Levi v. Potter for LT -- Winston v. Massie for RT

[SECTION 11]

If BA's passing game has to feed off of play action, then Levi Brown is a no brainer. This isn't Kurt Warner and CKW, this is play action bombs.

 

[Darkside]

This thread has become top notch because of the info and research you have posted.

Agree with this. It's not just K9 though, I think the thread is informative from both points of view (though I tend to favor Levi more than most).

We should all be careful not to pick style over substance however. K9's presentation can't be beat, with the screenshots and film study, but there's still only a limited # of plays he can disseminate and relay in any given amount of time and he's coming from a position where he already has an opinion, so it's not like he's looking for every bad Levi play. Rugby also has a valid point and has supported his views in just as convincing a fashion in my opinion. It's been a great read even though I may not agree with all of it.

Carry on.

 

[Mulli]

Levi vs Potter is so much like Kolb v Skelton.


And neither will be on team in 2014.

 

[cardncubfan]

Levi vs Potter is so much like Kolb v Skelton.


And neither will be on team in 2014.

Wager! ....Wait a minute. You mean Levi & Potter right?

 

[SECTION 11]

Wager! ....Wait a minute. You mean Levi & Potter right?

I was just thinking that same thing

 

[kerouac9]

If BA's passing game has to feed off of play action, then Levi Brown is a no brainer. This isn't Kurt Warner and CKW, this is play action bombs.

It's not going to. There was a big story in the Indy paper about how that's what they WANT to go back to with their new coordinator.

That's a good comparison, though. Levi Brown is no worse, and probably better, than Mike Gandy was. The difference is the guy throwing the football.

 

[Stout]

Oh come on now.

No making up the rules mid-debate. You keep taking everything against your argument off the table.

Who you think you are? A politician from Washington?

You call out one stat site then throw them all out cause its all or nothing with stats, internet news sources and the like.

One man's offensive line stat is anothers ESPN QB rating


How about this for a good argument against

Who was knocking down Levi Brown's front door when he was released for a brief period is of time?

Nobody. That's who.

Except the Cardinals of course but that implies something as well

Sent from RM's Super phone!

I don't have to argue the way you want me to argue, K9. If I wanted to shelve my creative writing pursuits and spend all my time doing football analysis, I could show you how atrocious Levi Brown has been in pass pro. Thankfully, this is a message board, and you don't get to make up the rules.

And don't pretend you're presenting unbiased analysis. You're focusing on mostly positive performances, of which there are few, and you're spinning the negatives like it wasn't poor Levi's fault his guy got the sack. Yeah, Kolb screwed a lot up, all right, but Levi screwed up a lot too.

Presenting research and stills doesn't carry weight when you do it selectively and in a fashion biased to prove your point.

Oh, and Potter may not start, but he'll end up a better LT than Levi Brown, and far, far superior in pass pro. Bank on it.

 

[kerouac9]

I don't have to argue the way you want me to argue, K9. If I wanted to shelve my creative writing pursuits and spend all my time doing football analysis, I could show you how atrocious Levi Brown has been in pass pro. Thankfully, this is a message board, and you don't get to make up the rules.

And don't pretend you're presenting unbiased analysis. You're focusing on mostly positive performances, of which there are few, and you're spinning the negatives like it wasn't poor Levi's fault his guy got the sack. Yeah, Kolb screwed a lot up, all right, but Levi screwed up a lot too.

Presenting research and stills doesn't carry weight when you do it selectively and in a fashion biased to prove your point.

Oh, and Potter may not start, but he'll end up a better LT than Levi Brown, and far, far superior in pass pro. Bank on it.

This is the second time you've made this accusation, and it's just as much horseflop now as it was the first time you made it. What game would you like me to look at where Levi Brown was clearly terrible? I watched every offensive snap of the Bengals game; I watched every offensive snap of the Dallas game. I watched every sack and a bunch of completions and incompletions in the Ravens game from TWO YEARS AGO.

I'm not going to look for evidence that doesn't prove my point. But I WILL go look at games that people point me to as being especially bad IN THEIR MEMORIES, because I am lucky to have resources that others don't.

I've asked consistently for two things: 1) Where are Nate Potter's good games? and 2) Where are the terrible performances of Levi Brown?

I started in the humanities, and I know that there's at least some assumption that your theses have to be backed up by some kind of evidence. Please do so. Illustrate your points. Because your repetitions of "LEVI BROWN IS TEH SUX" and your ad hominem attacks against me are polluting an otherwise interesting and cordial thread.

 

[kerouac9]

But the whole point is that the play level of players from year 1 to year 2 is often fairly significant whereas the play level change of someone at Levi's experience level is negligible.

Last year's Nate Potter play doesn't mean too much unless you are assuming rookies don't progress. He may not, but that's unlikely. That's why I want a Levi Brown rookie comparison, so we can see how much he progressed. I don't care what he did 2 years ago, that doesn't tell me anything about how much Potter may or may not improve from his rookie year. We're trying to determine how good Potter can be this year as you said. So we need to have some basis to determine how much improvement he can make from rookie year to 2nd year.

But, again, that's not an apples to apples comparison. Nate Potter was so bad last year that it would take a significant improvement to get to where people like Stout and Bucky believe Levi Brown plays.

Nate Potter's tape wasn't that he have raw technique but good size and strength; his problem was that he had neither size nor technique. Yeah, he put on 15 lbs in the offseason--that gets him within 20 lbs of where Levi Brown already is.

Again, Nate Potter couldn't block a linebacker downfield 15 games into his first pro season.

 

[Quinn McCollum]

Does not really matter who they put at LT or RT or anyone on the OL. At the end of the day Palmer going to get hit and he going to get sacked. Arians offense is going to be a bunch of 5 and 7 step drop with long developing WR routes. Arizona going to give up a bunch of both because of that. No QB threw it deep as much as Luck did and no QB got hit as much as he did. It the nature of a vertical passing offense and Arians run the biggest vertical passing game.

 

[BACH]

Oh come on now.

No making up the rules mid-debate. You keep taking everything against your argument off the table.

Who you think you are? A politician from Washington?

You call out one stat site then throw them all out cause its all or nothing with stats, internet news sources and the like.

One man's offensive line stat is anothers ESPN QB rating


How about this for a good argument against

Who was knocking down Levi Brown's front door when he was released for a brief period is of time?

Nobody. That's who.

Except the Cardinals of course but that implies something as well

Sent from RM's Super phone!

The irony...

I tried to come with sound argumentation, but you conveniently ignored that and instead Misquoting that I argued that Levi was All-Pro after I explicitly wrote that I didn't think that. That's okay for this board??

BUT! Basing your opinion on analysis and facts like K9 is a NO-GO according to you...

Fantastic! BRAVO!!!

 

[Duckjake]

You have to love it when you have a LT whose strength supposedly is run blocking on a team that finished dead last in rushing attempts almost every year he has been on the roster.

Doesn't really matter though. The Cards went to the SB with Mike Gandy at LT. They can win with either Potter or Brown.

We just don't know what our offensive linemen can do as the offensive line coaching was so pitiful the last 6 years. Thankfully the brain trust that brought us Rex Hadnot and Adam Snyder and Brandon Keith while 3 of the offensive linemen who started v Green Bay in the 2009 playoffs sat on the bench or changed position got canned.

 

[BACH]

How about this for a good argument against

Who was knocking down Levi Brown's front door when he was released for a brief period is of time?

Nobody. That's who.

Really??

Then the Cardinals must have had no problem with signing him to minimum wage after no other teams had contacted him for a long period....

Argumentation FAIL!!!

After releasing Brown for Cap purposes on March 13, The Cardinals gave Brown a new 5-year $30M contract TWO days later.... If Brown had no suitors, please explain why he was re-signed to a $30M contract two days later...

Cardinals | Levi Brown released
Tue, 13 Mar 2012 13:33:58 -0700

The Arizona Cardinals have released OT Levi J. Brown, a former first-round draft choice in the 2007 NFL Draft. In the past five seasons, Brown started 75 games for the team and played in 77 games.



Read more: http://www.kffl.com/player/13472/nfl/news#ixzz2bN2LW4w3

Cardinals | Levi Brown re-signed
Thu, 15 Mar 2012 20:10:11 -0700
The Arizona Cardinals have re-signed free-agent OT Levi J. Brown to a five-year deal. Financial terms were not disclosed.


Read more: http://www.kffl.com/player/13472/nfl/news#ixzz2bN2eyxVz

 

[RugbyMuffin]

The irony...

I tried to come with sound argumentation, but you conveniently ignored that and instead Misquoting that I argued that Levi was All-Pro after I explicitly wrote that I didn't think that. That's okay for this board??

Yeah, you read that wrong.

1. I was agreeing that you are right, Levi Brown is no All-Pro, but then I said it is ridiculous to call the criticism he gets ridiculous. Cause, IMO it is. Levi Brown deserves his criticism.

2. I didn't ignore the rest of the post. I agreed with it. The only part I thought was unfair was stating that Levi Brown doesn't deserve the criticism he gets.

So, I have no idea what you are talking about.

If you want I can comment on the entire post next time, I can. Just every couple lines add a comment, " Oh you are so right about that", or "Darn tootin' can't argue with that." I will do it next time, but I am sure that I will be blasted for doing that as well, so I am not really sure how you want to be interacted with.

So again, you post was fine, and made a lot of valid points, but I didn't agree with one part of it and commented on that specific part of it.

BUT! Basing your opinion on analysis and facts like K9 is a NO-GO according to you...

Fantastic! BRAVO!!!

Again, I am fine and dandy with all the good work, and great analysis K9 did. Agree with most of it.

But, I am not going to debate and have one stat from one site be OK, and but another stat from another site not be OK.

That is JUST ME. If you have a problem with it, and feel you want to debate AND pick and choose what stats and sites are legit, then more power too you.

But, beware, you will end up debating the validity of NFL stat sites instead of football, at least that is my experience.

Because the question: "What makes ESPN's stats better then NFL.com stats?" Is a really hard question to agree upon.

As for you overreactions to all this ?

That's fine. I really don't care. As for the bravo, why thank you! I will be back to post more, and if you read it the wrong way I bet you will be pounding your head against the wall again.

Not my intent, but it doesn't look like it can be helped either.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Really??

Then the Cardinals must have had no problem with signing him to minimum wage after no other teams had contacted him for a long period....

Argumentation FAIL!!!

After releasing Brown for Cap purposes on March 13, The Cardinals gave Brown a new 5-year $30M contract TWO days later.... If Brown had no suitors, please explain why he was re-signed to a $30M contract two days later...

Cause I already did explain that.

Yeah, the Cardinals re-signed him. Brilliant.

Did you miss the: "Except the Cardinals of course but that implies something as well "

Who were the other teams that were talking to Levi Brown in the OT starved NFL at that time?

Two days is a long time in the NFL, with plenty of teams looking to OT help.

Again, who BESIDES the Cardinals was knocking his door down when he was available. Unless you are just assuming there were other teams, well "proof" has been a re-occurring topic on this thread, so lets see some.

There is a reason the Cardinals were able to re-sign him for less money, and that is not a compliment to Levi Brown. At least in my opinion.

Maybe other people believe that being paid less for the same job means you are improving, and doing your job well. I dunno. That is their opinion.

And didn't you state that Levi Brown is no All-Pro. What are you trying to prove in your post that I am quoting ? That he is better than average ? Better than sub-average ? Just trying to find something wrong with what I posted for the sake of it ?

BTW, I am wrong in some of the things I post, and have no problem stating when I am, so again, not really sure what you are trying to prove with all this. But, in this case, with interest in Levi Brown when he was released for a "brief" period of time, like 2 days brief (which again, is stated in the orignal post), I don't think I am wrong. Unless there is some news clip somewhere stating another team, ANY team was interested in Brown. Which would of course, change my opinion of that situation.

:Logicfail:

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Getting back to football.

I like that K9 has spent the time to look at film. Regardless of one's personal belief in the accuracies of the analysis, the eye in the sky don't lie.

And while K9 will always be strong willed in his opinion (never change that K9 it makes you who you are) he is honest in his analysis. When you read them, he will state that he may or may not know what is truly going on with the play and take a good educated guess at it.

Can't knock that kind of analysis. You can debate it, but you have to respect it in my opinion.

What am I getting at ?

Well, film of Levi Brown is great, but what to compare it to. We are Cardinals fans after all, and we can be a little skewed.

Enter Trent Williams.

Trent Williams, left tackle for the Washington Redskins, is arguably the 10th best LT in the NFL.

So, he is the at the bottom of the top 1/3 of the LT's in the league. I believe a NFL team should strive to have there OT play in the top 1/3 of the league.

Thus, my question, and wonder is how does Levi Brown stack up against a Trent Williams ?

I don't know, and I don't have the time, patience, know-how, or want-to to look into it. I would assume Trent Williams is head and shoulders above Levi Brown....I stress "assume".

But, maybe if we ask K9 nicely, and maybe even admit that Steve Smith was a better receiver in his prime then Anquan Boldin in his prime, he will look into it when he has the time.

 

[Mulli]

Wager! ....Wait a minute. You mean Levi & Potter right?

Yes.

 

[Stout]

This is the second time you've made this accusation, and it's just as much horseflop now as it was the first time you made it. What game would you like me to look at where Levi Brown was clearly terrible? I watched every offensive snap of the Bengals game; I watched every offensive snap of the Dallas game. I watched every sack and a bunch of completions and incompletions in the Ravens game from TWO YEARS AGO.

I'm not going to look for evidence that doesn't prove my point. But I WILL go look at games that people point me to as being especially bad IN THEIR MEMORIES, because I am lucky to have resources that others don't.

I've asked consistently for two things: 1) Where are Nate Potter's good games? and 2) Where are the terrible performances of Levi Brown?

I started in the humanities, and I know that there's at least some assumption that your theses have to be backed up by some kind of evidence. Please do so. Illustrate your points. Because your repetitions of "LEVI BROWN IS TEH SUX" and your ad hominem attacks against me are polluting an otherwise interesting and cordial thread.

Thus proving mine. Believe it or not, I have a life. Unless I want to sacrifice my writing career, I'm not giving up my free time to argue the truth about Levi Brown sucking. Now, if you tell me where I can find the stats on sacks conceded player by player, I'll point you to the games to look at. You know, the games you and I both know exist in droves. As far as simply plucking them from memory? Yeah, I don't remember many specific games unless it's for a good reason. I remember we beat the Cowboys in overtime a while back on a punt block for a TD in OT. I remember a hell of a playoff run in 2009. I don't sit down and reminisce about bad Levi Brown performances.

So, since you're the stats guru, give me a simple answer about where I can find that stat, and I'll tell you exactly where to go. But since you looked up all of these things and cherry picked them, you KNOW Levi has had many more awful games than good ones in pass pro, and you probably already know which games they are. Wow, you watched three games in his entire career? And made excuses as to why he sucked in one of them? Incredible.

You know Levi is terrible in pass pro, which is really what's driving my argument; I wouldn't be so vehement if I didn't know you knew better. So, revisionist history much?

 

[PDXChris]

Yes.

Yes to their wager or question?

 

[Mulli]

Thus proving mine. Believe it or not, I have a life. Unless I want to sacrifice my writing career, I'm not giving up my free time to argue the truth about Levi Brown sucking. Now, if you tell me where I can find the stats on sacks conceded player by player, I'll point you to the games to look at. You know, the games you and I both know exist in droves. As far as simply plucking them from memory? Yeah, I don't remember many specific games unless it's for a good reason. I remember we beat the Cowboys in overtime a while back on a punt block for a TD in OT. I remember a hell of a playoff run in 2009. I don't sit down and reminisce about bad Levi Brown performances.

So, since you're the stats guru, give me a simple answer about where I can find that stat, and I'll tell you exactly where to go. But since you looked up all of these things and cherry picked them, you KNOW Levi has had many more awful games than good ones in pass pro, and you probably already know which games they are. Wow, you watched three games in his entire career? And made excuses as to why he sucked in one of them? Incredible.

You know Levi is terrible in pass pro, which is really what's driving my argument; I wouldn't be so vehement if I didn't know you knew better. So, revisionist history much?

So, even if you are right about Levi, how is Nate Potter better? Cheaper,yes, but really hazardous to Carson Palmer's health unless Potter's patronus is Orlando Pace.

Hey now!

 

[Mulli]

Yes to their wager or question?

Both?

Neither Levi nor Potter will be on the team in 2014, loser gets a Harry Potter avatar of the winner's choosing. Has to keep it from the following draft to the following opening day.

 

[kerouac9]

Trent Williams, left tackle for the Washington Redskins, is arguably the 10th best LT in the NFL.

But, maybe if we ask K9 nicely, and maybe even admit that Steve Smith was a better receiver in his prime then Anquan Boldin in his prime, he will look into it when he has the time.

LOL. I have work to do today. I could only watch 150+ Levi Brown snaps yesterday because I was alone in the office for the entire day.

But if I have time later today or tomorrow, I'll watch a couple of Redskins games (I'm going to say that I'm going to watch the Kirk Cousins start and maybe a game from 2012; I don't know if read option snaps are going to be particularly useful) and provide some feedback.

Thus proving mine. Believe it or not, I have a life. Unless I want to sacrifice my writing career, I'm not giving up my free time to argue the truth about Levi Brown sucking. Now, if you tell me where I can find the stats on sacks conceded player by player, I'll point you to the games to look at. You know, the games you and I both know exist in droves. As far as simply plucking them from memory? Yeah, I don't remember many specific games unless it's for a good reason. I remember we beat the Cowboys in overtime a while back on a punt block for a TD in OT. I remember a hell of a playoff run in 2009. I don't sit down and reminisce about bad Levi Brown performances.

So, since you're the stats guru, give me a simple answer about where I can find that stat, and I'll tell you exactly where to go. But since you looked up all of these things and cherry picked them, you KNOW Levi has had many more awful games than good ones in pass pro, and you probably already know which games they are. Wow, you watched three games in his entire career? And made excuses as to why he sucked in one of them? Incredible.

You know Levi is terrible in pass pro, which is really what's driving my argument; I wouldn't be so vehement if I didn't know you knew better. So, revisionist history much?

I have a life, too. I'm happy to help you support your point, but I'm not going to watch 45+ Levi Brown starts from beginning to end to do so. I think I've shown good faith here by going over Rugby's example of the Ravens game from last year.

I don't have a site that presents sacks by player by game, but what I will do is look at the games from 2011-2012 (seasons where coaches' tape is available) and look at the games where the Cards gave up 3 sacks or more.

If it'll work for you, I'll provide those games, and you can choose two that you remember as best you can as being particularly poor Levi Brown performances.

 

[Duckjake]

After releasing Brown for Cap purposes on March 13, The Cardinals gave Brown a new 5-year $30M contract TWO days later.... If Brown had no suitors, please explain why he was re-signed to a $30M contract two days later...

Because it was Arizona. The same guys who paid Kolb, Snyder, Colledge, and Bradley too much money.

Thankfully those guys are no longer in charge of player personnel or contracts.

 

[GuernseyCard]

Cause I already did explain that.

Yeah, the Cardinals re-signed him. Brilliant.

Did you miss the: "Except the Cardinals of course but that implies something as well "

Who were the other teams that were talking to Levi Brown in the OT starved NFL at that time?

Two days is a long time in the NFL, with plenty of teams looking to OT help.

Again, who BESIDES the Cardinals was knocking his door down when he was available. Unless you are just assuming there were other teams, well "proof" has been a re-occurring topic on this thread, so lets see some.

There is a reason the Cardinals were able to re-sign him for less money, and that is not a compliment to Levi Brown. At least in my opinion.

Maybe other people believe that being paid less for the same job means you are improving, and doing your job well. I dunno. That is their opinion.

And didn't you state that Levi Brown is no All-Pro. What are you trying to prove in your post that I am quoting ? That he is better than average ? Better than sub-average ? Just trying to find something wrong with what I posted for the sake of it ?

BTW, I am wrong in some of the things I post, and have no problem stating when I am, so again, not really sure what you are trying to prove with all this. But, in this case, with interest in Levi Brown when he was released for a "brief" period of time, like 2 days brief (which again, is stated in the orignal post), I don't think I am wrong. Unless there is some news clip somewhere stating another team, ANY team was interested in Brown. Which would of course, change my opinion of that situation.

:Logicfail:

It doesn't constitute proof per se, but his agent at the time said he was in discussions with other teams, however Levi insisted on cutting a deal with the Cards.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

It doesn't constitute proof per se, but his agent at the time said he was in discussions with other teams, however Levi insisted on cutting a deal with the Cards.

Agreed.

Fair enough.