Lampe will be a better center than the Suns have had in a long time...

[SweetD]

You should see the tread of Lampe on Real GM
http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=197760

Maybe we should start something ala: Boldin thread on Cards board? What you think???

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

i was very impressed by lampe. not only was he hitting his j, but he was using the j to set up defenders for drives. that speaks volumes about his basketball IQ.

yeah, i think he did travel on the hook, but man was that smooth.

finally i think his defense stunk. he even got beat off the dribble when playing down low in the zone. i thought it odd that they'd put him on the wing in the zone instead of the middle (where amare was squating). his lack of lateral quickness is really exposed on the wing.

overall he showed me a lot. his jumper is going to be extremely useful keeping centers out of the lane and harassing amare.

this kid's got potential.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by Ouchie-Z-Clown

finally i think his defense stunk. he even got beat off the dribble when playing down low in the zone. i thought it odd that they'd put him on the wing in the zone instead of the middle (where amare was squating). his lack of lateral quickness is really exposed on the wing.

They had him defending Bobby Simmons, a 6'6" forward which was challenge when he got beat. He cut guys off several times, so I did not think he looked that bad.

Overall I thought Lampe played pretty well on defense considering he has not played much and doesn't have much experience with the rotations. The main blunders near the end came when Casey left his man to help Lampe, rather than Lampe making the mistakes.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

okay, here's my question - why must we ALWAYS double team EVERYONE when they have their back to the basket (whether they're actually in the post or not)?

we have taller guys guarding smaller guys and we're still doubling! i swear, we double someone every friggin' time down the court. and our rotations are not nearly crisp enough to recover. i hate our defense. and if our defense is the same next year, i will hate d'antoni.

 

[sly fly]

Originally posted by Jerbob
Why? Name 3 centers that you would describe as explosive. You can be a great center with no explosiveness.

C'mon now. You know what I mean.

Lampe needs to develop the explosiveness in finishing after fouls. Or, finishing at the end of the break. Or, being able to explode towards the rim in traffic.

No young guy has that (except Lebron).

He won't even learn how to use his body for a few more years.

BTW, Rik Smits was explosive. Patrick Ewing. Alonzo Mourning. Hell, Andrew Lang was explosive for 15 minutes.

 

[Jerbob]

Originally posted by sly fly
C'mon now. You know what I mean.
BTW, Rik Smits was explosive. Patrick Ewing. Alonzo Mourning. Hell, Andrew Lang was explosive for 15 minutes.

Yeah, but Lampe doesn't have to be a Morning or Ewing to be the best center that we have had in a long time. Look at who our starting centers have been: Little Jake, Scott Williams, Tsakalidis, Luc Longley, "Hot Rod" Williams, Joe Klein, Oliver Miller, Andrew Lang, Mark West, James Edwards. I know I am forgetting somebody in there, but that is not exactly a list of great centers. Who in that list would you call an offensive threat??? Who can dominate the boards? Williams and Miller were decent shot blockers, but none of them exactly controlled the paint??

We have had some solid forwards playing out of position at center over the years, Uncle Cliffy, Tom Chambers, Googs, (pre-seizure and knee blow out), Rodney Rodgers, McDyess, Danny Manning, Sir Charles, going all the way back to Alvin Adams. But none of them were really centers.

If Lampe can be someonewith enough offensive game that the opposing center acutually needs to guard carefully, gets 8-10 boards a night, doesn't get utterly abused on the low block by opposing big men, and blocks enough shots that people think twice about going to the hole, then he will be the best center we have had since the mid-80s.

And Lang was explosive? If by that you mean he could push Manute Bol out of the way for a dunk from 1.5 feet away, then I suppose that he was, but he really didn't have an explosive offensive game at all. He rebounded, scored on put backs and on really short shots when he was open, but that was about it from my recollection of the ancient days when he played for the Suns.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Hate to burst your bubble, but right now Lampe is more of a PF than a Center as well.

 

[Jerbob]

That bubble was burst loooooong, looooong ago. It has been so long since we have had a legit center that about anything is a step up.

Actually, I would probably say that Amare is the best center that we have had in the last 10 years. He plays the position as well as any of the scrubs we've had for the last long while.

As a Suns fan, if you want to talk about players at one position and have fond memories, you have to talk point guards.

KJ, Kidd, Cassell, Nash, Marbury. . . . Ahhhhh, the good old days.

 

[Joe Mama]

Originally posted by Jerbob
That bubble was burst loooooong, looooong ago. It has been so long since we have had a legit center that about anything is a step up.

Actually, I would probably say that Amare is the best center that we have had in the last 10 years. He plays the position as well as any of the scrubs we've had for the last long while.

As a Suns fan, if you want to talk about players at one position and have fond memories, you have to talk point guards.

KJ, Kidd, slick Sam Cassell , Nash, Marbury. . . . Ahhhhh, the good old days.

Sam Cassell might have been a Phoenix Sun briefly, but I know I don't really look back at his tenure with any fond memories.

Joe Mama

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by thegrahamcrackr
Hate to burst your bubble, but right now Lampe is more of a PF than a Center as well.

During the 1980's the Rockets had Ralph Sampson and Hakeem Olajuwon. More recently the Spurs had Robinson and Duncan. Did it matter on offense which was center and which was power forward?

On offense, it is not out of the question that Amare could be at center and Lampe at PF - but it makes no difference. Lampe is big enough that he should be able to battle some of the big centers on defense. On offense, having an athletic center who can play PF or the high post works for me.

BTW, I expect that next year we will see Carbakapa a the high post some. He is not strong enough to defense the position, but he has the skills set to be able to contribute once he gets his confidence back.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Hm, it appears people are taking more from my comment than I intended.

People were making a big deal about Lampe being a center, and we would actually field a real 5, not a PF in disguise. I was merely pointing out that Lampe is more of a PF body wise than a center.

Of course, this means absolutely nothing. 95% of teams play PFs as centers. There just aren't many true centers anymore. That isn't bcause there is a lack of big guys, but it is because every other position has gained a few inches in the last few seasons.

IMO, the only time it really matters if your center is really a power forward, is if your power forward is really a small forward. In other words, it is fine to field 2 PFs at the same time, you run into trouble if your only PF is playing as a center.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by thegrahamcrackr
Hm, it appears people are taking more from my comment than I intended.

People were making a big deal about Lampe being a center, and we would actually field a real 5, not a PF in disguise. I was merely pointing out that Lampe is more of a PF body wise than a center.

Of course, this means absolutely nothing. 95% of teams play PFs as centers. There just aren't many true centers anymore. That isn't bcause there is a lack of big guys, but it is because every other position has gained a few inches in the last few seasons.

IMO, the only time it really matters if your center is really a power forward, is if your power forward is really a small forward. In other words, it is fine to field 2 PFs at the same time, you run into trouble if your only PF is playing as a center.

Most of the PF's playing center are a lot smaller than Lampe. At 7'0" and 275, he is as big or bigger than most centers.

The only guys that are clearly bigger are Shaq, Yao, and Ostertag. Lampe is taller than Curry and is heavier than Magloire, Hayward, Ilgauskas, Nesterovic, Ratliff, Dampier, and Camby.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

I was pretty sure he was 6'11.

Also, it was my understanding that the 275 pounds that is listed is from training camp with NY. It was publicised that the NY coaching staff felt he was over weight, and made him loose a significant amount of bulk.

I haven't really looked closely, but I would say he is more in the 255-260 range.

 

[elindholm]

He does not look 275 to me. Isn't Tsakalidis 285? Lampe looks considerably less solid and strong than Tsakalidis.

 

[Ryanwb]

Originally posted by elindholm
He does not look 275 to me. Isn't Tsakalidis 285? Lampe looks considerably less solid and strong than Tsakalidis.

Lampe looked chubby to me the first time I saw him

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Originally posted by elindholm
He does not look 275 to me. Isn't Tsakalidis 285? Lampe looks considerably less solid and strong than Tsakalidis.

I beat you by 3 minutes!

You may have made the playoffs, but at least I can get my points out faster than you (at least tonight)

 

[elindholm]

I beat you by 3 minutes!

You may have made the playoffs, but at least I can get my points out faster than you

Heh, actually I was just trying to follow up your post in agreement. I was going to quote a bit of it, but thought it wasn't necessary. Geez, it's like no one expects me to agree with them!

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Lol, I figured that was the case, I more or less wanted to beat you at something since I went on the ridiculous loosing spree at the end of the season.

 

[George O'Brien]

It is shame you were slow, considering how big the prizes are.

Actually, at the start of the season Lampe was reported to be terribly out of shape. He does not appear fat, but I'm sure he needs to work a lot on his strength. We've been hearing that he has been mixing it up with Whte in practice, which is certainly a form of weight lifhting.

Big Jake was certainly strong. I'm not sure he was strong like Jahidi is strong, but he could bang around with the big players. But Jake is a lot slower than White, which means he is not on the same planet as Lampe from a speed standpoint.

It will be interesting to see if Lampe defenses Olowokandi. Candi man has not been scoring a lot lately, but he used to be a threat in the low block. He is about the same size as Lampe, listed at 7'0" 270, so it could be an interesting test.

 

[Errntknght]

George O' >>Actually, his outside shooting is my main concern. He first has to establish himself on the inside by doing the dirty work, getting offensive rebounds, blocking out, scrambling for balls, etc. Having a center who can shoot from the outside is a luxury, but having a strong inside presence is a necessity if the Suns are going to prevent opponents from double teaming Amare everytime he touches the ball.<<

I think you have it backward... the key to keeping Amare from being double teamed by two big players is to have Lampe be a threat from the outside. If he can be effective down low that's a bonus. For the time being it is probably better to have him working in close to get him more in the flow of the game.

One problem with him out high now is that D'Antoni's offense has nothing for him to do except set screens and be a relief valve. If Mike ever gets around to creating an offensive plan that actively involves a high post passer, we'll have something to judge him on. I think it's a serious question as to whether Mike will ever do such a thing - judging from what he's doing against zones he seems to have a very poor grasp of designing offensive schemes.

I'd say that Lampe is looking very good on defense for a rookie with almost no playing time. He completely frustrated Melvin Ely and he held his own against Brand. The one time Brand did drive around him, he got out of control in the process and bowled over Harvey for an offensive foul. Yeah, Maggette beat him off the dribble but the time Simmons got by him, it appeared to me that Lampe was forcing him baseline expecting help that didn't materialize. For a man of his size, I'd say his lateral mobility is fine - I'd much rather have him defending as SF on the wing than Jake or Jahidi. In fact, I'd rather have him than Jake defending any player on any part of the floor.

All around, IMO, Lampe is already the best center we have. Now it remains to start building up his playing time. Frankly I'm a lot more worried about D'Antoni being able to coach than about Lampe being able to play.

 

[Errntknght]

"Hell, Andrew Lang was explosive for 15 minutes. "

I guess I missed that game.

 

[SweetD]

Don't forget Larry Nance!

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by Errntknght
George O' >>Actually, his outside shooting is my main concern. He first has to establish himself on the inside by doing the dirty work, getting offensive rebounds, blocking out, scrambling for balls, etc. Having a center who can shoot from the outside is a luxury, but having a strong inside presence is a necessity if the Suns are going to prevent opponents from double teaming Amare everytime he touches the ball.<<

I think you have it backward... the key to keeping Amare from being double teamed by two big players is to have Lampe be a threat from the outside. If he can be effective down low that's a bonus. For the time being it is probably better to have him working in close to get him more in the flow of the game.

One problem with him out high now is that D'Antoni's offense has nothing for him to do except set screens and be a relief valve. If Mike ever gets around to creating an offensive plan that actively involves a high post passer, we'll have something to judge him on. I think it's a serious question as to whether Mike will ever do such a thing - judging from what he's doing against zones he seems to have a very poor grasp of designing offensive schemes.

I'd say that Lampe is looking very good on defense for a rookie with almost no playing time. He completely frustrated Melvin Ely and he held his own against Brand. The one time Brand did drive around him, he got out of control in the process and bowled over Harvey for an offensive foul. Yeah, Maggette beat him off the dribble but the time Simmons got by him, it appeared to me that Lampe was forcing him baseline expecting help that didn't materialize. For a man of his size, I'd say his lateral mobility is fine - I'd much rather have him defending as SF on the wing than Jake or Jahidi. In fact, I'd rather have him than Jake defending any player on any part of the floor.

All around, IMO, Lampe is already the best center we have. Now it remains to start building up his playing time. Frankly I'm a lot more worried about D'Antoni being able to coach than about Lampe being able to play.

With Voskuhl and White and center, it is obvious why the Suns offense does not run through them. Neither guy catches the ball cleanly. The Suns did run a couple of plays through Carbakapa at the high post in one game, but then went away from it.

I am sorry I wasn't clear about what I want Lampe to be doing. I like him shooting from the foul line and don't like him shooting three's, even once he starts hittimg them because he is no where close to being able to rebound from that far out.

At the same time, I would love to see Lampe slide to the weak side when Amare gets double teamed on the wing because he can either catch a pass or be in position for an offensive rebound.

BTW, one of the reasons why White is so much more effective than Voskuhl under the basket is that it is easy to knock the ball out of Jake's hands but not from White. It is hard for White to get ahold of the ball, but once he has it no one is going to grab it away.

 

[Errntknght]

George, if we were primarily using a frontcourt of Zarke, Amare and Lampe, I'd agree with you. Have Z out high as ball distributor (and a threat to shoot or drive) with Amare and Lampe in a double low post.

With a principal frontcourt of Marion, Amare and Lampe - and assuming Lampe is a good passer - I'd certainly explore the alignment of Lampe in the high post with Amare in the low post and Marion working back and forth on the baseline. The primary benefit is to keep one of the opponents best paint defenders occupied well away from the hoop. While I mentioned Amare as the beneficiary of that, it would also be of value to Marion plus JJ and Barbosa when they penetrated. A secondary benefit would be that Lampe would be situated to operate a pick & roll or pick & fade or a pinch-post maneuver. As far as offensive rebounding is concerned this is essentially trading Marion vs. opponents SF for Lampe vs. oppnents center. I think the edge is to Marion vs. opponents SF, though that might remain to be seen. I also see a slight benefit on the transition to defense because we'd have a big defender back more quickly.

When I talk about that alignment I don't mean that it's static - I'd expect to have Lampe drop low to set a down screen for Marion popping out and curling at the foul line. Then set a crossing screen for Amare. The reverse seqence could be used, too, of course. Lampe and Amare could change positions temporarily, say by means of Amare setting a back pick for Lampe. Or start with Lampe low then exchange with him setting the back pick for Amare. In the case where Marion popped out we'd be in double low post temporarily. In the main alignment, when the ball goes into Amare, Lampe would dive down the middle if he catches his man peeking or going to double. I like this threat with Lampe as he seems to finish very well.

This is nothing radical and we've seen how effective it can be with Divac & Kings or Sabonis & Blazers. It won't work if Lampe is a crappy passer but with Amare threatening on the low block he doesn't have to be as good as they are/were to be effective. In Lampe's favor he can probably put the ball on the floor or dive without it better than either of them.