trusts and get him to explain that Bryant isn't helping himself by tanking. Even if he hates O'Neal and Jackson, his legacy as a player will be gauged by what he does in the next three games. He's too good for personal squabbles to bring him down: the great players rise above such pettiness, even when it's from the people who are supposed to support them. If he wants to leave, fine, but leave a winner -- even if that means that everyone else will get the credit.

I don't know, that's a start.

 

[LakeShowMan]

I think the officiating in the last game was terrible, but not necessarily one-sided. In the second quarter, the Lakers didn't adjust well to the change in officiating patterns from game 3; in the fourth quarter, the refs called a foul whenever anybody fell on the ground away from the ball, but Fisher was the only Laker who seemed to pick up on it, though. Still, the Pistons did benefit from the way the referees called the game.

The other three games, I don't think the Lakers have any argument at all. They usually get most of their FTA from Shaq, and the Pistons aren't fouling Shaq on purpose like most teams do (as you can tell by looking at his shooting %). On defense, the Lakers are constantly slapping at the ballhandler, and they're slow to move in when the Pistons drive the lane--face it, they're slow in general, which you'd expect since many of them are old guys with bad wheels.

On offense, the Lakers aren't driving. They're taking contested jumpers, and the refs aren't bailing them out.

Plus, the Pistons have been ahead for almost the entire series, and the team that's behind typically does most of the fouling.
_______________

If I'm Phil, I know that the Lakers have to go to Shaq early in the clock. That's the only way the Lakers have been breaking down the Pistons' defense. I tell Kobe to drive when he can and get it to Shaq when he can't, because Kobe isn't getting good shots when Shaq doesn't touch the ball.

I'd scrap the triangle for the most part and put Kobe at PG, and tell him that the only way the Lakers are going to win is if he gets a triple-double. The Pistons are cutting off Kobe's driving lanes with their zone, but Kobe has to drive anyway, so that the defense collapses and the players he passes to are wide open when they get the ball.

I guess I'd have to go small, but I'd play the guys who might make a perimeter shot or two if they're open. That means as little of Gary Payton as possible unless he's posting up.

On defense, I'd try to make the Pistons shoot quickly off the catch or the dribble instead of giving them driving lanes or wide-open perimeter shots. The Lakers need to foul less and take their chances with the Pistons' outside shooting. When they go small, the Lakers need to send everybody back to attack the glass on a missed shot.


The Lakers are going to have a tough time winning game 5, much less running the table and squeaking out another title. The big question for me is how Shaq will feel with only a day's rest; if he's able to dominate like in game 4, the Lakers should have a fighting chance.

:notworthy
Just a tremendous post. Not a word in there I can disagree with.