Levi v. Potter for LT -- Winston v. Massie for RT

[Mulli]

If serviceable equals replacement level, that is pretty terrible.

 

[Quinn McCollum]

I do believe Nate Potter was dealing with a ankle problem most off his rookie season.

 

[kerouac9]

If serviceable equals replacement level, that is pretty terrible.

It's not replacement level. Adam Snyder is a replacement-level player. Honestly, Nate Potter probably is, as well.

He's an average to below-average starting left tackle. There are, as I said, maybe 20 guys whom he's not clearly better than, but there are probably a dozen teams that would rather him right now then the guy they got. Including:

Miami
Green Bay
Detroit
San Diego
New Orleans
Pittsburgh
Indianapolis

Maybe seven. I think that the Giants would see how their rookie works out, but they might prefer Levi at this moment.

 

[Mulli]

It's not replacement level. Adam Snyder is a replacement-level player. Honestly, Nate Potter probably is, as well.

He's an average to below-average starting left tackle. There are, as I said, maybe 20 guys whom he's not clearly better than, but there are probably a dozen teams that would rather him right now then the guy they got. Including:

Miami
Green Bay
Detroit
San Diego
New Orleans
Pittsburgh
Indianapolis

Maybe seven. I think that the Giants would see how their rookie works out, but they might prefer Levi at this moment.

That is terrible.

 

[kerouac9]

I do believe Nate Potter was dealing with a ankle problem most off his rookie season.

Source? He sat out the Week 17 game against San Francisco with the ankle.

 

[Buckybird]

Hype it up all you want. Worst rated tackle in the league, except for 8 weeks of his career in a going no where season.

Agree

So Levi hasn't turned around his career after 4 seasons of below average football? jk

Who needs stats to see how bad #75 has been as a Cardinal, especially at LT...his supporters should watch the games like some of us have. I just don't get why anyone with open eyeballs sees Levi's game any other way.

Oh well...he's gonna get his ass cut at least by 2014

 

[kerouac9]

Agree

So Levi hasn't turned around his career after 4 seasons of below average football? jk

Who needs stats to see how bad #75 has been as a Cardinal, especially at LT...his supporters should watch the games like some of us have. I just don't get why anyone with open eyeballs sees Levi's game any other way.

Oh well...he's gonna get his ass cut at least by 2014

Yes. Clearly those of us agitating for Levi Brown over Nate Potter aren't watching the games. The evidence of that is all over this thread.

I think this conversation is a useful illustration of how coaches and front office people can see Levi Brown as a legit player while fans continue to complain about him.

What are these games, specifically?

 

[Mulli]

Yes. Clearly those of us agitating for Levi Brown over Nate Potter aren't watching the games. The evidence of that is all over this thread.

I think this conversation is a useful illustration of how coaches and front office people can see Levi Brown as a legit player while fans continue to complain about him.

What are these games, specifically?

The games that led you to put in the bottom ten of the LT's of the league?

 

[Duckjake]

It's great to see those screen shots K9 but your narratives don't seem to always match the pictures. In one you state that Brown is to expect outside help from Wells but in the 2nd frame Beanie is headed to the other side of the field. Not anywhere close to Levi.

In the next one you say that Skelton is staring down his primary receiver the entire time but in frames 1 and 2 he's looking one way and in frames 3 and 4 he's turned all the way in the opposite direction. Was the primary receiver running a crossing route all the way across the field?

Confusing to say the least.

 

[Buckybird]

I think this conversation is a useful illustration of how coaches and front office people can see Levi Brown as a legit player

Who are these guys that see him as a legit player?

1) Russ Grimm? The guy most everyone on this board bashes because he had no clue in preparing an NFL Oline? The same Russ Grimm who supposedly scouted Levi & wanted him on this roster? The same Grimm who probably coached the worst Oline in the NFL for the last 3 years?

2) Ken Whisenhunt? The Coach who got bashed for playing personal favorites in hiring & retaining a clueless Oline coach in Grimm? The same HC who rarely would give Levi a RB to help chip a DE because he had faith he was a better player than he actually is?

3) or the GM who was responsible for drafting Levi on his watch? The same Rod Graves who reportedly never watched film on players?

Yeah, you're right those guys knew what they were doing in making Levi Brown a LT instead of leaving on the right side where he's better suited.

Those clowns really know legit NFL Oline talent!!! Lol

 

[GuernseyCard]

Who are these guys that see him as a legit player?

1) Russ Grimm? The guy most everyone on this board bashes because he had no clue in preparing an NFL Oline? The same Russ Grimm who supposedly scouted Levi & wanted him on this roster? The same Grimm who probably coached the worst Oline in the NFL for the last 3 years?

2) Ken Whisenhunt? The Coach who got bashed for playing personal favorites in hiring & retaining a clueless Oline coach in Grimm? The same HC who rarely would give Levi a RB to help chip a DE because he had faith he was a better player than he actually is?

3) or the GM who was responsible for drafting Levi on his watch? The same Rod Graves who reportedly never watched film on players?

Yeah, you're right those guys knew what they were doing in making Levi Brown a LT instead of leaving on the right side where he's better suited.

Those clowns really know legit NFL Oline talent!!! Lol

Come final cutdown and game one you'll have an opportunity to call BASK and company - clowns.

 

[kerouac9]

The games that led you to put in the bottom ten of the LT's of the league?

I don't have him in the bottom 10 of the league; I have him in the middle somewhere. There are 7 teams right now where he's a clear upgrade over what they're going to start Week 1, and I listed them.

I think that there's little question that Washington, Seattle, Cleveland, St. Louis, the New York Jets, Kansas City, Dallas, Minnesota, Carolina, San Francisco, Tennessee, and Denver would rather have the guys they got. That's 12 teams.

But I don't really have any idea whether Sam Baker (ATL), Cordy Glenn (BUF), Bryant McKinnie (BAL), Andrew Whitworth (CIN), Eugene Monroe (JAX), Nate Solder (NE), Will Beatty (NYG) or Donald Penn (TB) are better or worse than Levi Brown.

I'd guess that he's better than some and worse than others. That puts him around the middle of the league.

It's great to see those screen shots K9 but your narratives don't seem to always match the pictures. In one you state that Brown is to expect outside help from Wells but in the 2nd frame Beanie is headed to the other side of the field. Not anywhere close to Levi.

In the next one you say that Skelton is staring down his primary receiver the entire time but in frames 1 and 2 he's looking one way and in frames 3 and 4 he's turned all the way in the opposite direction. Was the primary receiver running a crossing route all the way across the field?

Confusing to say the least.

If you're talking about the narrative in post #132, when Beanie starts the play outside he gives the initial impression to the DL that he'll provide outside support. That helps the DL plan for how he's going to make his initial move. Also, Beanie sees that the rush is contained and moves into the middle of the field to help out the interior rush and the right side of the line.

If you're talking about the narrative in post #133 on this thread, frame 1 is before the snap, and in Frame 2 he's actually looking to the right, although the picture isn't that clear. The way you can tell is that you can see more of the Cardinal on the right side of his helmet than the left.

Hope that clears things up.

 

[DoTheDew]

K9, do you have any footage of Levi as a rookie? Even though he was a RT at the time, I think it'd be a more fair comparison to Potter's rookie year.

Comparing Levi as an experienced vet to Potter as a 7th round rookie on a train wreck team with a coaching staff that had checked out is hardly apples to apples.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

I don't have him in the bottom 10 of the league; I have him in the middle somewhere.

Agreed.

You have been stating this since last year, and after a long, hard fought debate, I agree.

Believe it or not Levi Brown went from being sub-average to average.

There is a reason for it, but that is for another time.

 

[kerouac9]

K9, do you have any footage of Levi as a rookie? Even though he was a RT at the time, I think it'd be a more fair comparison to Potter's rookie year.

Comparing Levi as an experienced vet to Potter as a 7th round rookie on a train wreck team with a coaching staff that had checked out is hardly apples to apples.

I don't, but it wouldn't matter anyway, because the variables beyond right vs. left are too extreme--most especially Kurt Warner under center vs. the clowns we ran out there last season.

I don't really have a truck in the fight over who's a better rookie, anyway. What I care about right now is who is the best option for 2013, because that's the most pressing issue.

From what I've seen from the actual play on the field, Nate Potter is massively overrated and Levi Brown is somewhat undervalued.

Could Nate Potter be an acceptable starter someday? Maybe. He's got to get bigger and more aggressive, particularly in the running game. But right now I don't see any evidence that Nate Potter is a superior option to Levi Brown.

And no one is providing evidence to the contrary. "Anybody but Levi" had us in the position of starting D'Anthony Batiste.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

K9, do you have any footage of Levi as a rookie? Even though he was a RT at the time, I think it'd be a more fair comparison to Potter's rookie year.

Comparing Levi as an experienced vet to Potter as a 7th round rookie on a train wreck team with a coaching staff that had checked out is hardly apples to apples.

I can tell you that Patrick Kearney ate Levi Brown for lunch his rookie year.

......but that is about it.

 

[kerouac9]

I can tell you that Patrick Kearney ate Levi Brown for lunch his rookie year.

......but that is about it.

Patrick Kerney played EIGHT GAMES in 2007 and had FOURTEEN AND ONE HALF SACKS in that time. He had three sacks against the Arizona Cardinals.

 

[BullheadCardFan]

Although Keim and the staff's faith in Lyle Sendlein remains concerning.

Very much agree. Reports are he is still getting blown up in practice.

 

[Stout]

One thing that I'm not explicitly illustrating here is Levi Brown's value in run blocking. In part, that's because it's still hard to show even with the All-22 film, and in part because most of the complaints seem to be about pass protection.

Suffice it to say (and you're mileage on my opinion will vary) that Nate Potter was a disaster as a run blocker. He wasn't only unable to generate push, but he was consistently pushed around. Levi Brown, even in this game, was an exceptional run blocker.

Yes, Levi is a pretty good run blocker. Unfortunately, at LT, you have to be at least serviceable in pass blocking. You must have good movement and good feet. Instead, he's the human turnstile.

If you had to describe Levi's pass blocking:

<blank> pass blocking: exceptional run blocking

What say you?

Ole pass blocking: solid run blocking.

Serviceable pass blocking; exceptional run blocking.

Serviceable? Now I see why we're worlds apart in our opinion of Levi 'Turnstile' Brown.

Yes. Clearly those of us agitating for Levi Brown over Nate Potter aren't watching the games. The evidence of that is all over this thread.

I think this conversation is a useful illustration of how coaches and front office people can see Levi Brown as a legit player while fans continue to complain about him.

What are these games, specifically?

Yeah, the coaches and front office people saw how 'legit' he was when he was shown the door. The league showed how 'legit' he was when he didn't sniff a decent contract--a supposedly serviceable LT on the open market. Our front office showed how 'legit' he was by signing him to a peanuts LT contract when nobody else wanted him.

Hey, we needed him back because we needed players at the position. We cannot go with Potter alone at the position, and chances are Potter isn't ready to be a full time starter. He's a project, no doubt about it, but a project I see with exceptional potential. Levi Brown is a never-was who can be serviceable, sometimes, at RT, but who represents how thin we are at the LT position because he should never, ever play there.

 

[Mulli]

It's not replacement level. Adam Snyder is a replacement-level player. Honestly, Nate Potter probably is, as well.

He's an average to below-average starting left tackle. There are, as I said, maybe 20 guys whom he's not clearly better than, but there are probably a dozen teams that would rather him right now then the guy they got. Including:

Miami
Green Bay
Detroit
San Diego
New Orleans
Pittsburgh
Indianapolis

Maybe seven. I think that the Giants would see how their rookie works out, but they might prefer Levi at this moment.

So bottom 12? Whichever. He isn't good. Potter is worse.

 

[kerouac9]

Yes, Levi is a pretty good run blocker. Unfortunately, at LT, you have to be at least serviceable in pass blocking. You must have good movement and good feet. Instead, he's the human turnstile.

Ole pass blocking: solid run blocking.

Serviceable? Now I see why we're worlds apart in our opinion of Levi 'Turnstile' Brown.

Yeah, the coaches and front office people saw how 'legit' he was when he was shown the door. The league showed how 'legit' he was when he didn't sniff a decent contract--a supposedly serviceable LT on the open market. Our front office showed how 'legit' he was by signing him to a peanuts LT contract when nobody else wanted him.

Hey, we needed him back because we needed players at the position. We cannot go with Potter alone at the position, and chances are Potter isn't ready to be a full time starter. He's a project, no doubt about it, but a project I see with exceptional potential. Levi Brown is a never-was who can be serviceable, sometimes, at RT, but who represents how thin we are at the LT position because he should never, ever play there.

Well, I can see that you have a well-reasoned, evidence-based opinion on Levi Brown based on your presentation of facts and primary-source evidence. What can me and my facts and analysis do in the face of it?

Levi Brown was released for the same reason that Antrel Rolle was released in the final year of his contract: his one-year cost didn't meet the value that he presented to the ball club.

I don't know whether Levi Brown got the five-plus contract offers that were reported following his release, but the contract that he received certainly seems to suggest that he had greater value than you're representing here.

My thesis here--as I've restated over and over--isn't that Levi Brown is a top-shelf starter, or that his performance matches his draft position, etc., etc. What my argument here ACTUALLY IS is that Levi Brown--at least from the recent evidence--is a superior player to Nate Potter, who was garbage last year.

That's it. If you want to continue heap opprobrium on Levi Brown, then back it up with some film, or some evidence outside of Pro Football Focus's rankings--the same rankings that put Rex Hadnot as a top five guard in 2009.

 

[GuernseyCard]

Seems that some who were touting Skelton are now on the Potter bandwagon. Hope this guess turns out better than the last.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

That's it. If you want to continue heap opprobrium on Levi Brown, then back it up with some film, or some evidence outside of Pro Football Focus's rankings--the same rankings that put Rex Hadnot as a top five guard in 2009.

Oh come on now.

No making up the rules mid-debate. You keep taking everything against your argument off the table.

Who you think you are? A politician from Washington?

You call out one stat site then throw them all out cause its all or nothing with stats, internet news sources and the like.

One man's offensive line stat is anothers ESPN QB rating


How about this for a good argument against

Who was knocking down Levi Brown's front door when he was released for a brief period is of time?

Nobody. That's who.

Except the Cardinals of course but that implies something as well

Sent from RM's Super phone!

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Seems that some who were touting Skelton are now on the Potter bandwagon. Hope this guess turns out better than the last.

Nate Potter ain't no Double Deuce

Sent from RM's Super phone!

 

[Cardiac]

Good stuff K9. People bring up Levi as being the worst LT based on some websites rating system and of course they have seen the sacks that come from his side of the line. As you illustrated some of those sacks very well may not have been his fault. Those sites that ranked him so low also ranked him as on of the best LT's in the 2nd half of 2011.

Brown is not the best LT in the league and he hasn't lived up to being selected #5 overall but at this point he is better than Potter. At least the Potter we saw last year.

Illuminating to see some who won't even give Levi credit for his well above avg run blocking abilities.

This thread has become top notch because of the info and research you have posted.