lol @ how dirty the Spurs play..

[TucsonDevil]

I love the 'ignore list'... ambchang has a position on mine.

 

[Phade]

added to ignore

 

[CaptainInsano]

I love the 'ignore list'... ambchang has a position on mine.

added to ignore

Welcome to the club guys, it has been up for 2 weeks (aka I added him 2 weeks ago).

 

[Phade]

thanks for the welcoming i love being a part of a great club for an amazing cause..

 

[shazaam6]

redone

 

[Cheesewater]

Okay. Sorry I waited so long, fans.

ambchang_ added to IGNORE.

 

[shazaam6]

Whether you saying it is intentional or me saying that it is not is totally subjective, and I am not sure how you can so convincing saying that he does it on purpose, and could even track how his thought process evolves over time. But judging from all how it happens and the frequency of which it does (twice in the span of his 10+ year career), I have to say that if he is hurting people on purpose that way, he is doing a very poor job.

are you serious "twice in 10+ year career"? serious denial

Of all the plays, that one is probably the easiest to say is an accident. It is not like the shooter is standing there and waiting to be jump kicked. Bowen was faked out of his shoes. I haven't seen the one in play when he was Miami (only seen photo), but the Szcerbiak one was obviously an accident. He couldn't do it again if he tried.

wasn't that at least the second time?

Where are all the videos of Steve Nash rebounding? Of Tim Duncan setting screens? Of Jordan taking a breather? Those things happens, but nobody cares. No other defender gets scrutinized like that because Ray Allen, vince Carter and Isiah Thomas didn't cry about it.

did you mean "cried"? -----anyway YOU JUST PROVED MY POINT. He is scrutenized because he does it more than other defenders, and it's harmful to other players so he needs to stop.

Is this logical to you?
If, while you are shooting, I stuck my finger in your eye,oops sorry accident, then put my finger up to your eye the next tiime but don't touch it, you might still flinch and possibly miss your shot. If I also did that to other players, people might start scrutenizing my accidental eye poke technique more than anyone else BECAUSE I do that more than anyone else.

ambchang, I'm almost convinced you aren't rational and no amount of evidence is going to change that. If Bowen came out and publically said:

"Yes, I do stick my feet in where the other players feet are because it causes them to focus on my feet instead of basketball. The refs are more focused on fouls made by using the hands, so they don't notice what the feet are doing. But I guess the league is taking that away, so I'll have to stop now."

You would still see it as accidents.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPTp5SASPLg
First video I found on youtube typing in "NBA jumpshot". 1:10 mark, first jumpshot of the video. Yao Ming shot, Rasho moves in, exact same play.

This youtube video shows nothing relevant.

BTW Just curious, How old are you and have you played basketball on any organized teams?

 

[ambchang_]

I love the 'ignore list'... ambchang has a position on mine.

Hey, awesome! Let the world know your every detail, especially those that doesn't have any bearing on other people who posts here!

Good one!

Oh wait, you can't see this ....

BTW, why are people suddenly adding me to the ignore list when a video clearly shows that jumping into a jump shooter as a normal defensive play? Pray tell.

 

[ambchang_]

are you serious "twice in 10+ year career"? serious denial

Wasn’t Carter and Francis the only two people hurt by Bowen on his “stick-his-foot-under-shooter” tactic? Name another player.

wasn't that at least the second time?

Umm … because he wasn’t trying?

did you mean "cried"? -----anyway YOU JUST PROVED MY POINT. He is scrutenized because he does it more than other defenders, and it's harmful to other players so he needs to stop.

I meant the other players did not get scrutinized because those players/coach did NOT cry about it. He does it more than other defenders, I have to agree with you, and it hurts 2 people in his ten year career. Doesn’t make it right, and it is unfortunate that players got hurt, but for a player who earns a living strictly by playing defense, it is kind of hard to ask him to stop doing it, right?

Is this logical to you?
If, while you are shooting, I stuck my finger in your eye,oops sorry accident, then put my finger up to your eye the next tiime but don't touch it, you might still flinch and possibly miss your shot. If I also did that to other players, people might start scrutenizing my accidental eye poke technique more than anyone else BECAUSE I do that more than anyone else.

I would say you have an incredible aim in being able to put your finger in a target as small as my eye so frequently, and without actually causing damage.

And how about this for logic? How about if a player plays 500 consecutive games, and his sole purpose on the court was to defend the other team’s best perimeter player night in and night out? In those 500 games, on average, the man shoots an average of around 15 times a game. So out of those approximately 7,500 shots, TWO person got hurt. Does this sound intentional?

ambchang, I'm almost convinced you aren't rational and no amount of evidence is going to change that. If Bowen came out and publically said:

"Yes, I do stick my feet in where the other players feet are because it causes them to focus on my feet instead of basketball. The refs are more focused on fouls made by using the hands, so they don't notice what the feet are doing. But I guess the league is taking that away, so I'll have to stop now."

You would still see it as accidents.

No I wouldn’t, if he actually said that, I would say that he is a dirty bastard.

However, I do know that him saying that those were accidents, players in Bryant, McGrady, and coaches in Van Gundy saying that they don’t think Bowen is dirty holds absolutely no water, while the words of Carter, Allen and Thomas, people who are just as believable to the previous group, means everything to you.

This youtube video shows nothing relevant.

Because a defender defended the jumpshot the same way Bowen does? Because this is the first video I found and the first jumpshot on the video? Oh yeah, it means nothing.

BTW Just curious, How old are you and have you played basketball on any organized teams?

I am not comfortable divulging my age online, and yes, I have played organized basketball. I have had my ankles broken once and twisted multiple times by stepping on my defenders foot, I have even have a serious upper lip cut from an errant elbow from an opponent, but I call none of them dirty, because it’s all part of the game.

 

[shazaam6]

ok ambchang, What you are saying is that there haven't been many injuries in ten years so he can't be doing it on purpose.

I still think he uses his feet on purpose in ways that are dirty to mess with other players fear of rolling an ankle. It is like running under a player on a layup. It is effective because it is very dangerous to the shooter, and that is why it shouldn't be allowed. Because that technique of sticking your foot under the shooter is dirty, as long as Bowen appears to use it, he is dirty.
That is my opinion anyway.

 

[ambchang_]

ok ambchang, I see what you are saying, that there haven't been many injuries in ten years. So he can't be doing it on purpose.

I still think he uses his feet on purpose in ways that mess with other players fear of rolling an ankle. It is like running under a player on a layup. It is effective because it is very dangerous to the shooter and that is why it shouldn't be allowed.


Since the refs started calling tripping a foul, even when it appears unintentional. Maybe they should call it a foul if the jumpshooter lands on the defenders feet.

He definately uses his feet and legs to foul but the refs don't call it so it's not a fault of him. ok

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krxLdKSlev0&feature=related

I see this as a leg foul. Not dangerous, just a foul.

I think we are going into intentions here, and fairly or unfairly, there is no way for either one of us to prove it. We can just agree to disagree.

Some of the things I could never understand from this group is, and this is not targetted to you in particular, is as follows:

1) Why are the words of Vince Carter, Ray Allen and Isiah Thomas so convincing, yet the words of Kobe Bryant, T-Mac and Van Gundy useless?

2) Why is it that I am narrow-minded when I do no believe Bowen to be malicious in intent, but you to be open-minded, or at least fair-minded to believe Bowen to be malicious in intent? Are we not subject to the same level of personal opinions?

3) How can a person jump into people and still stay well-balanced when landed without spreading his legs?

4) How is it possible to move without moving your knees?

5) How is it possible to turn your body around 180 degrees without using your knees?

6) Why does CP3 get a free pass on the "punch" in the groin despite past history, while Bowen doesn't when he has never had a history of kicking people who are down?

7) Why are Spurs fans homers, and Suns fans not haters?

8) Why are people who do not agree with your point of view wrong? Whoever says Suns fans are always right?

9) Why do people put me on ignore list the second video evidence shows that kicking out the legs after challenging a jump shot to be a normal basketball defensive move?

I would like to know the answers, but given that most of those who are always right has already put me on ignore, I probably can never get answers to these questions.

 

[ambchang_]

ok ambchang, I see what you are saying, that there haven't been many injuries in ten years. So he can't be doing it on purpose.

I don't think he likes to hurt anyone, however I still think he uses his feet on purpose in ways that mess with other players fear of rolling an ankle. It is like running under a player on a layup. It is effective because it is very dangerous to the shooter, and that is why it shouldn't be allowed.

Thank you for being the second reasonable poster on this thread (after Dreamcastrocks). I can see why you think it is dangerous, for this has already happened twice, and I believe Bowen has been called for fouls in his career for this.

 

[shazaam6]

I redid my post a third time because it might have sounded like I agreed with your position too much.

 

[da_suns_fan]

Are there STILL people arguing on Bowen' kick of Chris Paul?

LMAO ambchang.....you are wasting your time trying to convince us that Bowen didn't kick Paul. You can slow the footage down as much as you want, but it was obvious what happened.

 

[ambchang_]

Fine with it, you have your definition of dirty, and I have mine.

I am used to a more physical brand of basketball. Again, I can only name a handful of dirty players that I have seen, players who hurt people on purpose. (Karl Malone, Bill Laimbeer, Rick Mahorn, Jeff Ruland, Maurice Lucas and Danny Fortson).

Players like Rodman, Artest, Stockton, AC Green, I am fine with despite their reputation.

 

[ambchang_]

Are there STILL people arguing on Bowen' kick of Chris Paul?

LMAO ambchang.....you are wasting your time trying to convince us that Bowen didn't kick Paul. You can slow the footage down as much as you want, but it was obvious what happened.

First of all, I didn't slow it down, I don't have any video editing tools.
Second, wouldn't slowing down the video make it MORE obvious that contact occured? I mean, if * denotes an instant of contact, and _ denotes non-contact, something in real life that transpired in real-life

------------*------------

would look like the following if slowed down, say, to half-speed:
------------------------**------------------------

Meaning that the chance of missing the * part is much lower.

 

[da_suns_fan]

First of all, I didn't slow it down, I don't have any video editing tools.
Second, wouldn't slowing down the video make it MORE obvious that contact occured? I mean, if * denotes an instant of contact, and _ denotes non-contact, something in real life that transpired in real-life

------------*------------

would look like the following if slowed down, say, to half-speed:
------------------------**------------------------

Meaning that the chance of missing the * part is much lower.

Im talking about the video from SpursTalk...i thought I saw that earlier in this thread.

Bowen kicked Paul. There's NO DENYING it!!!

Bowen got what he deserved and hopefully its just a first step. The league isn't gonna allow his crap anymore.

 

[shazaam6]

I think we are going into intentions here, and fairly or unfairly, there is no way for either one of us to prove it. We can just agree to disagree.

Some of the things I could never understand from this group is, and this is not targetted to you in particular, is as follows:

1) Why are the words of Vince Carter, Ray Allen and Isiah Thomas so convincing, yet the words of Kobe Bryant, T-Mac and Van Gundy useless?

Probably because I agree that he did it on purpose. But if you don't think it was on purpose you agree with those people.

2) Why is it that I am narrow-minded when I do no believe Bowen to be malicious in intent, but you to be open-minded, or at least fair-minded to believe Bowen to be malicious in intent? Are we not subject to the same level of personal opinions?

Because sometimes it is hard to see the otherside's viewpoint when everyone is trying to convince each other they are right.

3) How can a person jump into people and still stay well-balanced when landed without spreading his legs?

I see that as a cleaverly disguised way of stepping under the shooter. He doesn't injure alot but he does do that and it is dangerous. So I don't think he should do that.

4) How is it possible to move without moving your knees?

If a defender is positioned up close to you, you can't move through him like he isn't there. And come on everyone knows that was a knee to the nuts to get Nash off him, disguised as a forward pivot. Bowen knew he was kneeing him, look how high and out he sticks his leg and knee. That is as bad as a punch in the face as far as I'm concerned and Nash didn't provoke that at all. It was Bowen taking an opportunity IMO and that adds to the Dirty tactics used by Bowen.

5) How is it possible to turn your body around 180 degrees without using your knees?

You call timeout if you get pinned in by two guys, because you cant just start pivoting into defenders groins with your knees. Bowen only had Nash on him and he could have pivoted other ways.

6) Why does CP3 get a free pass on the "punch" in the groin despite past history, while Bowen doesn't when he has never had a history of kicking people who are down?

What about the Ray Allen incident.
Whether Bowen connects or not it appears that he takes a shot at Paul with his leg. I didn't see Paul punch. My opinion is that Paul will be watched closer now but he didn't appear to use any motion consistant with punching while Bowen appears to swing his leg in a motion that you would use if you were kicking.

7) Why are Spurs fans homers, and Suns fans not haters?

There are homers for both, and degrees of hate here for the Spurs. If some Spur's fans would come out and say that the suspensions might have caused us to lose last year, instead of calling a natural protection impulse to protect your teammate from a useless thug foul.(which is all I think it was) But the Spurs won and it wasn't fully because of what played on the basketball court. There have been awful posts by Spurs fans here. Poor sportsmanship stuff, this isn't a pep rally for the Spurs. Stop the denial. Suspensions helped Spurs win. Horry hit Nash, totally unnecessary hard foul on our most valuable player. He could have grabbed him if he wanted to foul. Horry hit Bell. Amare and Diaw walked over. Suspended. worked out well for Spurs.

8) Why are people who do not agree with your point of view wrong? Whoever says Suns fans are always right?

No one really believes they are always right. If I'm proven wrong then I'll say I was wrong--then I'm right again--that I was wrong. It works both ways I suppose but I pay closer attention when it is called against the Suns.

9) Why do people put me on ignore list the second video evidence shows that kicking out the legs after challenging a jump shot to be a normal basketball defensive move?

If you are still talking about putting your leg where a shooter lands, that is not normal. Normal is both guys jump and both guys land safely. Bowen will stop if he starts getting fouls called on him for his feet. I feel that just because he doesn't get called for a foul doesn't mean he is not dirty. My opinion is that I have the right to shoot and land without worrying about rolling my ankle on the defender.

Example to sum it up for you. I jump first to shoot. Because the defender doesnt know when I'm going to shoot, he jumps after to block or stick a hand in my face to impair my vision. I land, THEN he lands. Bowen slides his foot where the shooter lands before he lands, and that isn't normal defense for a jumpshot.

I would like to know the answers, but given that most of those who are always right has already put me on ignore, I probably can never get answers to these questions.

These are just my opinions from playing and watching, others opinions may vary. If Bowen is dirty there will be more incidences.
So we'll see. It's going to be incredible to watch what happens, though, in the west. I hope we play the Spurs. Let's get ready to rumblllllllllllle. We will beat you guys. Just my opinion again.

 

[Covert Rain]

First of all, I didn't slow it down, I don't have any video editing tools.
Second, wouldn't slowing down the video make it MORE obvious that contact occured? I mean, if * denotes an instant of contact, and _ denotes non-contact, something in real life that transpired in real-life

------------*------------

would look like the following if slowed down, say, to half-speed:
------------------------**------------------------

Meaning that the chance of missing the * part is much lower.

Beyond pathetic you are still arguing a point where your clearly in the minority of most fans. Not just here. If your not trying to sway opinion (which is an obvious failure) and your still arguing your laughable points then please go somewhere where you can get people to jump on that fantasy bandwagon.

You have presented no evidence to convince anybody the guys is not a dirty player. Video evidence in several examples is clear. Take it somewhere else. Enough already.

 

[Phade]

someone ban him for being annoying

 

[ambchang_]

Beyond pathetic you are still arguing a point where your clearly in the minority of most fans. Not just here. If your not trying to sway opinion (which is an obvious failure) and your still arguing your laughable points then please go somewhere where you can get people to jump on that fantasy bandwagon.

You have presented no evidence to convince anybody the guys is not a dirty player. Video evidence in several examples is clear. Take it somewhere else. Enough already.

Please do tell me what points were laughable. I wouldn't mind taking in on if you guys/girls are so vague about it.

From what I have gathered so far, simply the mention of Bowen is not the dirtiest player in the league in laugable to you, and that is the whole point of discussion. So what is there to argue if you already have your mind made up from the get go?

Second, I have presented streams and streams of videos, quotes from players and coaches, examples from other players in how they defend, screencaps, NBA suspension patterns, and you call that no evidence? I am not sure about you, but I would call this "laugable".

 

[ambchang_]

someone ban him for being annoying

I thought you put me on ignore, why would you care?

Also, what have I said that is bannable? Things that you (or a majority of Suns fans) don't agree with?

All this talk about me being a troll, my arguments being laughable, etc ... Great, present you points people, show me what is laughable, show me what is troll-like behaviour, show me your arguments. All I have heard throughout the whole thread is highly subjective and has absolutely nothing to back up.

The funnier thing is, people here claim to be some kind of standard of objectivity and choose to put me on ignore the second their "arguments" were destroyed.

I say, enjoy your time in the sand.

 

[arwillan]

Please do tell me what points were laughable. I wouldn't mind taking in on if you guys/girls are so vague about it.

From what I have gathered so far, simply the mention of Bowen is not the dirtiest player in the league in laugable to you, and that is the whole point of discussion. So what is there to argue if you already have your mind made up from the get go?

Second, I have presented streams and streams of videos, quotes from players and coaches, examples from other players in how they defend, screencaps, NBA suspension patterns, and you call that no evidence? I am not sure about you, but I would call this "laugable".

name a dirtier one.

 

[Bufalay]

haha why is this thread so long?

 

[ambchang_]

name a dirtier one.

Mardy Collins, whose sole achievement to date was to be sent out and hard-foul people.
Jason Terry, who nut punches players, pull player's legs while they are airborne going for a layup, fake charges people.