Leinart Contract/Negotiations Discussion

[kerouac9]

That's odd. Almost all reports I hear seem to think Matt's camp is the one being unreasonable.

Really? The one that I've seen has Condon calling Chris Mortenson talking about how difficult it's been to deal with the Cardinals, and Rod Graves saying that they offered Matt "a lot more money" than Jay Cutler got.

Everything else is writers speculating that Matt wants a contract more in line with Vince Young. If you can find a quote attributed to anyone that says that Matt wants Young's contract, I'll be happy to see it.

 

[40yearfan]

Mao why do you keep dredging up the past ?

If BB Snr was driving the contract talks I could see it maybe but he isn't and recent history suggests that trhe Cardinals are being very proactive on contracts.

What is the problem here ?

nidan, some guys like to dwell in the past and others will not accept that a program can change regardless of what the facts are.

 

[Cheesebeef]

nidan, some guys like to dwell in the past and others will not accept that a program can change regardless of what the facts are.

facts like last year, when we had money under the cap, a rail thin O--line with no depth, then had injuries decimate it and had a number 1 pick holdout for more than a week? Those facts are eerily similar to this year so far.

The Cards have definitely become better at talent evaluation, thanks to DG for the most part, but the whole spending money/contract thing is still a problem whether you want to admit it or not.

 

[kerouac9]

Mao why do you keep dredging up the past ?

If BB Snr was driving the contract talks I could see it maybe but he isn't and recent history suggests that trhe Cardinals are being very proactive on contracts.

What is the problem here ?

I guess that the apologists for the front office insist that the Cards have come up to speed with the rest of the league, while only them and another old-school franchise--the Bills--have holdouts in the Top 10.

It seems to me like most of the league has all their draft picks in camp. This isn't a statement--at least to me--about the Cardinals being cheap as much as it is the inability of the guy in the driver's seat to get his draft picks into camp on time.

 

[joeshmo]

but the whole spending money/contract thing is still a problem whether you want to admit it or not.

And until Mike Bidwill gets more of that control from his Father it will continue to be that way.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

Mao why do you keep dredging up the past ?

If BB Snr was driving the contract talks I could see it maybe but he isn't and recent history suggests that trhe Cardinals are being very proactive on contracts.

What is the problem here ?

The problem is you're comparing the Cardinals now to the Cardinals of five years ago and not the rest of the NFL. I want to see our draft picks signed and in camp on time like the better organizations do. Hell, I'll even let them slide on being a day or two late. But right now we're staring at two consecutive years under this new regime of our first round draft pick missing a week of training camp and that's pathetic considering Leinart is probably the most important draft pick in this organization's history.

 

[Sandan]

My understanding is that MB does have control

 

[Cheesebeef]

My understanding is that MB does have control

well, that's even more disconcerting having seen the same thing the last two years - cap room, poor O-line (without injuries) and little depth and having a problem getting 1st rounders in on time. Back to back years, that's a pattern folks - and it ain't a good one.

 

[Sandan]

So other teams do not have problems getting 1st rounders in occasionaly ?

 

[Sandan]

In fact I just noticed that the Eagles only just signed their #14 pick.

So are they cheap and clueless as well ?

 

[Cheesebeef]

So other teams do not have problems getting 1st rounders in occasionaly ?

sure they do - it's just that we do EVERY YEAR - PERIOD. Again - we'renow only one of THREE teams who haven't signed their first rounder - and that ain't an occassionally type thing - it's par for the course.

 

[Cheesebeef]

In fact I just noticed that the Eagles only just signed their #14 pick.

So are they cheap and clueless as well ?

jeez Nidan - this is just out and out freaking stupid. When the Cardinals have the track record the Eagles do of being in 4 of the last 5 NFC Title Games, or signing their picks, maybe then you can compare them to us - until then, try to get a little freaking perspective.

 

[Rivercard]

jeez Nidan - this is just out and out freaking stupid. When the Cardinals have the track record the Eagles do of being in 4 of the last 5 NFC Title Games, or signing their picks, maybe then you can compare them to us - until then, try to get a little freaking perspective.

I think you just made Nidan's point. Even a team with a good track record had a problem signing their first rounder.

 

[Lloydian]

In the years before MB, the Cardinals were one of the few teams to regularly have this problem. In the last two years, virtually every team has had this problem.

Leinart is a very unique problem. And you know they'll eventually find numbers they can agree upon, but until then, we all get to enjoy the group anxiety. Unfortunately, Warner and Navarre will just have to get a little more practice.

 

[MadCardDisease]

The Cards have definitely become better at talent evaluation, thanks to DG for the most part, but the whole spending money/contract thing is still a problem whether you want to admit it or not.

I don't know about that.

New and extended contracts like Fitz's, Rolle's, Boldin's, Wilson's and Edge's point to positive change in my opinion.

It's not all doom and gloom!

 

[Sandan]

Cheese, you are doing exactly waht the Cardinals bashers out there do.

When I point out the faults in your argument, you bounce to the next reason on your list why the Cardinals a cheap and clueless. So it goes on until we reach the level of 'Bidwill is cheap' or 'Same old Cardinals'

The point I was making is that the Cardinal record of signing picks and resiging our own free agents seems to be pretty decent now or at least similar to the other teams in the NFL.

Sure we don't have a long history of doing modern contracts but we have been doing them over the last few years.

I fail to see what our lack success in the the playoffs over the last 5 years has to do with with the Leinart situation. Would I rather he was in camp sure, am I disdapointed he is not in camp absolutly. Does that mean this is a problem of the Cardinals making, no.

Maybe it is but most reports suggest his agents are trying to move well outside the slotting box. Maybe it is the Cardinals fault but we have no real information either way. Except that we are not the only team to have a difficuty and we probably had one of the more difficult situations in the NFL, given Leinart's pre-draft expectations

 

[joeshmo]

My understanding is that MB does have control

Not Full Control. He still has his limits. Daddy still controls the money. Mike has been lobbying for more control for a while now. In fact Green, Graves, and Mike are all on the same page but cant execute their plans like they want to becuase they are limited.

After we signed our 3 UFA this past offseason Bill cut Graves, Denny, and Mike off, even though they wanted at the very least 2 more guys for depth (not starters) at the following positions, DB, LB, and OT. We even had interviews for some DB's and LB's set up but canceled them (the players didnt cancel them) after we signed Edge becuase again Bill turned off the money tree. I got this from more then just one cards insider source not just Jurecki who has been talking about it for more then a couple of weeks now.

I believe as does Jurecki and the other sources that if Mike did have full control we wouldnt be in some of these situations. He gets more and more control every year but he has yet to get control of the money.

 

[Sandan]

If you want to slam the Cardinals one can use the 'MB does not have full control' to mean that BB Snr still is activly enagged in aspects of management. Hence moving to a 'Cardinals are cheap' statement is easy.

Or

You could look at the recent history to see that the Cardinals have been signing contracts much the same as the rest of the NFL and suggest that MB is essentially in control. He will always defer to his father in public because that is the way he is, what happens behind closed doors is a different matter.

I ask you, would we have resigned Q to a new contract when we did 5 years ago ?

 

[joeshmo]

I will say this about the negotiations. It isnt just Condon, he is just the face of the negotiations. He works for an agency who also has an agent by the name of Ben Dogra. He is not the face of the negotiations but he is putting in his input and Dogra is not afriad to hold out his clients. He has more rookie holdouts then any other agent over the last 5 years if my info is correct.

From a few sources close to the situation it may be a case of to many hands in the pot that is making the negotiations a little more difficult then normal.

In this case I see it as both sides make this more difficult then it has to be.

Green doesnt like the hold out and his cut off date for Matt to be in camp and play in all 4 preseason games will be this Monday of Jurecki's interview with Green is still correct. And Matt playing in all 4 preseason games is very important.

 

[Russ Smith]

I will say this about the negotiations. It isnt just Condon, he is just the face of the negotiations. He works for an agency who also has an agent by the name of Ben Dogra. He is not the face of the negotiations but he is putting in his input and Dogra is not afriad to hold out his clients. He has more rookie holdouts then any other agent over the last 5 years if my info is correct.

From a few sources close to the situation it may be a case of to many hands in the pot that is making the negotiations a little more difficult then normal.

In this case I see it as both sides make this more difficult then it has to be.

Green doesnt like the hold out and his cut off date for Matt to be in camp and play in all 4 preseason games will be this Monday of Jurecki's interview with Green is still correct. And Matt playing in all 4 preseason games is very important.

So if he misses the cutoff this means he won't play in the first preseason game no matter what?


I agree for a probable backup QB he can't afford to miss preseason games, especially as a rookie.

Hopefully they'll get it done this weekend.

 

[joeshmo]

If you want to slam the Cardinals one can use the 'MB does not have full control' to mean that BB Snr still is activly enagged in aspects of management. Hence moving to a 'Cardinals are cheap' statement is easy.

Or

You could look at the recent history to see that the Cardinals have been signing contracts much the same as the rest of the NFL and suggest that MB is essentially in control.

First I am not slamming the Cards or slaming them for being cheap, because I know Mike's intentions and like the guy a lot. I just like you have talked to him face to face, and he came off as a sincere and genuine guy who wants to do anything to win. But there is only so much he can do until he does have full control.

Yes things have changed but some things are still the same, and that is completely clear unless you have your head in the sand. Its right in front of your face. And 2 years in a row of a more then a week long hold out and not getting the depth you need even though you have plenty of money left sounds like the same to me. Re-signing Wilson, Boldin, signing James, Giving Fitz the potentially largest rookie contract of all time are all some of the new.

And "essentially" in control does not mean full control, which is the point, and until Mike does get full control we will still see SOME of these problems.

I like Mike, I like him a lot. I dont like his father though.

 

[joeshmo]

So if he misses the cutoff this means he won't play in the first preseason game no matter what?

Thats what Denny told Jurecki. It could change but that is what has been stated as of right now.

I dont remember if he said he has to be in camp by Monday or sign his contract by monday and be in camp the day after.

He doesnt want to risk injury of Matt or a WR/RB/TE he is throwing to because they arent on the same page yet.

 

[Cheesebeef]

First I am not slamming the Cards or slaming them for being cheap, because I know Mike's intentions and like the guy a lot. I just like you have talked to him face to face, and he came off as a sincere and genuine guy who wants to do anything to win. But there is only so much he can do until he does have full control.

Yes things have changed but some things are still the same, and that is completely clear unless you have your head in the sand. Its right in front of your face. And 2 years in a row of a more then a week long hold out and not getting the depth you need even though you have plenty of money left sounds like the same to me. Re-signing Wilson, Boldin, signing James, Giving Fitz the potentially largest rookie contract of all time are all some of the new.

And "essentially" in control does not mean full control, which is the point, and until Mike does get full control we will still see SOME of these problems.

I like Mike, I like him a lot. I dont like his father though.

exactly.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

First I am not slamming the Cards or slaming them for being cheap, because I know Mike's intentions and like the guy a lot. I just like you have talked to him face to face, and he came off as a sincere and genuine guy who wants to do anything to win. But there is only so much he can do until he does have full control.

Yes things have changed but some things are still the same, and that is completely clear unless you have your head in the sand. Its right in front of your face. And 2 years in a row of a more then a week long hold out and not getting the depth you need even though you have plenty of money left sounds like the same to me. Re-signing Wilson, Boldin, signing James, Giving Fitz the potentially largest rookie contract of all time are all some of the new.

And "essentially" in control does not mean full control, which is the point, and until Mike does get full control we will still see SOME of these problems.

I like Mike, I like him a lot. I dont like his father though.

No doubt feelings shared by MJ and your unamed "insider" sources, right?

 

[joeshmo]

No doubt feelings shared by MJ and your unamed "insider" sources, right?

They arent unamed. If you want to know it is Urban, Sommers, and someone else I wont name.

All of them have said the same thing, business wise Mike is very abrasive and can really get under peoples skin, but they all believe he truley has a passion for this team and wanting to win, and nice guy outside of the business arena.

In Urban and Sommers case they wont write an article about it but if you get a chance to talk to them they will talk with you face to face. They may even answer some of your questions, depends on the question via email. They are very approachable guys and will tell you more then they will ever write. They will also say on the radio more then they will write as well.