Long Overdue: The 2-4-5 Defense

[RugbyMuffin]

I have been wanted to post about this for a while now. I really don't know when the Cardinals started to implement this defense as a base package, but I first noticed it when I was at the game in Philly. Since that game, they run this defense a lot. If you haven't notice, then when the defense is on the field just look to see if a NT is out there. If not, then they are probably in this defense.

If you have not noticed the Cardinals play a lot of defensive snaps in a 2-4-5 defense.

DT: Dockett
DT: Campbell

OLB: Haggans
ILB: Lenon
ILB: Washington
OLB: Acho

CB: Peterson
CB: Marshall/Jefferson/Adams

S: Marshall
S: Johnson
S: Wilson


You would think that this would be easy to run on, but our team seems to hold up against the run in this defense.

You would think that having only 2 down linemen is not enough of a pass rush, but in reality they can rush, both linemen, both OLB (4 man), and throw in a DB, and/or a ILB at anytime.

Finalley, the obvious advantage in this defense is that if the opposition tries to spread the defense out, the Cardinals have the personel to cover the match ups in the passing game.

It makes sense, that the Cards seem to run this defense against two minute drills most of the time, but they also use it at just about any point in the game.

Another little thing about this defense that I like, is that it doesn't take a NT to run. That being said you need two stud defensive tackles that understand their role. Dockett, and Campbell do an AMAZING job in this defense. Especially Dockett who is an undersized DT, but he has become a nasty ball of chaos in this defense. The numbers aren't there, but he forces his 290+ lbs frame to require a double team to stop him. Campbell, well, it is well documented that he is a unnatural physical freak of nature. When you are 6'8" and 300+ will quickness, power, and skill, you are commanding a double team the minute you step onto the field of play. Thus 2 DT's take up 4 OL.

Finally, it is the reason for Adrian Wilson's resurgence, IMO. For years we all have talked about letting Wilson "roam free". This defense allows him to do so, thus his success lately.

Say what you want about this defense. The results are showing it is working.

Thoughts, notes, comments ?

 

[Totally_Red]

Nice post. Having Marshall as a flexible DB who can drop back as a safety or move up to cover a #3 or 4 receiver helps free up Wilson. And Wilson has been playing as well as anytime in the last two years IMO.

 

[Pariah]

Didn't Penderghast run something pretty similar quite a bit?

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Didn't Penderghast run something pretty similar quite a bit?

He did. I thought it was wrong then too.

I still feel that they are using Dockett incorrectly, as I feel they are asking him to do things that he shouldn't need to do (play NT for one) if we had players in there that could do them on a consistent basis.

Can't complain about the recent results though.

 

[Duckjake]

The 2-4-5 was getting gouged by the run this season until Acho came in. Having a bigger guy with a lot of recent experience as a 4-3 DE has made a world of difference.

The Cards also ran that formation some last year. Didn't work any better then with Porter than it did earlier this season.

Important to note that the Cards had allowed 100 yards rushing 20 times 2010 through the loss to SF this season. Since then its 3 games in a row under 100.
Arizona hadn't done that since the 2008 playoffs.

 

[Stout]

The 2-4-5 was getting gouged by the run this season until Acho came in. Having a bigger guy with a lot of recent experience as a 4-3 DE has made a world of difference.

The Cards also ran that formation some last year. Didn't work any better then with Porter than it did earlier this season.

Important to note that the Cards had allowed 100 yards rushing 20 times 2010 through the loss to SF this season. Since then its 3 games in a row under 100.
Arizona hadn't done that since the 2008 playoffs.

This. Also, we've been keeping Acho up on the line in that formation; earlier in the year, we literally played 2 on the line and the rest off. THAT formation was getting gouged. THIS one is standing strong. Good stuff, Rugby.

 

[CardLogic]

I was very critical of the 2-4-5 alignment so I'll eat a little crow here. Obviously the players are understanding their roles better now, and playing with intensity.

But as Duckjake mentions when Porter went out and Acho/Schofield were in the defense has produced much better results.

So now I wonder, was the timing of Porter's replacement (due to injury) and the defense's improvement coincedental? Well Porter's practicing again, so I guess we will soon see...

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Didn't Penderghast run something pretty similar quite a bit?

Kinda. But I believe he substituted the 3rd safety for a LB, and not the NT.

But, yes, agreed. Pendergast ran something similar.

 

[Mulli]

The 2-4-5 was getting gouged by the run this season until Acho came in. Having a bigger guy with a lot of recent experience as a 4-3 DE has made a world of difference.

The Cards also ran that formation some last year. Didn't work any better then with Porter than it did earlier this season.

Important to note that the Cards had allowed 100 yards rushing 20 times 2010 through the loss to SF this season. Since then its 3 games in a row under 100.
Arizona hadn't done that since the 2008 playoffs.

That is kinda crazy, right? The rams cowboys and hers have pretty solid runners. Crazy.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

That is kinda crazy, right? The rams cowboys and hers have pretty solid runners. Crazy.

True.

But Gore, as usual, still got a TD against us. Everytime with that guy.

Funny how I have to "convince" the East coast idiots out here how good Frank Gore is.

 

[JeffGollin]

I still view Horton's defense as "11 guys lining up anywhere."

Perhaps the 2-4-5 is the most visible, but I wouldn't be shocked to see us lined up in a 11-0-0, 0-11-0 or a 0-0-11, with any or all 11 defenders on an all out rush, dropping into coverage etc. etc. Or the unlikeliest of guys acting as spies on a QB, a speed-reverse threat or a deep guy in the wildcat.

Think of the field as a giant spread sheet with any of the 11 guys filling any cell.

That's where I think Horton is taking the defense.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

I still view Horton's defense as "11 guys lining up anywhere."

Perhaps the 2-4-5 is the most visible, but I wouldn't be shocked to see us lined up in a 11-0-0, 0-11-0 or a 0-0-11, with any or all 11 defenders on an all out rush, dropping into coverage etc. etc. Or the unlikeliest of guys acting as spies on a QB, a speed-reverse threat or a deep guy in the wildcat.

Think of the field as a giant spread sheet with any of the 11 guys filling any cell.

That's where I think Horton is taking the defense.

11-0-0 ?

Back to the days of the Gritz Blitz !!!!!

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[Stout]

I was very critical of the 2-4-5 alignment so I'll eat a little crow here. Obviously the players are understanding their roles better now, and playing with intensity.

But as Duckjake mentions when Porter went out and Acho/Schofield were in the defense has produced much better results.

So now I wonder, was the timing of Porter's replacement (due to injury) and the defense's improvement coincedental? Well Porter's practicing again, so I guess we will soon see...

No need for you to eat crow, CardLogic. It is technically the same alignment, but with different personnel and different player positions. Then, we not only had two linemen in the game, but we only had two men on the line period. Now, we still have only two linemen, but Acho is lining up on the line of scrimmage with them. So yes, it is still only two linemen, but we actually have a third playing starting at the LOS.

 

[WickedKoolFan]

At the beginning of the season, on the Cardinals radio show after the games, the radio host gave the statistics that showed the 2-4-5 was our worst formation. It gave more running and passing yards than our base 3-4.
Difference now is that the defense understands it more and that Joey Porter not in the lineup.
Also, Gore's 37 yard touchdown was Lenon's fault for over running his gap, which gave a gapping hole for Gore. It wasn't the formation's fault.

 

[SuperSpck]

I just can't wrap my head around how they're making it work.
My butt still puckers each time they line up in it.

 

[Duckjake]

I just can't wrap my head around how they're making it work.
My butt still puckers each time they line up in it.

Fairly easy to understand, especially since it didn't work until recently. Sam Acho is bigger and stronger than Porter. He has years of experience playing DE in a 4 man front. As a result he holds the edge better so teams can't simply run for 13 yards every time the Cards go into that formation.

 

[187]

+1 on how that formation was getting murdered earlier in the season, but has been doing better since Porter went out. From what I can remember Horton was using the 2-4-5 heavily, it was doing awful, and when he pulled back the playbook he ditched this formation for a while. Sunday's game was the most I had noticed us running that formation in a while, although that doesn't mean much.

The key to that formation is being able to at least contain the run, if you can do that is is extremely versatile and allows Horton to bring the heat anywhere, anytime. Dumb comparison that means nothing, but the 2-4-5 and 1-5-5 are a lot of fun to run in Madden. Love the prowl as well where everyone is standing up presnap, I remember Clancy ran that a few times against MN when we were owning Favre on primetime a few years back.

 

[SuperSpck]

Fairly easy to understand, especially since it didn't work until recently. Sam Acho is bigger and stronger than Porter. He has years of experience playing DE in a 4 man front. As a result he holds the edge better so teams can't simply run for 13 yards every time the Cards go into that formation.

But it's a change in splits and leverage over the 4-3. Seems like they're giving up a lot.

 

[Darkside]

Fairly easy to understand, especially since it didn't work until recently. Sam Acho is bigger and stronger than Porter. He has years of experience playing DE in a 4 man front. As a result he holds the edge better so teams can't simply run for 13 yards every time the Cards go into that formation.

I actually disagree with this. Porter contains the edge better than any LB we have. But that's all he can do, is contain outside and force it inside. Porter is actually a good run stuffer, but he can't do anything else, he can't even rush the passer like in years past. The one thing he can do, better than Acho (or anyone else on our team for that matter) is set the edge so rushers have to come inside into the help. I know everyone bags on Porter, myself included, but the one reason they kept him in there, maybe the only reason, was because he provided outside edge help and forced things inside. Without that he's not even playing. I still think he does that better than Acho (or any of our other LB's). He shouldn't be starting, and I think Acho is a better player (physically) but I don't think anyone sets an edge like Porter, he always shut that down and it's the only thing he was good at and the only reason he started for us.

 

[Duckjake]

I actually disagree with this. Porter contains the edge better than any LB we have. But that's all he can do, is contain outside and force it inside. Porter is actually a good run stuffer, but he can't do anything else, he can't even rush the passer like in years past. The one thing he can do, better than Acho (or anyone else on our team for that matter) is set the edge so rushers have to come inside into the help. I know everyone bags on Porter, myself included, but the one reason they kept him in there, maybe the only reason, was because he provided outside edge help and forced things inside. Without that he's not even playing. I still think he does that better than Acho (or any of our other LB's). He shouldn't be starting, and I think Acho is a better player (physically) but I don't think anyone sets an edge like Porter, he always shut that down and it's the only thing he was good at and the only reason he started for us.

We'll have to agree to disagree because I saw Porter getting moved out consistently by blockers in that formation leaving huge holes in the middle of the defense.

 

[Darkside]

We'll have to agree to disagree because I saw Porter getting moved out consistently by blockers in that formation leaving huge holes in the middle of the defense.

Naw man, Porter never got rooted off the edge, he just couldn't recover as quickly as Acho or Scho to make a tackle. If we're talking moving back up in the hole to make a tackle then no. Like I said, he doesn't have many skills in his old age, but setting an edge he can still do, nobody is gonna run outside of him for a long gain. Now if you talk RB's cutting it inside of him and his lack of recovery VS an Acho or Scho, then yeah, but not shutting down that edge position and getting outside of him. Which I think was our topic, so negative.

 

[Duckjake]

Naw man, Porter never got rooted off the edge, he just couldn't recover as quickly as Acho or Scho to make a tackle. If we're talking moving back up in the hole to make a tackle then no. Like I said, he doesn't have many skills in his old age, but setting an edge he can still do, nobody is gonna run outside of him for a long gain. Now if you talk RB's cutting it inside of him and his lack of recovery VS an Acho or Scho, then yeah, but not shutting down that edge position and getting outside of him. Which I think was our topic, so negative.

Well if you think getting moved out so far that there were huge holes to run through inside of him as setting the edge then there is nothing else for us to discuss.

 

[Darkside]

LOL, well we're not talking about him getting rooted to the sidelines, at least I'm not. But I think I get your point, and I hope you get mine. LOL.

 

[Duckjake]

LOL, well we're not talking about him getting rooted to the sidelines, at least I'm not. But I think I get your point, and I hope you get mine. LOL.

Getting rooted to the sidelines is an exaggeration, but not by much. When a team is running a front with only two Dlinemen and a couple of 250lb ends offenses are going to run inside not outside where the smaller, quicker defenders have an advantage. So the end, or OLB if you prefer, has to hold his ground and not get moved from point A to point B. Acho does that better than Porter. That's what I mean when I say Acho sets the edge better than Porter in the 4-2-5. Now asking a guy Porter's size and age to do that was a coaching error as far as I'm concerned and I wasn't shy about criticizing Horton for it earlier in the year.

It's the same problem I had back in the day with Raynoch Thompson. A good kid who was just too small to stand his ground and would get rolled down field by 300+lb linemen and 260lb Tight Ends. It's also the same problem K9 and I had with Daryl Washington until DWash was allowed to just react and attack rather than read and have blockers outweighing him by 80lbs on him before he could react and attack.

 

[Duckjake]

Ironically the big runs Willis was having in the first drive were against the 2-4-5. Also almost every time the Cards had a NT the Browns passed. If they didn't Cleveland ran the ball.

Noticed that while watching the replay.