Lombardi: Kolb Should lose his job

[cardpa]

When Kolb comes back to start and he will, I want to see him get the max pass protection that Skelton is getting. If he gets it and continues to fail then I will support putting Skelton back in as the starter. Until that happens or else Skelton is made to play with the tackles being left on islands every pass play and we get to see how he handles it then I cannot support continuing to start Skelton once Kolb is healthy.

Everyone seems to be forgetting that Skelton has benefited from the tackles getting lots of help pass blocking which is probably why the interior of the line looked bad last week. If I am a DC and suddenly I see the lousy OTs of the Cardinals getting lots of help then my focus is to run pressure up the middle and that was obvious the Eagles did that. The results was heavy pressure up the middle instead of from the outside.

I imagine every DC who has to gameplan against the Cardinals must lick their chops and plan to run a lot of pressure from the outside because the OTs of the Cardinals can't pass block worth a lick.

 

[Pariah]

When Kolb comes back to start and he will, I want to see him get the max pass protection that Skelton is getting.

Agreed. While I'd rather continue to see Skelton in there, whoever it is under center needs to succeed.

 

[cardsfanmd]

Kolb isn't losing his job anytime soon. It isn't the amount of money we gave up that makes me want to see Kolb, it's the fact that people (plural, more than 1 person) were responsible for making that deal and so obviously they saw something which led them to believe he was worth the price. I have no doubt they're right, and I want to see what it is. He deserves to start, that's why we brought him in and paid him, and he will start (I'm assuming after the 49er game). He may stink it up like he's been doing and we dump him, but I won't mind a bit when Skelton steps in and starts balling.

This.

 

[cardsfanmd]

It takes a year to understand and feel comfortable in Whiz's offensive system (at least thats what the pundits are saying). Skelton is earning his chance. If he excels against the Niners, its going to be hard to go back to Kolb. But you can bet the starting QB job will be open for grabs in next summer's training camp.

"It takes 2 (two) years to learn Whiz's system"- HOF QB Kurt Warner

 

[Cheesebeef]

"It takes 2 (two) years to learn Whiz's system"- HOF QB Kurt Warner

and yet in Warner's first game, off the bench, the dude completely lit up the Baltimore secondary for 250 yards and 2 TDs in basically two quarters... and then put up something ridiculous like 27 TDs and 3700 yards in just 12 games.

the "it takes years to get Wiz's system" stuff just doesn't wash with the reality of the fact that the second Warner took the field in Wiz's system, he started just torching opposing defenses, leading the team to a 5-3 record and averaging 28 ppg in the second half of his first season.

 

[Totally_Red]

Agree with all of this. The PR and ESPN hype on Kolb was just unfathomable. For anyone before this year to assert anything with certainty about Kolb was extremely premature.

The most laughable part about all of this? Comparing his career arc to Aaron Rodgers. Try Matt Moore.

I'm sure ESPN thinks they are objective, and in many ways they are, but IMO there is an inherent East Coast bias built in. Two of their most prominent reporter/analysts are Ron Jaworski and Sal Pal. Both are Philly guys. I'm not saying, I'm just saying.

If Kurt Warner says it takes a full year to absorb Whis' system, then it take a full year to absorb the system. I still expected more THIS year out of Kevin Kolb.

 

[kerouac9]

and yet in Warner's first game, off the bench, the dude completely lit up the Baltimore secondary for 250 yards and 2 TDs in basically two quarters... and then put up something ridiculous like 27 TDs and 3700 yards in just 12 games.

the "it takes years to get Wiz's system" stuff just doesn't wash with the reality of the fact that the second Warner took the field in Wiz's system, he started just torching opposing defenses, leading the team to a 5-3 record and averaging 28 ppg in the second half of his first season.

Yup. It might take a year to master this system, but it doesn't take a year to show some ability to operate it.

Good googly moogly, how handcuffed was #7 his first year in Whis's system? He attempted 150 passes that first year, if you include his attempts in the preseason. After Whis started bringing Warner off the bench in Baltimore, he never attempted more than 13 passes in a game.

 

[Phrazbit]

I dont think the first stages of learning Whiz's system involves running backwards and missing open guys on easy throws.

Kolb's problems are not system problems. The guy has been in the league 5 years and he is making fundamental mistakes that would be troubling from a rookie.

 

[WildBB]

Here, here.

++1

 

[WildBB]

TJ, the biggest problem with Kolb isn't a system problem. Were he simply struggling to find open receivers and unsure how to go about his reads, then I would be confident he may eventually be able to get over those problems. No matter what anyone says, it isn't a system problem that he ignores the pocket and runs around in a way that makes it impossible for him to succeed. They may have taught more scrambling in Philly, but they didn't teach utter pocket stupidity, and they didn't teach him to scramble OUT of a play. That is ALL on him, and is not a system problem in the least.

Guy has plenty to prove. He may not get the chance this yr. now.

 

[Fiasco]

Everyone seems to be forgetting that Skelton has benefited from the tackles getting lots of help pass blocking which is probably why the interior of the line looked bad last week. If I am a DC and suddenly I see the lousy OTs of the Cardinals getting lots of help then my focus is to run pressure up the middle and that was obvious the Eagles did that. The results was heavy pressure up the middle instead of from the outside.
.

Some people seem to be forgettig that the tackles get lots of help with pass blocking because they have a smaller area of the field to try and defend because Skelton stays in the pocket.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Some people seem to be forgettig that the tackles get lots of help with pass blocking because they have a smaller area of the field to try and defend because Skelton stays in the pocket.

yup. and who is anyone really kidding? it's not like the o-line has given Skelton a ton of time back there either. he just hangs in there instead of bailing immediately which makes it appear as if he's got more time. all part of having pocket presence.

 

[Dayman]

This is from a fantasy football article, but it still illustrates the stark difference between Skelton and Kolb in their utilization of Fitz. Fitz seeing only 5 red zone targets in 7 games with Kolb is criminal.

• John Skelton for president! That's what Larry Fitzgerald owners are saying after the second-year quarterback figured out what Kevin "corn on the" Kolb could not. "What is this magical discovery Skelton made?" you might ask. Well, it's actually pretty simple. Skelton realized that Larry Fitzgerald is one of the best receivers to ever play in the NFL and it just might be a good idea to throw him the ball a ton, especially inside the 20-yard line, so his big-time player could make big-time plays. In seven games with Kevin Kolb, Larry Fitzgerald averaged 8.3 targets per game, saw only five red zone targets and caught just one red zone touchdown. In two games with John "Einstein" Skelton, Fitzgerald has seen a total of 25 targets and was targeted four times in the red zone, resulting in three red zone scores. So, thanks to this groundbreaking, forward-thinking notion, Fitzgerald caught more touchdowns in the last two games than he had in seven games with Kolb. No wonder Kolb had three scores and a pathetic red zone touchdown rate (15 percent), while Skelton already has four touchdowns and a 57 percent red zone touchdown rate. I speak for all of us when saying Skelton should stay the starter in Arizona if for no one's sake other than that of The Professional Larry Fitzgerald.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

I know I'm in the minority, but I think Kolb will eventually turn it around and be pretty good. And, i started a thread about how pathetic he looke when I saw him live. However, I have said that I would play Skelton until he loses.

The big difference no one is mentioning is that Kolb has alot more presuure on him than Skelton. He came in, signed a big contract, and was seen as the savior and missing piece to the puzzle. Combine that with a new system and a bad OL, I can see why he has struggled. Skelton came into a perfect situation. The team had lost 6 straight, they were playing at home against a terrible Rams team hell-bent on stopping the run, and he had absolutely zero expectations placed upon him. Big deal if he stunk it up, no one cared either way. I give him alot of credit for making people think he should start. He seems pretty unflappable, but we'll see how he does now that he has defensive coordinator's attention. Which I'm certain he does after throwing for 300+ and winning in Philly. I would be very happy if Skelton excels and never gives the job up. BUt, at the same time, I'm not writing Kolb off yet either.

 

[Duckjake]

Some people seem to be forgettig that the tackles get lots of help with pass blocking because they have a smaller area of the field to try and defend because Skelton stays in the pocket.

True. In watching the replay some tonight I didn't see the Cardinals doing anything different in pass blocking. Only a couple of times did they give the Tackles any help and the one time they did have a max protect going with two TEs blocking, goofball Keith blocked the wrong guy leaving a defender a clear path to the QB and Skelton had to throw the ball away. You gotta love the Cardinals.

 

[CFLredzoned]

I think I've seen enough interviews and press conferences to read between the lines and know exactly what Whiz is thinking on this. It's going to be an open competition next year. Inside, Whiz is pulling for Skelton because he's doing everything synonymous with "making plays", as Whiz likes to put it: Making first downs. Scoring in the red zone. Pulling through in the clutch. He believes Skelton will be the starter next year. But he has to be tactful in getting to that point, allowing nature to take its course.

Since the competition won't be official until training camp, what remains of this season will continue to be an experiment, with Kolb remaining the official starter. Since Skelton has yet to face an elite defense and Kolb has already faced elite defenses from Baltimore and Pittsburgh, Skelton will start against San Francisco's elite defense - even if Kolb is healthy enough to play.

Since our defense started playing great only after Kolb became injured, Skelton has an advantage when comparing wins and losses. Whiz will want to see if the new defensive surge is enough to help Kolb over the hump with a victory. The Ram's game will be the perfect game for that test. He has to win that game - especially if Skelton wins against San Fran. Then from there, see if the team can respond and go on a roll, the same way the team responded to Skelton's win against the Rams.

Right now, I think Whiz is the happiest he's been with the QB situation in a long time. You can see it on his poker face. Alot of the pressure is gone. It helps having two character guys who put team first. So far they've held to this and it should make for an interesting competition next year.

 

[kerouac9]

I think I've seen enough interviews and press conferences to read between the lines and know exactly what Whiz is thinking on this. It's going to be an open competition next year. Inside, Whiz is pulling for Skelton because he's doing everything synonymous with "making plays", as Whiz likes to put it: Making first downs. Scoring in the red zone. Pulling through in the clutch. He believes Skelton will be the starter next year. But he has to be tactful in getting to that point, allowing nature to take its course.

Since the competition won't be official until training camp, what remains of this season will continue to be an experiment, with Kolb remaining the official starter. Since Skelton has yet to face an elite defense and Kolb has already faced elite defenses from Baltimore and Pittsburgh, Skelton will start against San Francisco's elite defense - even if Kolb is healthy enough to play.

Since our defense started playing great only after Kolb became injured, Skelton has an advantage when comparing wins and losses. Whiz will want to see if the new defensive surge is enough to help Kolb over the hump with a victory. The Ram's game will be the perfect game for that test. He has to win that game - especially if Skelton wins against San Fran. Then from there, see if the team can respond and go on a roll, the same way the team responded to Skelton's win against the Rams.

Right now, I think Whiz is the happiest he's been with the QB situation in a long time. You can see it on his poker face. Alot of the pressure is gone. It helps having two character guys who put team first. So far they've held to this and it should make for an interesting competition next year.

Apparently you just started watching this team. Whis hates Skelton. He put all his eggs in the Kolb basket, even though Skelton made the same kind of plays last year--and he's even better this year.

Whis wouldn't elevate Skelton above Max Hall on the roster last year until injuries forced him to. Whis had immediate buyer's remorse on Skelton.

This is the second time in two years that Skelton has made Whis look the fool. Whis is miserable that he has to get these questions from the press after talking up and giving up the farm for his boy Kevin, who obviously stinks.

If he's happy about Skelton's development at all, it's because there's a slim chance that John may have saved his job.

 

[Jetstream Green]

I like Skelton but he still has a way to go. Skelton is far ahead of Kolb in one crucial area- THE PLAYBOOK

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Apparently you just started watching this team. Whis hates Skelton. He put all his eggs in the Kolb basket, even though Skelton made the same kind of plays last year--and he's even better this year.

Whis wouldn't elevate Skelton above Max Hall on the roster last year until injuries forced him to. Whis had immediate buyer's remorse on Skelton.

This is the second time in two years that Skelton has made Whis look the fool. Whis is miserable that he has to get these questions from the press after talking up and giving up the farm for his boy Kevin, who obviously stinks.

If he's happy about Skelton's development at all, it's because there's a slim chance that John may have saved his job.

Was this meant to be sarcastic? You normally have many points I agree with and are an intelligent poster but maybe your hatred for Kolb has skewed you in this matter. I don't want to be bereft of facts, but I'll do my best.
Whiz traded up to get Skelton
Whiz said the plan was for Skelton not to play a single down last year.
Whiz has repeatedly stated that he is happy with Skelton's development and he, and the team, thinks he has a bright future.

Max Hall, while he didn't have the size or arm, played against better competition in a pass happy offense at BYU and was more mature, as a player, than Skelton last year. I'm sure Whiz knew Skelton had a brighter future but Hall was the right guy at the time.

Of course, Whiz put his eggs in Kolb's bakset. I don't think there is any NFL coach that would have been comfortable turning things over to guy from Fordham just starting his 2nd year. I remember when Parcells was coaching Dallas and everyone was calling for Romo. Parcells said he just not ready yet and he'll play when he is.

NFL coaches, no matter what, are going to play the guys they think give them the best chance to win. Now, once a guy gets his chance and takes advantage of it, like Skelton has, the coach will re-think his position.
Skelton got blown away in the final game last year and completed less than 50% of his passes overall and was obvioulsy not ready. Addressing the QB situation was priority #1. Do you really think if the Cards thought they could go, say 10-6, or even just win the division with Skelton, that they would have traded away DRC, a #2 pick, and spent all that money on another QB when they had the guy playing for nothing sitting on their roster? Maybe the Cards hit the jackpot with Skelton like NE did with Brady but, in both cases, neither coach could have reasonably expected either guy to step in and take the lead like they have. And, I'm not comparing Skelton to Brady because he may still fall flat on his face. I'm just comparing the sitautions of a late round pick being called upon and winning. The difference is Brady was a multi-year starter at Michigan and Skelton was playing, basically high school football, at Fordham.

Whether Kolb was the right guy, or not, remains to be seen and thus far he hasn't been. But there's is no way the team was going, or should have gone, into this season with a plan of having Skeltoon as their starter. At least not if they were planning on being competitive. Now Skelton may prove everyone wrong but to name him the starter would be saying to everyone, we are starting over, going to develop the young guy, and are looking to the future. I have never heard of a coach doing that with a low round pick. That may be the route they should have gone but coaches are not going to stake their livelihood on turning to, and waiting to develop, a 5th round pick out of Fordham at the expense of winning. The low round guy has to prove himself able to clearly outplay the competition and not be a project, like the guy who beat out Heath Shuler. It would be different if Skelton had been a #1 pick and the team turned to him. That's the just the way it is. 1st round picks, guys that get big contracts, get more leeway.

 

[BigRedRage]

Apparently you just started watching this team. Whis hates Skelton. He put all his eggs in the Kolb basket, even though Skelton made the same kind of plays last year--and he's even better this year.

Whis wouldn't elevate Skelton above Max Hall on the roster last year until injuries forced him to. Whis had immediate buyer's remorse on Skelton.

This is the second time in two years that Skelton has made Whis look the fool. Whis is miserable that he has to get these questions from the press after talking up and giving up the farm for his boy Kevin, who obviously stinks.

If he's happy about Skelton's development at all, it's because there's a slim chance that John may have saved his job.

I think you are overreacting. Whiz hates skelton couldnt be more untrue in my eyes. When they drafted him they called him a 3 yr project. Started max hall first because Hall is far more polished, hes just too small to get it done. I think Qhiz likes skelton a lot but sees him as another year away from having a shot at permanent starter.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

I like Skelton but he still has a way to go. Skelton is far ahead of Kolb in one crucial area- THE PLAYBOOK

Knowing the playbook does not help one throw with accuracy or get better arm strength or develop pocket presence. Yeah, Skelton has a way to go. That can be said of of any rookie out of a FCS school who's only had one offseason as a third stringer and a handful of NFL snaps. But the guy at least looks the part of an NFL QB unlike Kolb who has probably 10x more experience and coaching guidance under his belt.

Kolb should be off the roster next year. The guy just simply will never be a quality NFL quarterback. Skelton at least has a chance.

 

[conraddobler]

Knowing the playbook does not help one throw with accuracy or get better arm strength or develop pocket presence. Yeah, Skelton has a way to go. That can be said of of any rookie out of a FCS school who's only had one offseason as a third stringer and a handful of NFL snaps. But the guy at least looks the part of an NFL QB unlike Kolb who has probably 10x more experience and coaching guidance under his belt.

Kolb should be off the roster next year. The guy just simply will never be a quality NFL quarterback. Skelton at least has a chance.

I would say there is no point in cutting Kolb now, might as well let him go through camp and compete for the job next year now, after that if he fails he can spend next year as a backup then we can cut him.

Salary cap wise I think this makes sense, not sure when the earliest realistic cut could be made but that's how I'd do it.

We have to find someone else to be a backup if Kolb goes anyhow, we should already be looking in case IMO and we shouldn't let Skelton's play no matter how good it gets trick us into being unprepared at the position for next year, we should have learned this much at least by now.

 

[SunsTzu]

we should have learned this much at least by now.

"We" as fans? Maybe. "We" as the Cards organization? Doubtful.

 

[kerouac9]

Was this meant to be sarcastic? You normally have many points I agree with and are an intelligent poster but maybe your hatred for Kolb has skewed you in this matter. I don't want to be bereft of facts, but I'll do my best.
Whiz traded up to get Skelton
Whiz said the plan was for Skelton not to play a single down last year.
Whiz has repeatedly stated that he is happy with Skelton's development and he, and the team, thinks he has a bright future.

Max Hall, while he didn't have the size or arm, played against better competition in a pass happy offense at BYU and was more mature, as a player, than Skelton last year. I'm sure Whiz knew Skelton had a brighter future but Hall was the right guy at the time.

Of course, Whiz put his eggs in Kolb's bakset. I don't think there is any NFL coach that would have been comfortable turning things over to guy from Fordham just starting his 2nd year. I remember when Parcells was coaching Dallas and everyone was calling for Romo. Parcells said he just not ready yet and he'll play when he is.

NFL coaches, no matter what, are going to play the guys they think give them the best chance to win. Now, once a guy gets his chance and takes advantage of it, like Skelton has, the coach will re-think his position.
Skelton got blown away in the final game last year and completed less than 50% of his passes overall and was obvioulsy not ready. Addressing the QB situation was priority #1. Do you really think if the Cards thought they could go, say 10-6, or even just win the division with Skelton, that they would have traded away DRC, a #2 pick, and spent all that money on another QB when they had the guy playing for nothing sitting on their roster? Maybe the Cards hit the jackpot with Skelton like NE did with Brady but, in both cases, neither coach could have reasonably expected either guy to step in and take the lead like they have. And, I'm not comparing Skelton to Brady because he may still fall flat on his face. I'm just comparing the sitautions of a late round pick being called upon and winning. The difference is Brady was a multi-year starter at Michigan and Skelton was playing, basically high school football, at Fordham.

Whether Kolb was the right guy, or not, remains to be seen and thus far he hasn't been. But there's is no way the team was going, or should have gone, into this season with a plan of having Skeltoon as their starter. At least not if they were planning on being competitive. Now Skelton may prove everyone wrong but to name him the starter would be saying to everyone, we are starting over, going to develop the young guy, and are looking to the future. I have never heard of a coach doing that with a low round pick. That may be the route they should have gone but coaches are not going to stake their livelihood on turning to, and waiting to develop, a 5th round pick out of Fordham at the expense of winning. The low round guy has to prove himself able to clearly outplay the competition and not be a project, like the guy who beat out Heath Shuler. It would be different if Skelton had been a #1 pick and the team turned to him. That's the just the way it is. 1st round picks, guys that get big contracts, get more leeway.

Can you find me the source that says that Whis is happy with Skelton's development and thinks that he has a bright future? Because I've heard nothing but criticism of Skelton unless it's prompted by a direct question from the press. Like with Calais Campbell, who is another guy who apparently only merits the most qualified of praise, while a guy like Mike Adams gets unqualified, effusive talking up.

There's no evidence that Whis was personally the guy who targeted Skelton and moved up to get him. It could just as easily be an Anquan Boldin situation where someone in the scouting department identified him and demanded that we go get him. What is the evidence to back this up?

Whis was starting Hall after it was clear he had no place in the NFL, and gave the Cards zero chance to win after the New Orleans game.
Whis insisted that there was a quarterback competition between Skelton and Richard Bartel, who had been just signed from being a backup in the NFL.
Whis gave no praise to Skelton during the offseason, even when it was clear that we would have to get some veteran to come in and start.

YOU'RE sure that Whis knew that Skelton had a better future, but there's no evidence to support that. YOU'RE sure that Kolb is going to be a good starter in the NFL, despite a dozen or so starts that place him firmly among the worst quarterbacks in the NFL.

I never said that the Cards should've gone into the season with Skelton as the starter. You know my plan for the offseason, and it was to get a guy who has thus far thrown 11 TDs against 3 INTs and you apparently continue to believe is awful.

As I said all offseason, trading for Kolb closes down the possibility of developing Skelton or drafting a quarterback in the first round of the 2012 draft. That would continue to be the case had not Kolb suffered another injury that went from "day to day" to "out for a full month and maybe more."

You can continue to insist that the Cards had the option of starting Skelton to begin the 2011 season or trade a king's ransom and a giant contract for a guy who's been average at best as an NFL starter in Kevin Kolb, but that wasn't the case in February, and it's not the case now.

The Cards would have been as well off right now and better off in the future if they'd signed Tavaris Jackson in free agency than having traded for Kolb. Kolb, according to FootballOutsiders' rankings, is better than only A.J. Feeley, Tim Tebow (as a passer), Matt Cassel, Curtis Painter, and Blaine Gabbert.

Skelton isn't much better, but he's been better than Sam Bradford and Carson Palmer.

And that's adjusted for defenses faced.

This isn't about Kolb being dreadful--clearly he has been--it's about whether we can trust Ken Whisenhunt's evaluation of quarterbacks. And other than taking a two-time NFL MVP and one-time Super Bowl MVP ahead of a second-year quarterback, I don't think there's much evidence to suggest that Whis can identify quarterback talent any better than most of the independent thinkers on this board.

 

[CFLredzoned]

Can you find me the source that says that Whis is happy with Skelton's development and thinks that he has a bright future?

Just listen to his recent interviews. He's changed his tune since last year. Last year, it was "John is raw, etc." Now he's heaping praise. The stuff that Whiz is really big on like making first downs, "making plays", being clutch. He's acknowledging all of these things about Skelton lately.