Lost - The Final Season (Spoilers)

Chaplin

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Sayid is really hard to figure it could have been that after plunging the knife into MIB and seeing nothing happened, and then not being killed, he simply did the math and said I need to be on this guys good side?

Dogen had already tried to kill him and I agree he sent Sayid to kill MIB fully aware it probably wouldn't work, he just expected if it didn't, Sayid would be killed. I guess we're supposed to wonder if Sayid had stabbed him BEFORE MIB said "hello Sayid" he would have died? Dogen immediately said to Sayid you let him talk, and Sayid said only after I stabbed him, but that wasn't true he said hello Sayid first.

I'm still on the fence it's not clear that it's really black and white good vs evil I'm thinking along the lines Gad mentioned there's no clear good or evil both guys are shades of both. I think some of the characters like Kate are still not sure where they stand because they don't know who to believe either.

For Kate, it's all about Claire. My guess, and it's just a guess, is that Kate's mission now will be to make Claire sane again. She did tell Claire she was there to get her so she and Aaron could be together again, but it was obvious Claire didn't believe her or didn't care (which makes no sense).
 

chickenhead

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Oh no problem at all! Chances are half the spoliers are already stuff we've all read, and I don't mind. I'm one of those guys who avoids watching the "next week on Lost" preview, but then ends up reading all about it here on purpose. :D
 

Chaplin

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Oh no problem at all! Chances are half the spoliers are already stuff we've all read, and I don't mind. I'm one of those guys who avoids watching the "next week on Lost" preview, but then ends up reading all about it here on purpose. :D

Well, don't worry, the "next week on Lost" previews all pretty much suck, promising one thing and not delivering.
 

TBaslim

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The story the temple leader guy told Sayid was telling to me. He basically sold his soul to Jacob to save his son. I don't remember any stories from the bible about Jesus doing anything like that.

Yup. I think Gad is on it about the Greek gods. Jacob at this point 'appears' to be more good relative to the MIB, but not in a traditional Judeo-Christian way (Jesus vs Devil).

Jacob doesn't appear to outright kill people, but he does mess with people's lives for his own purposes, and his followers kill people at his apparent (but cloudy) requests. MIB, on the other hand, outright kills and harms people in addition to manipulating them, but for what overall purpose? It appears to be for his own power/desires ("get control of the temple, get off the island"), but the outcome of that and its impact on everyone else is unclear at this point.

Very mythological gods (Greek, Roman, Egyptian) stuff right now. I stick with Jacob being more good then bad because he has not killed directly (so we know), and he is a proponent of some level of free will and hope, re: his conversation on the beach with MIB back in Season 5. But I don't think he is 'all good', as he clearly has an agenda he is pursuing, just like MIB, using the Losties and Others lives as tools to further it.

Like so many things, it all depends on their root agendas. I assume, or at least hope, we will learn both Jacob's and MIB's by the end of the season
 

chickenhead

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I'm still on the fence it's not clear that it's really black and white good vs evil I'm thinking along the lines Gad mentioned there's no clear good or evil both guys are shades of both. I think some of the characters like Kate are still not sure where they stand because they don't know who to believe either.

Me, too. Both Jacob and MIB are manipulative. The island as paradise could be like that Twilight episode where the guy dies and wakes up in a world where he gets everything he wants, and it turns out he's in hell. MIB kills people and Jacob allows loved ones to be killed. Kind of a classic theological debate right there. But again, we still don't know who they are...

Edit: looks like I just paraphrased the post right before mine.
 

Chaplin

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I just realized, that Dogen's "deal" was actually with Jacob, not the MIB, so I don't know if that would make a difference in the alt timeline.
 

Cheesebeef

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yeah... the more i think about it, the less interested I am in seeing the "answers" to questions. Now I'm just looking forward to a hell of an ending where all the survivors are on different sides, having to go through each other to accomplish God knows what. That was a season saver last night. Hooked again.
 

chickenhead

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Dogen's deal with Jacob kept him on the island, and the price was never having his son again. MIB's promise to Sayid was to get back what you could never have again. In the flash-sideways, it's as if Dogen has MIBs deal, and Sayid has Jacob's. Unless Sayid could have Nadia but is separated by choice (because he doesn't feel he deserves her).

I sort of like the idea that no matter the reality, all of these people will have to come together to wage whatever this final conflict is. At first the chance meetings in the new timeline were just cute. Now they seem to have some more purpose (as we assumed).
 

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Anyone think Dogen's actually dead? He was drowned the same way Sayid was. The other guy's a goner, though. Sayid slit his throat.
 

Russ Smith

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We just watched it again on On Demand. When Kate tells Claire that she took Aaron off the island she says "I raised him" and the look on Claire's face is either I'm going to kill you, or shock.

Remember way back when the psychic told Claire that she had to raise her own baby she could NOT let the baby be raised by anybody else? I'm wondering if that look on Claire's face was really fear that because Kate had raised Aaron(even for 3 years) whatever bad thing the psychic saw is already set in motion?

Also interesting Ben tells Sayid there's still time, and he says "not for me". Sayid walks outside with Kate and Claire to the MIB, but we don't really see where Ben goes? He doesn't go into the opening in the wall with those people and I don't think he was in the scene outside with the MIB so where did Ben go?
 

Gaddabout

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The psychic tells Clarie the baby should not be raised by another. Or an Other. Your choice.
 

Chaplin

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We just watched it again on On Demand. When Kate tells Claire that she took Aaron off the island she says "I raised him" and the look on Claire's face is either I'm going to kill you, or shock.

Remember way back when the psychic told Claire that she had to raise her own baby she could NOT let the baby be raised by anybody else? I'm wondering if that look on Claire's face was really fear that because Kate had raised Aaron(even for 3 years) whatever bad thing the psychic saw is already set in motion?

Interesting theory, but wild Claire doesn't seem sane enough to actually come to that conclusion, not 3 1/2 years after the crash.
 

TBaslim

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So, for those who are really into Lost, this guy's stuff is really good:

http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,20313460_20348187,00.html

I'm not normally an 'Entertainment Weekly' reader, but this Doc Jensen guy has the most in-depth, literature-based, wild-flights-of-Lost-fancy I have ever read.

He does a pre-show and post-show article/recap (basically on Tuesdays and Wednesdays).

From the latest recap, pertaining to our discussions...

Dogen angrily banished Sayid into the jungle. Miles asked him why as the allegedly infected Iraqi packed. ''Apparently, I'm evil,'' he said. Before he could leave, Squirrel Nut Claire strolled in. She had been tasked by Friend Flocke to play secretary and schedule an interview with Dogen. Time: Immediately. Location: Ideally someplace where Smokey could kill him. Dogen balked. Ms. Muddypenny coolly countered: Send someone Smokey couldn't kill. Claire was writing checks that two seasons ago her a-- couldn't cash, but now, she was being backed by the Bank of Smokey. The Lockeness Monster had promised her that he'd get Aaron back for her in exchange for her faithful service. His m.o. is now clear: What if I told you could have your heart's desire? It's hard not to hear Fake Locke's enticements and not wonder if what he's offering the castaways is a psychic ticket to Sidewaysville, that if they do what he asks he'll transfer their minds/souls into the bodies of their parallel world doppelgangers.

Of course, his wish-upon-a-star come-ons also sound like he's selling pipe dreams (literally), like Satan tempting Eve with the apple. Yes, it's easy to paint the guy who can make like a serpent and snake-dance around the Island out to be the devil. Dogen goaded us further toward those assumptions, evoking imagery straight out of the classic Twilight Zone episode ''The Howling Man,'' about monks whose appointed ''dharma'' is to keep Lucifer locked in a cell: ''For years he has been trapped, but now Jacob is gone. He is free. This man will not stop until he has destroyed every living thing on the Island. ...He is evll incarnate.''

Yet I'm thinking Dogen was getting it wrong, too, either because he's misinformed or biased because of what Jacob did for his son: spared him from death. In fact, think about the wondrous things associated with Jacob. Richard's eternal youth. The resurrection hot spring. And, if you believe Ben from season 3, a cure for cancer.

Jacob isn't ''good,'' per se — he's just capable of giving life. Put another way: Jacob is the god of beginnings. He is The Alpha. The Man in Black? Not evil — he's the god of endings. He is the Omega. The beginning and the end. Polar, warring opposites, but absolutely necessary for life to bloom (Alpha) and to have form (Omega). Both are necessary for anything to have meaning. Jacob unchecked leads to chaos; Man In Black unchecked leads to annihilation. Both need to exist in balance; both need to be equally weighted rocks on the scale.
His articles are full of stuff like this...just great fun if you are into the show.
 

Gaddabout

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Ying and Yang. Those are NOT centers on the Chinese national basketball team. (Theoretically they would have to be perfectly equal centers on opposing sides, but I'm getting sidetracked).

Incidentally, dharma was a concept that began with Hinduism, not Buddhism, as Hinduism has a much more familiar form of moralism (more closely related to Western views). Hindus have dharmas and andharmas -- people on a righteous path and people on a path lacking virtue or honor. There's more here about about the conflict between order and destruction and the vitality of the caste system, but I have to remember this is a TV show and not a opportunity to vomit my seminary education. I do not know the relationship between Buddhism and dharmas. They appear to be mixing their religious philosophy again.

On a different note, the notion that the flash sideways could actually be an alt-flash forward would fit in with what I've been told -- that the flashes in any direction are gong by mid-season and then everything centers squarely on the island.
 

chickenhead

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Anyone think Dogen's actually dead? He was drowned the same way Sayid was. The other guy's a goner, though. Sayid slit his throat.

I never think anyone's actually dead. Everyone's just dead for now, until the show's over. And then only until the movie.

But you're right, we just saw someone else come back from a drowning. Of course, Sayid was already dying and this was intended to save him. Dogen was not, in case it makes a difference. Also begs the question: when John Lennon asked Sayid if he realized what he'd done, did he simply mean that Dogen was dead? Or was he specifically referring to Dogen drowned in the pool, and what that might mean?
 

Gaddabout

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Thanks for the links to those articles. Awesome.
 

TBaslim

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No problem. I realized no one in these threads had mentioned Doc Jensen at EW...wanted to make sure folks knew about his stuff. I started reading it back in Season 4. He definitely explores all options and more, but it's just fun stuff to read. Expands the experience of watching the show and makes you think. Best regular online commentator on Lost that I've read.
 

Gaddabout

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Gaddabout

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man, that's a BIG one to swallow.

He hasn't been part of the narrative. For all intents and purposes, his story has been resolved since we saw he was safe and living with his grandmother. Michael's dead. I think maybe the biggest reason is Harold Perrineau played the race card, so the story line was probably adjusted to just write it out. Also, the kid who plays Walt has aged a LOT that it would be very challenging to explain in this time line.

So I don't blame them. It doesn't leave a loophole. It just leaves a big question about what the heck Walt was. Then again, Miles has special abilities and so does Hurley, so Walt isn't as unique as we were led to believe in Season 1. Walt is just extra-special.
 

Chaplin

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He hasn't been part of the narrative. For all intents and purposes, his story has been resolved since we saw he was safe and living with his grandmother. Michael's dead. I think maybe the biggest reason is Harold Perrineau played the race card, so the story line was probably adjusted to just write it out. Also, the kid who plays Walt has aged a LOT that it would be very challenging to explain in this time line.

So I don't blame them. It doesn't leave a loophole. It just leaves a big question about what the heck Walt was. Then again, Miles has special abilities and so does Hurley, so Walt isn't as unique as we were led to believe in Season 1. Walt is just extra-special.

FYI, Harold Perrineau will be on the show this season. Probably in an alt-flash-forward.

Personally I don't care much about Walt. Intriguing, sure, but the character was a bit boring, not even he knew what exactly he was. In fact, he might have been the most ignorant of his own abilities.
 

chickenhead

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I agree, Walt was not adequately developed. Although it's interesting because he wasn't given the chance within the show, os it sort of makes its own sense. He and Locke were the two survivors who initially liked the island and were in touch with it. But Walt was just a kid. Sort of like Ben in the sense that he didn't understand it, and as Richard once said to Ben, he'd probably have to be patient. But in the end he didn't really get that chance, because the people who might have helped him develop were Locke (which ended when Walt was leaving the island on the raft and then was kidnapped) or someone like Richrad (which ended when Michael got Walt back as a pawn in a greater political game).

There would definitely be an opportunity for Walt to return this season, but it would be tough in the alternate storyline because his age would be so clearly different than from the priginal flight.
 
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