Lombardi: Kolb Should lose his job

[kerouac9]

Just listen to his recent interviews. He's changed his tune since last year. Last year, it was "John is raw, etc." Now he's heaping praise. The stuff that Whiz is really big on like making first downs, "making plays", being clutch. He's acknowledging all of these things about Skelton lately.

Quote and link, please. I listen to every presser, and the praise has been qualified, not effusive.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Quote and link, please. I listen to every presser, and the praise has been qualified, not effusive.

um... have you watched Skelton so far? doesn't qualified praise seem like the appropriate response from Wiz so far?

i think you'd be hard pressed to really make the argument that he HATES Skelton. I've heard a different tenor from Wiz in regards to Skelton right now as opposed to him last season.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Can you find me the source that says that Whis is happy with Skelton's development and thinks that he has a bright future? Because I've heard nothing but criticism of Skelton unless it's prompted by a direct question from the press. Like with Calais Campbell, who is another guy who apparently only merits the most qualified of praise, while a guy like Mike Adams gets unqualified, effusive talking up.

There's no evidence that Whis was personally the guy who targeted Skelton and moved up to get him. It could just as easily be an Anquan Boldin situation where someone in the scouting department identified him and demanded that we go get him. What is the evidence to back this up?

Whis was starting Hall after it was clear he had no place in the NFL, and gave the Cards zero chance to win after the New Orleans game.
Whis insisted that there was a quarterback competition between Skelton and Richard Bartel, who had been just signed from being a backup in the NFL.
Whis gave no praise to Skelton during the offseason, even when it was clear that we would have to get some veteran to come in and start.

YOU'RE sure that Whis knew that Skelton had a better future, but there's no evidence to support that. YOU'RE sure that Kolb is going to be a good starter in the NFL, despite a dozen or so starts that place him firmly among the worst quarterbacks in the NFL.

I never said that the Cards should've gone into the season with Skelton as the starter. You know my plan for the offseason, and it was to get a guy who has thus far thrown 11 TDs against 3 INTs and you apparently continue to believe is awful.

As I said all offseason, trading for Kolb closes down the possibility of developing Skelton or drafting a quarterback in the first round of the 2012 draft. That would continue to be the case had not Kolb suffered another injury that went from "day to day" to "out for a full month and maybe more."

You can continue to insist that the Cards had the option of starting Skelton to begin the 2011 season or trade a king's ransom and a giant contract for a guy who's been average at best as an NFL starter in Kevin Kolb, but that wasn't the case in February, and it's not the case now.

The Cards would have been as well off right now and better off in the future if they'd signed Tavaris Jackson in free agency than having traded for Kolb. Kolb, according to FootballOutsiders' rankings, is better than only A.J. Feeley, Tim Tebow (as a passer), Matt Cassel, Curtis Painter, and Blaine Gabbert.

Skelton isn't much better, but he's been better than Sam Bradford and Carson Palmer.

And that's adjusted for defenses faced.

This isn't about Kolb being dreadful--clearly he has been--it's about whether we can trust Ken Whisenhunt's evaluation of quarterbacks. And other than taking a two-time NFL MVP and one-time Super Bowl MVP ahead of a second-year quarterback, I don't think there's much evidence to suggest that Whis can identify quarterback talent any better than most of the independent thinkers on this board.

here's a quote from Whiz in a June interview on the NFL radio:

I still feel very good about John Skelton as a young player and I think he will be a much better player. And we might be able to operate efficiently with John Skelton in his second year.

More on Skelton later in pre season:

Whiz said that Skelton was a much better quarterback during this season's camp, not because of the stats he posted, but because of the way he handled himself in the huddle and on the field.​

​

Also, don't put words in my mouth to benefit your cause. Find one place where I said I'm so sure Kolb is going to be a good starter. I said I haven't given up on him and wouldn't be surprised to see him turn it around. That sounds alot different than "you're so sure Kolb is going to be a good starter.

Yes, i still believe Alex Smith is awful. When he can win a game for the Niners, let me know. 9 games in a conservative, protect the QB at all costs so he doesn't cost us the game offense doesn't negate 5 years of pure putrid QB play. I think it's funny you crucify Kolb after according to you, "a dozen or so starts that firmly place among the worst in the NFL" yet tout Alex Smith and his career 75 passer rating over 5 years and 54 starts that placed him firmly among the worst in the NFL.​

 

[Phrazbit]

I am not buying Alex Smith stock. And I think he would have been abysmal here. It doesnt make the trade for Kolb any more forgivable, because flopping with Smith wouldnt have cost much, while the Kolb flop will be very pricey.

Smiths only real job in the offense is "dont kill us". Even in the games they've been trailing late, they have still relied on their running game to do most of their work. Smith has minimized his failures, he deserves credit on that front, but he isnt exactly lighting it up. They have the 29th rated passing attack, at some point their passing game is going to have to win a game or two for them and I strongly doubt it will come through.

 

[kerouac9]

Yes, i still believe Alex Smith is awful. When he can win a game for the Niners, let me know. 9 games in a conservative, protect the QB at all costs so he doesn't cost us the game offense doesn't negate 5 years of pure putrid QB play. I think it's funny you crucify Kolb after according to you, "a dozen or so starts that firmly place among the worst in the NFL" yet tout Alex Smith and his career 75 passer rating over 5 years and 54 starts that placed him firmly among the worst in the NFL. [/LEFT]

He's won 8 of them for the 49ers, just this year. Thanks for playing.

 

[kerouac9]

um... have you watched Skelton so far? doesn't qualified praise seem like the appropriate response from Wiz so far?

i think you'd be hard pressed to really make the argument that he HATES Skelton. I've heard a different tenor from Wiz in regards to Skelton right now as opposed to him last season.

"Hates" is probably over-stating it. But he certainly doesn't like him or has been making the effusive praise that the OP puts out there:

Inside, Whiz is pulling for Skelton ...He believes Skelton will be the starter next year...

...Skelton will start against San Francisco's elite defense - even if Kolb is healthy enough to play.

...Right now, I think Whiz is the happiest he's been with the QB situation in a long time. You can see it on his poker face. Alot of the pressure is gone. It helps having two character guys who put team first. So far they've held to this and it should make for an interesting competition next year.

"You can see it on his poker face"?! LOL. I'm sure that Whis is relieved that he's gone from "embattled" to merely "disappointing," but I think that he'd prefer that Kolb had been good instead of a slightly better passer than Tim Tebow.

And there's been nothing in Whis's words or actions that suggests that he believes that Skelton is a future starting quarterback for the Arizona Cardinals.

 

[Cheesebeef]

He's won 8 of them for the 49ers, just this year. Thanks for playing.

this is true, but do you call Trent Dilfer a good qb because he was the starter for a Bucs team that won 11-5 with an insane D... or a Super Bowl Ravens team? you know simple wins and losses don't tell the whole story on QBs.

 

[kerouac9]

this is true, but do you call Trent Dilfer a good qb because he was the starter for a Bucs team that won 11-5 with an insane D... or a Super Bowl Ravens team? you know simple wins and losses don't tell the whole story on QBs.

Yeah, Dilfer was a "good QB". So is Alex Smith. Hasn't lived up to his draft status as isn't going to win (m)any games for you on his own, but I'd rather have Alex Smith on a one year, $4 million contract than Kevin Kolb on a 5 year, $60 million contract.

 

[Phrazbit]

Yeah, Dilfer was a "good QB". So is Alex Smith. Hasn't lived up to his draft status as isn't going to win (m)any games for you on his own, but I'd rather have Alex Smith on a one year, $4 million contract than Kevin Kolb on a 5 year, $60 million contract.

This I would agree with, but only because one pile of garbage is cheaper than another.

9 weeks of games where Smith has been leaned on less than any QB in the NFL is not enough to convince me he is good. It does not outweigh an entire career of crap.

And his "success" this year has come by simplifying the offense to an extreme degree. You think he would have succeeded here in this offense?

I agree that I would take him over Kolb, but not because Smith is good, only because we could have gotten rid of him sooner. Either way the Cards wouldnt go anywhere relying on either QB.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

He's won 8 of them for the 49ers, just this year. Thanks for playing.

.

Good repsonse. Maybe you should have just said , noh-uh, or sez-you.

Using your logic, Kerry Collins and his career 81-99 W/L record, 55% completion rate and 73.8 QB rating was a good QB because he went 12-3 in Tennessee one year.

But I guess if you think Trent Dilfer and his career 55% completion rate and 70.2 QB rating is "a good QB" then, well, then....... I don't know what to say. I guess I could just say Raynoch Thompson was a good LB and be done with it.

 

[Duckjake]

This I would agree with, but only because one pile of garbage is cheaper than another.

9 weeks of games where Smith has been leaned on less than any QB in the NFL is not enough to convince me he is good. It does not outweigh an entire career of crap.

And his "success" this year has come by simplifying the offense to an extreme degree. You think he would have succeeded here in this offense?

I agree that I would take him over Kolb, but not because Smith is good, only because we could have gotten rid of him sooner. Either way the Cards wouldnt go anywhere relying on either QB.

Considering that no QB has succeeded in Arizona with this offense other than Kurt Warner I'd say no he'd fail too.

I just don't understand how people can knock a QB for succeeding in a simplified offense. Instead they should be knocking the idiot coaches for trying to run an offense that is so complex almost no QB can make it work.

Note, I'm not talking about a gimmick offense that Defenses eventually figure out and stop.

 

[kerouac9]

.

Good repsonse. Maybe you should have just said , noh-uh, or sez-you.

Using your logic, Kerry Collins and his career 81-99 W/L record, 55% completion rate and 73.8 QB rating was a good QB because he went 12-3 in Tennessee one year.

But I guess if you think Trent Dilfer and his career 55% completion rate and 70.2 QB rating is "a good QB" then, well, then....... I don't know what to say. I guess I could just say Raynoch Thompson was a good LB and be done with it.

You're holding Alex Smith's rookie season still against him. Get over it, dude; it was six years ago.

After his rookie season, Smith has thrown 61 TDs against 45 INTs. He's 931 for 1585 (58.7%) for 10,233 yards (6.45 YPA). That's not awful production. It's slightly below average production.

The last THREE years, Smith has thrown 43 TDs against 25 INTS, going 580 for 950 (61% completion) for 6429 yards (6.76 YPA). Basically, the last three years Alex Smith actually was what people were hoping that Kevin Kolb would be this year.

The funny thing about your "argument," such as it is, is that you don't even bother to dispute my primary contention. I'll put in in all caps just so you don't bother to overlook it again:

THE ARIZONA CARDINALS WOULD BE BETTER OFF WITH ALEX SMITH OR TAVARIS JACKSON THAN THEY ARE RIGHT NOW WITH KEVIN KOLB, BOTH IN THE PRESENT AND GOING FORWARD.

Saying that Alex Smith is a crummy QB doesn't change the fact that Kevin Kolb has been an awful QB.

And the worst part? Alex Smith is all of eight months older than Kevin Kolb. If you believe that Alex Smith is who he is, and isn't going to get better, what does that say about Kevin Kolb?

Finally, I know that "Trent Dilfer" is now shorthand for "mediocre QB play backed by a good defense," but Alex Smith has been light years better than Dilfer was for the 2000 Ravens team. Dilfer ended up that regular season completing less than 60% of his passes and throwing 12 TDs against 10 INTs as a starter.

 

[CFLredzoned]

Quote and link, please. I listen to every presser, and the praise has been qualified, not effusive.

Of course the praise has been qualified. Has Whiz ever praised anybody without qualifying something?

Here, on Doug and Wolf, Monday the 14th, 5:00 to 6:00: http://www.arizonasports.com/templates/audio_player.php?a=14778

"He's done what we've expected him to do. That's come in… he's made some good plays. He's made some bad plays. He's managed the game well. The thing that he's done that I've been very impressed about is he's done some good things in the 4th quarter and that's really a mark of somebody that you're excited about, seeing how they've progressed. We're happy with what we have in John. He's still got a lot of work to do and obviously in order for us to become a really good football team, we've got to clean those things up, whether it's Kevin or whether it's John Skelton, some of the mistakes that we've making early in the games, we have to get rid of. But in speaking specifically of John, the thing that you have to understand, he has not had an offseason, he got very little practice and reps last year before he played four games, and he got very little this year because he got hurt in the exhibition season with a high ankle sprain and missed about four weeks there. So I'm pleased with how much he's been able to process and make plays, and do those kind of things. And I just think that he's going to continue to get better as he gets more reps."

So yeah, think this is consistent with "praise", especially coming from Whiz. What's very telling to me is that when asked about a QB controversy, he never states emphatically, or even at all, "Kevin is our QB. There is no controversy." Instead, he sidesteps it by reminding us that Kolb still has not been cleared to play. Then he shuts it down. He's done this twice now. That, in my opinion, is very telling.

Then in this presser: http://www.azcardinals.com/photos-v...ying-Off/1e660222-e5ce-4760-87b7-f245a8567a5c

"The area that you're most proud of (with) John is how he responded when things didn't go well. He made some good plays at the end of the game. Made some big throws. Moved in the pocket. Obviously, did a great job there. And that's not easy to do when you've thrown a couple of interceptions that have led to points for the other team. So, being able to handle that and stay in there and stay focused and make some plays, is obviously a great sign."

"Moved in the pocket." As opposed to?... But again, no mention of Kolb being the official starter. This, combined with Whiz's words, tells me that it will be a competition next year. It's not a hard leap to make. In addition, I believe, the way Whiz talks about Skelton, he thinks Skelton has more upside, and will be a better QB. That's my OPINION.

So if Kolb is Whiz's guy, I sure haven't heard it over the last two weeks. Got a link for me?

 

[Duckjake]

"Moved in the pocket." As opposed to?... But again, no mention of Kolb being the official starter. This, combined with Whiz's words, tells me that it will be a competition next year. It's not a hard leap to make. In addition, I believe, the way Whiz talks about Skelton, he thinks Skelton has more upside, and will be a better QB. That's my OPINION.

Seems to me that teams with competition at QB usually end up 5-11.

Somebody posted a while back about the Cards not having just one QB far too many times. When you look back at the successful Cardinals teams they all had one guy at QB.

Charley Johnson, Jim Hart, Neil Lomax, Jake Plummer ('98) and Kurt Warner..

 

[CFLredzoned]

Seems to me that teams with competition at QB usually end up 5-11.

Somebody posted a while back about the Cards not having just one QB far too many times. When you look back at the successful Cardinals teams they all had one guy at QB.

Charley Johnson, Jim Hart, Neil Lomax, Jake Plummer ('98) and Kurt Warner..

Yeah. Better to be great at one thing than good at many. Let's just hope the competition works itself out before kickoff game 1.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

The funny thing about your "argument," such as it is, is that you don't even bother to dispute my primary contention. I'll put in in all caps just so you don't bother to overlook it again:

THE ARIZONA CARDINALS WOULD BE BETTER OFF WITH ALEX SMITH OR TAVARIS JACKSON THAN THEY ARE RIGHT NOW WITH KEVIN KOLB, BOTH IN THE PRESENT AND GOING FORWARD.

Saying that Alex Smith is a crummy QB doesn't change the fact that Kevin Kolb has been an awful QB.

And the worst part? Alex Smith is all of eight months older than Kevin Kolb. If you believe that Alex Smith is who he is, and isn't going to get better, what does that say about Kevin Kolb?

I wholeheartedly dispute it. I'm not holding Smith's rookie season against him. I'm holding his first 5 years of suckage against him. Smith has shown what he is, as you stated, a below average QB. He's had 6 years to show what he is. The fact that he's 8 months older than Kolb is irrelevant. If Kolb had played like he has the last few games for 5 years, I would say he is terrible also. Saying Alex Smith is a crummy QB is pretty accurate. Kolb has been bad too. I've never said otherwise. I said I'm giving him more time than 7 games. If he doesn't show improvement by this time next year then I'll say it was a bad move. Just because you were against the move in the off season doesn't mean it was the wrong move.

 

[john h]

Cards aren't going to win out. Watch how healthy Kevin Kolb gets if/when we lose two in a row.

Of course, it's possible that's not going to happen until Week 15. Kolb is really going to be able to shine against the defenses of the Browns, Bengals, and Seahawks.

I have my doubts Kolb is ever going to shine anywhere. For two games now Skelton actually looks like a QB who just needs more experience. He has the presence, the arm, the cool and apparently the smarts and courage. I never even expected he could also run when need be. He may fall on his butt. As of today Skelton appears to be the better QB. By end of the year who knows? There are some good QBs out there like Brady who came in the lower rounds like Skelton did. Jim Hart came to us the same way. I for one hope he turns out to be the one we have been looking for. He has played much better than I expected. Give him 7-8 more games and we might all be shocked or we might not?

 

[kerouac9]

I wholeheartedly dispute it. I'm not holding Smith's rookie season against him. I'm holding his first 5 years of suckage against him. Smith has shown what he is, as you stated, a below average QB. He's had 6 years to show what he is. The fact that he's 8 months older than Kolb is irrelevant. If Kolb had played like he has the last few games for 5 years, I would say he is terrible also. Saying Alex Smith is a crummy QB is pretty accurate. Kolb has been bad too. I've never said otherwise. I said I'm giving him more time than 7 games. If he doesn't show improvement by this time next year then I'll say it was a bad move. Just because you were against the move in the off season doesn't mean it was the wrong move.

Then provide some evidence as to how. Who's the one saying "Nah-uh" now?

EDIT: Pretty class of you to delete the portion of my post where I outline for you how solid Alex Smith has been the last three years. I'll post it again, in the hopes that you'll reply substantively to a substantive post:

After his rookie season, Smith has thrown 61 TDs against 45 INTs. He's 931 for 1585 (58.7%) for 10,233 yards (6.45 YPA). That's not awful production. It's slightly below average production.

The last THREE years, Smith has thrown 43 TDs against 25 INTS, going 580 for 950 (61% completion) for 6429 yards (6.76 YPA). Basically, the last three years Alex Smith actually was what people were hoping that Kevin Kolb would be this year.

If you take the name off the back of the jersey and I told you that I could get a guy with a 3:2 TD:INT ratio and 61% completion percentage for 2 years, $10 million, you would've been all over that deal.

 

[Phrazbit]

I wholeheartedly dispute it. I'm not holding Smith's rookie season against him. I'm holding his first 5 years of suckage against him. Smith has shown what he is, as you stated, a below average QB. He's had 6 years to show what he is. The fact that he's 8 months older than Kolb is irrelevant. If Kolb had played like he has the last few games for 5 years, I would say he is terrible also. Saying Alex Smith is a crummy QB is pretty accurate. Kolb has been bad too. I've never said otherwise. I said I'm giving him more time than 7 games. If he doesn't show improvement by this time next year then I'll say it was a bad move. Just because you were against the move in the off season doesn't mean it was the wrong move.

Kolb has played this year like he has the last 5 years... his career Philly stats and his Arizona stats are mirror images.

 

[nashman]

Phrazbit we get it you hate Kolb. Thats fine but the above is just flat out ignorant Alex Smith has started STARTED a ton of games in this league. Kevin Kolb before coming to AZ to learn and entirely new offense had started less than a seasons worth of games compairing the 2 is ignorant! We get you don't like Kolb and think he stinks and can never get better, but that is just your opinion. I for one would like to see what he can do after getting time and an offseason in our system, I mean after all its not like the Cards are known for cutting players that then go somewhere else and succeed... oh wait. We gave up a lot for the guy it makes ZERO sense to give up on him after 7 games on our team which has glaring problems which make any QB have a tough time running it!

 

[kerouac9]

Phrazbit we get it you hate Kolb. Thats fine but the above is just flat out ignorant Alex Smith has started STARTED a ton of games in this league. Kevin Kolb before coming to AZ to learn and entirely new offense had started less than a seasons worth of games compairing the 2 is ignorant! We get you don't like Kolb and think he stinks and can never get better, but that is just your opinion. I for one would like to see what he can do after getting time and an offseason in our system, I mean after all its not like the Cards are known for cutting players that then go somewhere else and succeed... oh wait. We gave up a lot for the guy it makes ZERO sense to give up on him after 7 games on our team which has glaring problems which make any QB have a tough time running it!

You can only start one quarterback at a time in the NFL. It makes zero sense to continue to lose with a guy who wasn't what you wanted him to be when you have a guy on your roster who isn't a trembling, mistake-prone mess when the game is on the line in the 4th quarter.

Skelton's QB rating is 25 points higher in the 4th quarter than Kolb's is.

 

[Phrazbit]

Phrazbit we get it you hate Kolb. Thats fine but the above is just flat out ignorant Alex Smith has started STARTED a ton of games in this league. Kevin Kolb before coming to AZ to learn and entirely new offense had started less than a seasons worth of games compairing the 2 is ignorant! We get you don't like Kolb and think he stinks and can never get better, but that is just your opinion. I for one would like to see what he can do after getting time and an offseason in our system, I mean after all its not like the Cards are known for cutting players that then go somewhere else and succeed... oh wait. We gave up a lot for the guy it makes ZERO sense to give up on him after 7 games on our team which has glaring problems which make any QB have a tough time running it!

The statement was "If Kevin Kolb had played the last 5 years like he has..."

His stats CLEARLY reflect that he is the same player right now that he was the previous 5 seasons. Scream and kick all you want but it does not change the facts.

And you can call me a hater all you want, but use actual evidence to debate. I dont throw a hissy fit when people dont agree with me. I will actual debate the topic.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Then provide some evidence as to how. Who's the one saying "Nah-uh" now?

EDIT: Pretty class of you to delete the portion of my post where I outline for you how solid Alex Smith has been the last three years. I'll post it again, in the hopes that you'll reply substantively to a substantive post:



If you take the name off the back of the jersey and I told you that I could get a guy with a 3:2 TD:INT ratio and 61% completion percentage for 2 years, $10 million, you would've been all over that deal.

Did you ever watch SF offense the last two years? I would hope he could complete 61% of his passes when a long pass was a 3 yard out. I didn't have to edit out anything, you said yourself that Alex Smith is a below average QB. There's not a thing you, or anyone, can say to convince me Alex Smith is a decent QB. If Smith is the answer, why did SF trade up to 36, giving up their 2nd , 4th , and 5th round picks in the process?

Alex Smith was so solid the last 2 years that he was benched for Troy Smith for crying out loud and Shaun Hill the prior year. I do agree with you, in a vacuum, I would take that production. But they played in an offense that could not push the ball downfield. In the offense they ran, those numbers are not any good. What was ML's comp % in pre-season when he checked it down every play. He had a high rating and good %, but he still was not a very good QB and didn't produce many points.

 

[kerouac9]

Did you ever watch SF offense the last two years? I would hope he could complete 61% of his passes when a long pass was a 3 yard out. I didn't have to edit out anything, you said yourself that Alex Smith is a below average QB. There's not a thing you, or anyone, can say to convince me Alex Smith is a decent QB. If Smith is the answer, why did SF trade up to 36, giving up their 2nd , 4th , and 5th round picks in the process?

Alex Smith was so solid the last 2 years that he was benched for Troy Smith for crying out loud and Shaun Hill the prior year. I do agree with you, in a vacuum, I would take that production. But they played in an offense that could not push the ball downfield. In the offense they ran, those numbers are not any good. What was ML's comp % in pre-season when he checked it down every play. He had a high rating and good %, but he still was not a very good QB and didn't produce many points.

Hard to manage 6.74 YPA when you're only throwing 3 yard outs. That's only a quarter of a yard off the league average. But whatever, clearly facts aren't going to convince you, nor are the unreprochable coaching decisions of personnel expert and master tactician Mike Singletary.

 

[Duckjake]

The statement was "If Kevin Kolb had played the last 5 years like he has..."

His stats CLEARLY reflect that he is the same player right now that he was the previous 5 seasons. Scream and kick all you want but it does not change the facts.

And you can call me a hater all you want, but use actual evidence to debate. I dont throw a hissy fit when people dont agree with me. I will actual debate the topic.

Kolb vs Baltimore 2008 was 10-23. Kolb vs Baltimore 2011 was 10-21.