Leinart Contract/Negotiations Discussion

[joeshmo]

If the cap is going up by $40 million as you have said numerous times, it's a heck of a lot more than 6.5%!!! You've been kicking that figure around this whole thread. Are you now changing your mind? Do you even read what I post?

Never said it is going up 40 Mill. Thats just dumb.

I said we will have 40+ Mill in cap space next season. It is the same thing I have been kicking around this whole time.

The cap goes from 102 Mill to 109 Mill.

Dont know what you have been reading but it isnt what I have been posting.

 

[JC_AZ]

Who was supposed to send the e-mail about THURSDAYS damnit?

 

[joeshmo]

No I'm not putting words in your mouth. Same old Cardinals. You guys have been spouting that mantra forever. You aren't happy unless you have something to bitch about and this Leinhart not being signed deal has just made your day. Now you can start pointing fingers again and all is right with the world.

Tell me when Have I ever been a dark sider in the past. I have been called more often in the past of being a koolaid drinker.

To not see that there is anything to bitch about is not keeping it real. Becuase there is clearly some things to bitch about.

This team has a brand new stadium I will no longer make excuses for this team like I did last year or the beginning of this year when I made excuses about them not being able spend gauranteed money like the rest of the league. They have there stadium the gloves are off.

 

[kerouac9]

See post 779

What? Corners got huge deals four years ago? There's always a premium on cornerbacks in free agency. I was asking for deals from this offseason when the cap went up by a ton. You say that you thought some players were grossly overpaid. I'd like to know who those guys are.

 

[joeshmo]

The part of the 40 million that's deceptive is that part of the reason it's so high is that we have our own contracts expiring.

That is true for most teams. But we dont have many players contracts expiring. And the ones we do have expiring most are RFA's, EFA's, just not expensive, or wont even be re-signed.

Leonard Davis T - high.
David Macklin CB - Mid range.
Marcel Shipp RB - Min.
Robert Griffith FS - Min.
James Hodgins FB - Min.
Orlando Huff LB - Min.
James Darling LB - Min.
Fred Wakefield T - Min.
Gerald Hayes LB - ?????
Kenny King DT - Min.
Robert Tate CB - Min.
Rohan Davey QB - Min.
Isaac Keyes LB - Min.
Anton Palepoi DE - Min.
Damien Anderson RB - Min.
Darnell Dockett DT - RFA
Alex Step C - RFA
Nick Leckey C - RFA
John Navarre QB - RFA
Eric Edwards TE - RFA
Adam Bergen TE - EFA
Lamont Reid CB - EFA
Ernest Shazor S - EFA
John Bronson TE - EFA
Carlyle Holiday WR - EFA
Ben Hall TE - EFA
Andy Stokes TE - EFA
Zamir Cobb WR - EFA
Tyler King DE - EFA
Dante Ellington OL - EFA
Alan Reuber OL - EFA
Roger Robinson RB - EFA
Jeff Otis QB - EFA
Rolando Cantu G - EFA
Jamaal Branch RB - EFA
Kyle Schmitt OC - EFA

 

[joeshmo]

Monday would be great as Matt will have a full week to get in the flow again and play a mquarter next week.

GBR
40

In camp by Monday for me. Which means signing a contract by the day before.

 

[Russ Smith]

That is true for most teams. But we dont have many players contracts expiring. And the ones we do have expiring most are RFA's, EFA's, just not expensive, or wont even be re-signed.

Leonard Davis T - high.
David Macklin CB - Mid range.
Marcel Shipp RB - Min.
Robert Griffith FS - Min.
James Hodgins FB - Min.
Orlando Huff LB - Min.
James Darling LB - Min.
Fred Wakefield T - Min.
Gerald Hayes LB - ?????
Kenny King DT - Min.
Robert Tate CB - Min.
Rohan Davey QB - Min.
Isaac Keyes LB - Min.
Anton Palepoi DE - Min.
Damien Anderson RB - Min.
Darnell Dockett DT - RFA
Alex Step C - RFA
Nick Leckey C - RFA
John Navarre QB - RFA
Eric Edwards TE - RFA
Adam Bergen TE - EFA
Lamont Reid CB - EFA
Ernest Shazor S - EFA
John Bronson TE - EFA
Carlyle Holiday WR - EFA
Ben Hall TE - EFA
Andy Stokes TE - EFA
Zamir Cobb WR - EFA
Tyler King DE - EFA
Dante Ellington OL - EFA
Alan Reuber OL - EFA
Roger Robinson RB - EFA
Jeff Otis QB - EFA
Rolando Cantu G - EFA
Jamaal Branch RB - EFA
Kyle Schmitt OC - EFA

Agreed, I just wanted to be clear. For years every offseason we'd hear the Cards have 20 million to spend in FA and fans would go nuts when we didn't, and part of the reason was, we'd have ~ 20 of our own FA's, you either have to sign those guys, or replace them, so the stated figure was very misleading. Once you allowed for filling your roster, you had much less to spend on key FA's.

But that's not so clearly the case this year, you can sign everyone on that list(or a replacement) and still have quite a bit of caproom for other signings.

 

[joeshmo]

But that's not so clearly the case this year, you can sign everyone on that list(or a replacement) and still have quite a bit of caproom for other signings.

You werent voted one of the smartest posters here for nothing.

 

[mesacardsfan]

Get the damn thing done!!! Just want positive new stories tired of the negative crap.

 

[Sandan]

First off all do you think I am just making up this 40 Mill.? You think I am just spouting off a lie. What a laod of crap. I know for a fact that is how much we will have as of today. For Example from John Clayton after we signed Edge and the other 2 FA's. But not before Wells and the rookies.

Just the reverse, the effort for me to replicate you reasoning would be far to great [assuming I could even do it] and I hate relying on something I can't verify.

It's more you conclusions I'm not sure I agree with. Being honest one of the main reasons I think there is a flaw in your logic is that, if I understand you you are saying that there is no way we can possibly spend the cash we will have next year.

If this is true, then the Cardinals front office is stupid and as I know for a fact that RG isn't stupid and plans his moves carefully, I'm concluding there are other explanations other than yours.

One of which is I, like 40 expect the players salary demands to ramp up along with the cap.

 

[joeshmo]

Being honest one of the main reasons I think there is a flaw in your logic is that, if I understand you you are saying that there is no way we can possibly spend the cash we will have next year.

They can spend it there is way. The question is, Will they spend it?

You know that i was with you when argueing with others about Gauranteed contracts the beiginning of the season. I stuck up for the Cards in saying that they dont have the same revenue streams that other teams do without the stadium. I was sticking up for them. Now that they have a sold out stadium I just cant stick up for them any more. I wont do it.

 

[joeshmo]

If this is true, then the Cardinals front office is stupid and as I know for a fact that RG isn't stupid and plans his moves carefully, I'm concluding there are other explanations other than yours.

One of which is I, like 40 expect the players salary demands to ramp up along with the cap.

Stupid, no i dont think graves or Mikey are stupid. I think they are handcuffed and limited in what they can with the good plan they do have.

I know you are going to hate this but I have tried my hardest not to use the word cheap.

What other explaination could there be to have 10 Mill this year and 40 Mill next year. I am trying my hardest to find something other then the word you hate mentioned. If you dont want that word being used then explain to me. Why we still have 10/40 left. I want someone to prove me wrong in the worst way.

 

[joeshmo]

One of which is I, like 40 expect the players salary demands to ramp up along with the cap.

Once again.

1. The cap is determined by how much teams make.

2. The cap is only going up 6.5%. Why would that cause a feed frenzy.

3. The cap went by 7% this offseason, if 7.0% wouldnt cause a feeding frenzy why would 6.5%.

4. Everyone thought this year when the new CBA hit that there would be greatly overratted contracts, but there wasnt any more then the usuall.

Just to put it into perspective -

Now 40 Mill wont go as far as it used to but we signed 3 Players(Edge, Brown, Clancy) and Wells this offseason for a total of - $17,587,500.

Now I will even give you a huge increase in average contract more so then the 6.5% in this excersize. I will make it 25%. We would be able to sign just as good of a FA class and pay(if we use the 25% inflation instead of the 6.5 it should be) we would be spending $21,984,375.00 next year. Still gives us more then 15 Mill of cap space to work with. Which is still plenty for rookies, injuries, PS, and re-signings. And thats with using a huge increase in player inflation that wont happen. So it isnt needed to keep the 10 Mill this year for extensions, which is the reasoning managament will give you when asked about the 10 Mill we have left.

 

[JC_AZ]

Some random frustration...

MJ is saying that the Leinart camp wants this deal to be done by monday

Then maybe the "Leinart camp" should stick around and get it done, rather than play the used car salesman game and go away and keep ya hangin' forever while they get you frustrated and anxious to get the thing over with...I am sure that RG is a little more experienced than that... ML was picked 10th, no matter his "potential" (see Andre Wadsworth), give him the slotted money with some QBOF "consideration" and provide incentives to EARN the bigger deal after a couple of years (like REAL LIFE), then give him whatever it takes IF HE IS THAT GOOD!

 

[40yearfan]

Never said it is going up 40 Mill. Thats just dumb.

I said we will have 40+ Mill in cap space next season. It is the same thing I have been kicking around this whole time.

The cap goes from 102 Mill to 109 Mill.

Dont know what you have been reading but it isnt what I have been posting.

Well I guess I pay as much attention to your posts as you pay to mine. You gave the distinct impression that the cap was going up $40 million and the Cards were going to be floating in money. Going up $7 million dollars is no big woop. When you make allowances for resigning players, etc., I'll be willing to bet you that the Cards will be within 2 % of the cap in spending, just like they have been the past 2 years and will be this year.

You refuse to accept that the Cards have a plan and it's working because it isn't your plan. And the beauty of it is, you will never have to answer for your plan if it doesn't work because it won't be implemented.

For my money's worth, I'll stick with the plan the professionals are using. Those that can do. Those that can't---teach.

 

[Pariah]

For my money's worth, I'll stick with the plan the professionals are using.

Does that mean you'll start advocating they spend money to fill holes like other NFL teams?

 

[English on tour]

this is my officail 'i'm getting sick of this BS' post - Get him signed and get him taking some snaps NOW!

 

[kerouac9]

Well I guess I pay as much attention to your posts as you pay to mine. You gave the distinct impression that the cap was going up $40 million and the Cards were going to be floating in money. Going up $7 million dollars is no big woop. When you make allowances for resigning players, etc., I'll be willing to bet you that the Cards will be within 2 % of the cap in spending, just like they have been the past 2 years and will be this year.

You refuse to accept that the Cards have a plan and it's working because it isn't your plan. And the beauty of it is, you will never have to answer for your plan if it doesn't work because it won't be implemented.

For my money's worth, I'll stick with the plan the professionals are using. Those that can do. Those that can't---teach.

I think this is where the departure is, 40. I think we all agree that there's a plan. The problem is that while the plan has been in action, the team has gone 5-11, 6-10, and 5-11. How is it that the plan is working? Every season this team is "decimated" by two or three injuries that suddenly make it non-competitive.

 

[joeshmo]

You gave the distinct impression that the cap was going up $40 million and the Cards were going to be floating in money.

You are losing it.

Please tell me where that impression came from and why you are the only one to not know what I was talking about.

Here is the exact words of the first time I brought it up.

"So we are going to have 40 Mill in cap space next season."

How in what world does that mean, "the cap was going up $40 million"

I dont know how that could be any more clear.

When I say we have 10 Mill in cap space this season did you think I was talking about getting 10 More mill to spend this season?

And 40 Mill in cap space(not 40 Mill increase, just want to make that clear for you), is floating in money.

Keep on making excuse and misinterpretations to do anything you possible can to stick up for this teams managment(just BB in my case). The have made strides and that isnt in debate and will fight just as hard in that debate for the cards as I am against them in this deabte. But the debate is that there are still some very much so clear cut issues with the way still do business today. To not see that is to have your eyes shut.

 

[joeshmo]

I think this is where the departure is, 40. I think we all agree that there's a plan. The problem is that while the plan has been in action, the team has gone 5-11, 6-10, and 5-11. How is it that the plan is working? Every season this team is "decimated" by two or three injuries that suddenly make it non-competitive.

You havent heard yet. We are on a 5 year plan.

 

[joeshmo]

Well I guess I pay as much attention to your posts as you pay to mine. You gave the distinct impression that the cap was going up $40 million and the Cards were going to be floating in money. Going up $7 million dollars is no big woop. When you make allowances for resigning players, etc., I'll be willing to bet you that the Cards will be within 2 % of the cap in spending, just like they have been the past 2 years and will be this year.

You refuse to accept that the Cards have a plan and it's working because it isn't your plan. And the beauty of it is, you will never have to answer for your plan if it doesn't work because it won't be implemented.

For my money's worth, I'll stick with the plan the professionals are using. Those that can do. Those that can't---teach.

Please tell me what other team in the league has or will ever use the 10/40 plan. I guess the cards may be on to something. Revolutionary plan. there pln has done nothing but put loosing records together. Until they prove otherwise their plan sucks.

And again. The Cards are not and have not been within 2% of spending this year nor any other year. Having 8 Mill. by week 8 or 9 does nothing for winning. Once again Read Russ posts, what do you have to debate about that.

Because they are prefessional means it is working? Please tell me once agian how what they are doing is working? And being a professional means jack sqaut, all it means is that they get paid more. I have known plenty of professional who have no clue what they are doing, I bet you could say the same thing being such the all business guru that you are.

I put people into 3 groups.

Those who only want to see the negatives. And after 50 years of losing who to tell them they dont have a point as history is on there side. But at the same time they will never listen about the positives.

Then you have those who refuse to listen or see any negatives what so ever. We could have 20 mill in cap space this year and we still would be in this debate with a ton of excusing being made, but what if a team cuts a really goo player, what if a team trades a really good player, there was no one to sign for a fair deal, but we neeed to extend players (which is fallacy concerning the cap unless you are having cap troubles or look to have cap troubles in the future and we are in neither case), and my all time favorite - we are planning on the future.

Then you have those that see the negatives and the positives. Realists.

Let me ak you guys a question. Would you still be happy with the team if they had 20 Mill. in cap space this offseason and 60 Mill in cap space next offseason(not 60 mill raise but CAP SPACE). Or would we hear the mantra, "But the team has a plan, they are professionals"

 

[joeshmo]

When you make allowances for resigning players, etc., I'll be willing to bet you that the Cards will be within 2 % of the cap in spending,

Why not spend to win this year? A year in a brand new stadium when you have this town by the balls.

Why?

Especially knowing that you have plenty of cap space next season to extend them, sign another group of FA's as good as this year, still have money left over for rookies, injuries, PS, and any other contingency plan you want to think of, and still have money left over for the this future plan that has never materialized. When are we going to stop planning for the future and start winning now? Enough planning already. I would be on your side of the debate if we were on year 1 or 2 of a plan, but alas we are not.

What is not to get?

 

[40yearfan]

You are losing it.

Please tell me where that impression came from and why you are the only one to not know what I was talking about.

Here is the exact words of the first time I brought it up.

"So we are going to have 40 Mill in cap space next season."

How in what world does that mean, "the cap was going up $40 million"

I dont know how that could be any more clear.

When I say we have 10 Mill in cap space this season did you think I was talking about getting 10 More mill to spend this season?

And 40 Mill in cap space(not 40 Mill increase, just want to make that clear for you), is floating in money.

Keep on making excuse and misinterpretations to do anything you possible can to stick up for this teams managment(just BB in my case). The have made strides and that isnt in debate and will fight just as hard in that debate for the cards as I am against them in this deabte. But the debate is that there are still some very much so clear cut issues with the way still do business today. To not see that is to have your eyes shut.

Do you ever get tired of hearing yourself talk? I'll bet your wife/children are miserable people having to listen to how great you are all the time. Must be nice to be perfect. Now if you can just get someone else to agree with you, you should be alright.

 

[40yearfan]

You havent heard yet. We are on a 5 year plan.

Yes, God forbid that we don't have immediate action. Spend every dime right now so we won't have to worry about spending anything later. Don't worry about the $147 million we have to repay for the stadium, we have cap space left so it's obvious we have cash just sitting around. We still have checks left in the check book.

 

[40yearfan]

Please tell me what other team in the league has or will ever use the 10/40 plan. I guess the cards may be on to something. Revolutionary plan. there pln has done nothing but put loosing records together. Until they prove otherwise their plan sucks.

And again. The Cards are not and have not been within 2% of spending this year nor any other year. Having 8 Mill. by week 8 or 9 does nothing for winning. Once again Read Russ posts, what do you have to debate about that.

So how much cap space did the Cards have left in 2004 and 2005? You just made a statement that they are not spending within 2% of the cap, so back it up.

Because they are prefessional means it is working? Please tell me once agian how what they are doing is working? And being a professional means jack sqaut, all it means is that they get paid more. I have known plenty of professional who have no clue what they are doing, I bet you could say the same thing being such the all business guru that you are.

I put people into 3 groups.

Those who only want to see the negatives. And after 50 years of losing who to tell them they dont have a point as history is on there side. But at the same time they will never listen about the positives.

Then you have those who refuse to listen or see any negatives what so ever. We could have 20 mill in cap space this year and we still would be in this debate with a ton of excusing being made, but what if a team cuts a really goo player, what if a team trades a really good player, there was no one to sign for a fair deal, but we neeed to extend players (which is fallacy concerning the cap unless you are having cap troubles or look to have cap troubles in the future and we are in neither case), and my all time favorite - we are planning on the future.

Then you have those that see the negatives and the positives. Realists.

Let me ak you guys a question. Would you still be happy with the team if they had 20 Mill. in cap space this offseason and 60 Mill in cap space next offseason(not 60 mill raise but CAP SPACE). Or would we hear the mantra, "But the team has a plan, they are professionals"

Why spend time answering hypothetical questions? It hasn't happened. I'm satisfied with the way the Cards are doing it right now, so your question is meaningless.

I can understand why you think it's ridiculous to plan for the future. You have to have patience for that.