lol @ how dirty the Spurs play..

[Lorenzo]

Still, there is a gulf of difference between a guy that snaps once and pulls a ninja take-down of someone and a guy that has a documented history of dangerous and cheap "defensive" moves.

I agree. and I dislike bowen more. but it doesn't take away from his accomplishments. bell is a similiar player. I watched him in dallas and he does cross the line more than just once and a while. but that's okay. that's what you want..you want physical guys who go to war and are relentless at the defensive end. I'd say bell is one of those guys.

 

[ambchang_]

You are pathetic if you didn't see that Bruce Bowen kicked Chris Paul.

I saw what you guys were doing on SpursTalk. Slowing the footage down as much as possible to try to mitigate the contact and then claim that Chris Paul was acting.

Bowen kicked Paul. This was clear as crystal. You guys are having a hissy fit because he got caught.

Bowen deserved the suspension, and hopefully its just the first step the league is taking to let Bruce Bowen know that his cheating play isn't going to be allowed anymore. Time to step up and play basketball like a man.

Perhaps this just flew over your head, but if the action was slowed down, it would show the contact much clearer.

Would you care to explain how slowing down the video would make the contact disappear?

 

[ambchang_]

I said there are many Spurs fans admitting Bowen's transgressions. It's true.

Dreamcastrocks also said Bowen didn't kick. ANd what transgressions are you talking about? I have no problems with people saying that Bowen stretches the limits some times.

No. You have not shown videos that clearly show Bowen did NOT kick Paul. Bowen kicked at Paul twice. Contact or no contact, it is a dirty, cheap act punishable by suspension. Parse the video all you want, Bowen has been found guilty.

So you mean that Bowen is not allowed to move his leg in that situation? It was as clear as clear could be that Bowen did not kick Paul.

I am not arguing that Bowen was not punished. I know that already.

Objective, because I have no interest in all the other players/teams affected by Bowen's documented cheap shots.

So your opinion alone is objective, yet anything contrary to your opinion is not.

So who are you? You alone decides what is right and what is not again?

Don't compare one suspension to another. There are relatively few degrees of suspension available. He got the least available. Also, you keep ignoring the history of questionable play. You are in serious denial.

I didn't ignore them, I just believe those plays to be results of aggressive defense. With Bowen defending the top perimeter player on the opposing team day in and day out for year after year, his aggressiveness will result in contact.

And what does him having the least degree of suspension available have to do with anything?

 

[Cheesewater]

Perhaps this just flew over your head, but if the action was slowed down, it would show the contact much clearer.

Would you care to explain how slowing down the video would make the contact disappear?

You can't tell from that angle fast or slow. Luckily, we don't have to tell. There is an official on that side...who runs in to intervene right after Bowen's first kick.

Do me a favor. Just for a minute, forget about contact. Did Bowen kick AT Paul at all?

Look at it this way, if I take a swing at you, whether or not I connect, is that wrong or right?

What is Bowen kicking at if not Chris Paul?

 

[Lorenzo]

You can't tell from that angle fast or slow. Luckily, we don't have to tell. There is an official on that side...who runs in to intervene right after Bowen's first kick.

Do me a favor. Just for a minute, forget about contact. Did Bowen kick AT Paul at all?

Look at it this way, if I take a swing at you, whether or not I connect, is that wrong or right?

What is Bowen kicking at if not Chris Paul?

He's just trying out his spurs.

 

[Cheesewater]

Dreamcastrocks also said Bowen didn't kick. ANd what transgressions are you talking about? I have no problems with people saying that Bowen stretches the limits some times.

Are you kidding? How about the ones I've listed earlier in this thread? The ones everyone knows about and has seen. Carter, Crawford, Stoudemire, Nash...the list goes on.

So you mean that Bowen is not allowed to move his leg in that situation? It was as clear as clear could be that Bowen did not kick Paul.

Yes. Bowen is not allowed to move his leg in that situation when it results in kicking or kicking at Chris Paul. It's not clear that Bowen made contact, but it is clear he kicked at him.

So your opinion alone is objective, yet anything contrary to your opinion is not.
So who are you? You alone decides what is right and what is not again?

This ploy is tiresome. You argue very much like your team complains...palms up with a hurt expression.

I didn't ignore them, I just believe those plays to be results of aggressive defense. With Bowen defending the top perimeter player on the opposing team day in and day out for year after year, his aggressiveness will result in contact.

How many NBA Defensive Players of the Year have such a record of player and coach complaints about inappropriate behavior?

And what does him having the least degree of suspension available have to do with anything?

You were the one bellyaching about being suspended for less.

 

[Phade]

chang has some serious issues.. he's the type of fan that makes the spurs the most hated team/fanbase on the planet..

 

[Lorenzo]

chang has some serious issues.. he's the type of fan that makes the spurs the most hated team/fanbase on the planet..

I wouldn't go that far. every fanbase have their fans who will stick up for their players and blast another team's players. now you all are getting too personel here. let's not get too hypocritical. is bowen dirty....yes he can be at times. but chang admitted that to be true. every fanbase have their share of annoying fans. the spurs are no exception. some(not all)suns fans at the moment are stuck on the spurs and need to move on. they might not even play the spurs in the playoffs given the way things are going. this thread is becoming a waste.

 

[Phade]

I wouldn't go that far. every fanbase have their fans who will stick up for their players and blast another team's players. now you all are getting too personel here. let's not get too hypocritical. is bowen dirty....yes he can be at times. but chang admitted that to be true. every fanbase have their share of annoying fans. the spurs are no exception. some(not all)suns fans at the moment are stuck on the spurs and need to move on. they might not even play the spurs in the playoffs given the way things are going. this thread is becoming a waste.

show me once in this thread where chang admitted that bowen was dirty please mr

 

[Lorenzo]

show me once in this thread where chang admitted that bowen was dirty please mr

I thought I read where chang said bowen crosses the line. that tells me all I need to know when I sit back and think about it. but that's just me.

 

[Lorenzo]

Dreamcastrocks also said Bowen didn't kick. ANd what transgressions are you talking about? I have no problems with people saying that Bowen stretches the limits some times.

stretches the limits? what does that mean. I take it as he can be a dirty player at times. just a nice way of saying it. maybe he's just over physical at times. maybe that's better. different than dirty. I've watched the way bowen guards dirk I can't see how he's not called for a foul on every play. it's called bear hug defense.....that's what avery calls it.

 

[Bufalay]

stretches the limits? what does that mean. I take it as he can be a dirty player at times. just a nice way of saying it. maybe he's just over physical at times. maybe that's better. different than dirty. I've watched the way bowen guards dirk I can't see how he's not called for a foul on every play. it's called bear hug defense.....that's what avery calls it.

Bears are dirty creatures.

 

[Stout]

Chang, I wrote it all out for you plain as day. Then you highlighted parts you wanted to respond to and ignored the rest. I'm not going to rehash if for you, because it will do no good, and it will only make you happy to make me do it. I'll just continue to read and laugh, thanks.

 

[21greatestever]

Man, you got to love a thread that is 28 pages long about an opposing player on a SUNS message board.

 

[Phade]

Man, you got to love a thread that is 28 pages long about an opposing player on a SUNS message board.

gotta love losers that are fans for other teams that sign up to talk ish on a Suns message board..

 

[Darth Llama]

gotta love losers that are fans for other teams that sign up to talk ish on a Suns message board..

This isn't just a Suns board, it's Suns and general NBA, so this is a pretty stupid statement. Then again, consider the source.

 

[Phade]

This isn't just a Suns board, it's Suns and general NBA, so this is a pretty stupid statement. Then again, consider the source.

my problem is with spurs fans.. should have reworded the post..

and i dont mind you calling me stupid because i am.

 

[ambchang_]

You can't tell from that angle fast or slow. Luckily, we don't have to tell. There is an official on that side...who runs in to intervene right after Bowen's first kick.

You want to go with the official? Great, Paul was called for the loose ball foul.

Do me a favor. Just for a minute, forget about contact. Did Bowen kick AT Paul at all?

Look at it this way, if I take a swing at you, whether or not I connect, is that wrong or right?

What is Bowen kicking at if not Chris Paul?

No, he was moving away from Paul in the second instance, and was simply turning around and looking for the ball in the first. Neither case was a kick.

 

[ambchang_]

Are you kidding? How about the ones I've listed earlier in this thread? The ones everyone knows about and has seen. Carter, Crawford, Stoudemire, Nash...the list goes on.

other than the Allen kick, all the other ones were accidents. He gets very close to his man and results in contact.

Yes. Bowen is not allowed to move his leg in that situation when it results in kicking or kicking at Chris Paul. It's not clear that Bowen made contact, but it is clear he kicked at him.

It is not "clear" he made contact? What about it is clear he did NOT make contact. He was looking for the loose ball, of course he is going to move, or should all players just stand around and wait for the ball to bounce to wherever it wants?

This ploy is tiresome. You argue very much like your team complains...palms up with a hurt expression.


How many NBA Defensive Players of the Year have such a record of player and coach complaints about inappropriate behavior?

And coach? There is Isiah Thomas, and who else? There is also Bryant and McGrady praising Bowen for his defense. Ray Allen praised him for his defense when they were teammates, Carter is known for half-man half a season. Either Francis or Crawford mentioned that they think Bowen didn't trip people on purpose.

You were the one bellyaching about being suspended for less.

 

[Cheesewater]

No, he was moving away from Paul in the second instance, and was simply turning around and looking for the ball in the first. Neither case was a kick.

Alright, I'm convinced: You are seriously blind. Better get that checked out. If the people whose job it is to analyze these things and who no doubt watched the play over and over from every available angle determined that Bowen kicked Paul, and objective people with no personal stake in this saw it...it confirms my belief that Bowen did it. Factor in the history of invasive, non-basketball moves with his feet and legs. He did it. You just will never see it.

I'll bet you've got a tortilla with Bowen's face on it in a glass case somewhere too.

 

[jbeecham]

It is not "clear" he made contact? What about it is clear he did NOT make contact. He was looking for the loose ball, of course he is going to move, or should all players just stand around and wait for the ball to bounce to wherever it wants?

Ok so then according to you, Bowen was punched in the nuts twice and then didn't retaliate......yeah that sounds just like Bruce Bowen. He shouldn't have been straddling Paul to begin with, but if he wants to chase after the ball then he would've known that he would have to step over the guy he was standing over.......not just turn his body and kick the guy on the ground (except he wanted to kick him, which is why he did it again).

 

[ambchang_]

Chang, I wrote it all out for you plain as day. Then you highlighted parts you wanted to respond to and ignored the rest. I'm not going to rehash if for you, because it will do no good, and it will only make you happy to make me do it. I'll just continue to read and laugh, thanks.

Guess, what, being the guy I am, I will do it for you. Please tell me what I have ignored, what is plain as day.

Since the CP3 incident, these are all the posts you have in this thread:

Ambchang, you deny that Bowen kicked CP, even though the league saw it, all other non-Spurs fans saw it, and most Spurs fans even saw it. That's bad enough. Do you deny Bowen had dirty plays on Nash and Stat last playoffs? That would be even worse if you did. Do you deny Bowen has had numerous other episodes in other games throughout the years? Well, I know you admitted one on, I believe, Ray Allen. Might have the player wrong, but not the admission. Now, first off, if you deny all of that, well, there's no hope for you.

Second of all, in regards to you attempting to ignore the fact that he was caught by the league. You're trying to throw it back at us, the Suns fans, that we cannot use the Bowen suspension as proof against him because we think the league made a bad call against us last playoffs. The fallacy there is that nobody denies that two players of ours stepped off the bench; we were only livid that it took a body slam to one of our players by one of your goons to get the officials' attention, and thought that the league was vastly overreacting in our suspensions. You see, nobody denied it actually happened, which is what you're doing. You can rely on the fact that if there is even a small shred of doubt about an incident, this league is going to turn a blind eye and ignore it. The fact that Bowen was suspended irrevocably damages your defense of his brutal behavior and defense of the specific incident.

To which I responded:

I don't know how many times I can show a video that shows Bowen did NOT kick Paul, but just go look it up. Certain angles showed that Bowen kicked CP3, but a clearer angle clearly showed that he didn't.

To summarize, it is possible to show a kick in a non-kick situation through a bad angle, but it is not possible to show a non-kick in a kick situation through a good angle. Because once contact is made, every single angle will show that contact is made. Try to visualize this in your head in a drafting sort of view from 6 different angles.

The play on Nash was borderline, but it was a legal move. David Robinson got a concussion by standing too close on defense, and was called for a foul, at least Nash got the foul called in favour of him. As for the one on Stoudemire, it must have been the weakest dirty play. Go check the history, Stoudemire didn't even know that he got "kicked", he started yapping to the media a day after the game, apparently after he reviewed the tape. Other angles showed that Bowen had his feet between Stoudemire's legs on that play, and Stoudemire proceeded to shut up about it.

The single dirty play that I could recall from Bowen was the kick in Allen's back after they fell on the floor. I have said that numerous times in this thread alone.



First of all, Horry is not my goon, as I don't really own the Spurs. Second of all, Horry is not even a goon. This is the first memorable hard foul I could recall in his 14 year or so career.

So was Nash suspended for this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Scmx1z94WAI
It was obvious it happened, why wasn't he suspended?

What makes you say that the league will turn a blind eye and ignore incidents? Kobe elbowing Ginobili in the face got Kobe a suspension, but there were definitely doubts about his intent.

Nowitzki hurting AK47 and he was suspended a game, it sure looks accidental from every possible angle, but he was suspended. Pray tell?

Guys, he's getting off on this, that's all it is. Let it rest and you'll deprive him of his fun. He's wrong, he knows it, and he's just messing with us. It is painfully obvious that an amoeba is too intelligent to fall for his logic, so he's clearly not expecting anyone to accept his crap. He's just throwing outrageous things out there to drive people crazy.

There is no need for me to respond.

Stop ignoring points in other posts that clearly refute you and actually show some logic, then we'll see.

And I ask, what points?

*snaps fingers* I KNEW we were missing something. I forgot, you need to kick players that are down, give them bloody noses, and go after their achilles heel...no, not the proverbial one, the literal one. Yeah, THAT'S what you need to do to win championships. I KNEW we were forgetting something.

Not addressed to me, but then this is not Bowen specific.

Maybe that's why Suns fans get so angry? Because the NBA rewards dirty play in the playoffs? Because there are two sets of rules? Because cheaters get rewarded? Since all of the above are unquestionably true, it's small wonder you hear a lot about it from Suns fans. And rightfully so.

Again, not Bowen specific.

That's a great argument for why Bowen isn't dirty. Oh wait...

Not responded to what I said, devoid of any content.

 

[ambchang_]

Ok so then according to you, Bowen was punched in the nuts twice and then didn't retaliate......yeah that sounds just like Bruce Bowen. He shouldn't have been straddling Paul to begin with, but if he wants to chase after the ball then he would've known that he would have to step over the guy he was standing over.......not just turn his body and kick the guy on the ground (except he wanted to kick him, which is why he did it again).

No, Bowen was hit twice inadvertantly, it wasn't a dirty play by Paul, and it wasn't a dirty play by Bowen. Saying that he was "punched" was a direct play on how Bowen "kneed" or "kicked" Paul, a way of saying how exaggerated it is.

And straddling while fighting for loose ball is perfectly legal, as long as you are not stepping on the defender. So I am not sure what is so wrong about that.

Look at the video, he never attempted to kick Paul.

 

[Cheesewater]

other than the Allen kick, all the other ones were accidents. He gets very close to his man and results in contact.

Bumping a guy with your body is what happens when you get very close to your man. Swinging your leg and foot under a player, pivoting to the OUTSIDE when on the sideline to knee a player in the junk, leading with your foot when jumping AT a shooter...those are not accidents.

It is not "clear" he made contact? What about it is clear he did NOT make contact. He was looking for the loose ball, of course he is going to move, or should all players just stand around and wait for the ball to bounce to wherever it wants?

That is only clear to you. And again, kicking at a prone player is enough. You don't have to make contact. Also, why do you have to kick a guy to look for a loose ball? You don't.

And coach? There is Isiah Thomas, and who else? There is also Bryant and McGrady praising Bowen for his defense. Ray Allen praised him for his defense when they were teammates, Carter is known for half-man half a season. Either Francis or Crawford mentioned that they think Bowen didn't trip people on purpose.

I don't doubt Bowen is respected for his defense. I don't doubt he has been praised for it. But he has also cheap-shotted other players, injured other players, and other players and coaches have also pointed this out. The two things can co-exist. I have seen footage that proves Bowen DID cheap-shot Francis and Crawford; show me the quotation that they think he's clean on those plays.

 

[Cheesewater]

Look at the video, he never attempted to kick Paul.

Yes he did. Twice.