Lost - The Final Season (Spoilers)

[chickenhead]

Personally, I try to watch this show in terms of the plot and avoid making links to greater philosophical themes. One, I don't think it's as deep as a lot of fans are trying to make it (which is absolutely not a criticism of the show itself), and also because the possible philosophical/mythological influences are very disparate. So things "seem" to be following one model for a while, until they're not. And taken too far it starts to look like the show (or maybe just fans) is grabbing from everywhere. Or it's getting a little Foucault's Pendulum for those who have read it.

The thing is, it's a work of fiction, so by definition it is its own universe. There are rules and agents within the show, and they are the only things that matter, regardless of what the influences might be. It's the writers' responsibility not to break their own rules. Difficult to do, which is why so many fear a similar ending to X Files, BSG, etc.

 

[HoodieBets]

P.S.: Glad the writers haven't forgotten about Adam and Eve.

Adam and Eve were mentioned in passing with hurley making an assumption while they did bring it back there is still no answer, i hope they dont just leave it to assume hurley is correct

 

[Gaddabout]

Adam and Eve were mentioned in passing with hurley making an assumption while they did bring it back there is still no answer, i hope they dont just leave it to assume hurley is correct

Hurley is the voice of the fans. He's constantly verbalizing the frustrations of the fans. This was just one more acknowledgment that the writers are paying attention and, I think, trying to instill hope they aren't going to leave people hanging.

 

[Gaddabout]

Personally, I try to watch this show in terms of the plot and avoid making links to greater philosophical themes. One, I don't think it's as deep as a lot of fans are trying to make it (which is absolutely not a criticism of the show itself), and also because the possible philosophical/mythological influences are very disparate. So things "seem" to be following one model for a while, until they're not. And taken too far it starts to look like the show (or maybe just fans) is grabbing from everywhere. Or it's getting a little Foucault's Pendulum for those who have read it.

The thing is, it's a work of fiction, so by definition it is its own universe. There are rules and agents within the show, and they are the only things that matter, regardless of what the influences might be. It's the writers' responsibility not to break their own rules. Difficult to do, which is why so many fear a similar ending to X Files, BSG, etc.

I would not be so interested in the show if they writers hadn't decided to run with meaningful themes. I'm not trying to break the code. I'm just expressing my joy someone in television decided to make a TV show as compelling as good literature or a play. I hope this kind of writing becomes a network staple.

There's room for "just entertainment," but ultimately I believe what we choose to entertain ourselves with begins to impact our values. I would rather a show like Lost, which has stolen from the very best of literature and ideas from the previous 5,000 years of man's history, define us than the next reality phenomenon. I'd like to believe discussing the show's deeper themes reinforces what makes Lost unique and different (and special).

If the mythology fails to deliver something of lasting value, the show has failed. If Lost is nothing more than a weekly hour-long diversion, if it doesn't run with what has made it so strong, it's been a waste of time and money.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Liked tonight's episode, but there were A LOT more questions than answers in this one.

The worry for me is that they are introducing so much new stuff that it's going to seem forced when they finally tie everything up.

I wondered about the same thing until talking to a writer I have great respect for (who used to work on the show) who simply told me: what makes you think they're actually going to tie everything up?

 

[Chaplin]

I wondered about the same thing until talking to a writer I have great respect for (who used to work on the show) who simply told me: what makes you think they're actually going to tie everything up?

Well, they are obviously not going to tie everything up, but there will be some sort of attempt at a definite ending.

 

[jefftheshark]

Care to elaborate the definition of secular Calvinism, in the context of Lost?

(Bonus points if you do, as that will raise this forum(s) level )

Oh, this would certainly not be the first discussion of Brother John Calvin on these forums.

As I recall, several years ago we discussed the application of Calvinistic doctrine to the consumption of alcoholic beverages during the daytime. In that particular debate, Gadd took me to task for my negative posit when he stated that I was misinterpreting the application of rigid moralistic Calvinism by inferring that God had perhaps not just "willed" said consumption.

So I feel that I was able to both simultaneously raise and lower the level of discourse on this particular subject, which is, of course, my raison d'etre for being on this site in the first place.

Just doin' my part and keeping it real.



JTS

Oh, and btw, at least to me the whole "Jack's son" thing reeked of Fonzie behind a boat.

 

[Gaddabout]

Well, they are obviously not going to tie everything up, but there will be some sort of attempt at a definite ending.

It will. Assured. This from Matthew Fox:

Fox says Lost creators Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse will prove they knew where they were going all along when the show ends in “an incredibly powerful, very sad and beautiful way. I think it is going to be pretty awesome.”

The only castmember to know what that crazy smoke monster is and how the show ends said, “I think it is going to be very satisfying and cathartic and redemptive and beautiful. I’ve talked to Damon pretty extensively and every time I talk to him it’s sort of surprising how moving it is just to talk about it.”

Also, I need to put this in a spoiler because it could potentially ruin it if someone is wanting to remain pure and not know anything ...

Spoiler

Either next week or the week after, the story is going to go linear and there won't be anymore flashes -- backwards, forwards, sideways, or otherwise. I don't know how it converges, only that from the midpoint on, it's a singular race to the finish.

 

[Russ Smith]

I'm still trying to figure out if we're sure Jacob is the good guy and MIB is the bad guy? One of the running themes in this show is that the good guys and the bad guys aren't always who you think and that there's a fine line between good and bad.

You can argue that if that was Jacob's list of candidates that he's the bad guy bringing all these people to the island for some selfish purpose?

I also wonder if the guy trying to find the island isn't just Charles Widmore again and not someone we haven't met yet?

Side question, how did Jin know where Aaron was? He wasn't on the helicopter he was on the boat that exploded so he didn't see Aaron leave. Most of the time since he's been separated from Kate and the Oceanic 6. IIRC the only chance he really had to find that out was when they were in the temple together. So if Kate told him in the temple or when they left the temple wouldn't she have also told him that she left Aaron with his grandmother? If so, why wouldn't Jin just tell Claire, they don't have Aaron, he's off the island, he's safe with your grandmother? Unless he just thinks she's so far gone the only answer she can accept is they have Aaron I'll help you get him back?

 

[DWKB]

I'm still trying to figure out if we're sure Jacob is the good guy and MIB is the bad guy? One of the running themes in this show is that the good guys and the bad guys aren't always who you think and that there's a fine line between good and bad.

You can argue that if that was Jacob's list of candidates that he's the bad guy bringing all these people to the island for some selfish purpose?

You're right, we don't.

I also wonder if the guy trying to find the island isn't just Charles Widmore again and not someone we haven't met yet?

The name under number 108 (where Jacob told Hugo to move the dial) was WALLACE and was scratched out. Seems unlikely to be Widmore.

Side question, how did Jin know where Aaron was? He wasn't on the helicopter he was on the boat that exploded so he didn't see Aaron leave. Most of the time since he's been separated from Kate and the Oceanic 6. IIRC the only chance he really had to find that out was when they were in the temple together. So if Kate told him in the temple or when they left the temple wouldn't she have also told him that she left Aaron with his grandmother? If so, why wouldn't Jin just tell Claire, they don't have Aaron, he's off the island, he's safe with your grandmother? Unless he just thinks she's so far gone the only answer she can accept is they have Aaron I'll help you get him back?

I don't think there is the plot hole you think you see, here.

 

[Gaddabout]

Side question, how did Jin know where Aaron was? He wasn't on the helicopter he was on the boat that exploded so he didn't see Aaron leave. Most of the time since he's been separated from Kate and the Oceanic 6. IIRC the only chance he really had to find that out was when they were in the temple together. So if Kate told him in the temple or when they left the temple wouldn't she have also told him that she left Aaron with his grandmother? If so, why wouldn't Jin just tell Claire, they don't have Aaron, he's off the island, he's safe with your grandmother? Unless he just thinks she's so far gone the only answer she can accept is they have Aaron I'll help you get him back?

I felt challenged by that and I feel pretty confident in my recollection of the string of events.

Jin was on the boat when it blew up while Kate was in the helicopter with Aaron waiting on him. I conceded Jin probably knew Aaron was with Kate because Kate took charge of Aaron right before they were all getting ready to leave and Jin went to the boat. That's when they were packing up.

Jin WOULDN'T know Aaron was with his grandmother now because he wasn't there, wasn't even part of that timeline, and Kate and Jack would be the only people who know who Aaron was left with.

 

[Russ Smith]

I felt challenged by that and I feel pretty confident in my recollection of the string of events.

Jin was on the boat when it blew up while Kate was in the helicopter with Aaron waiting on him. I conceded Jin probably knew Aaron was with Kate because Kate took charge of Aaron right before they were all getting ready to leave and Jin went to the boat. That's when they were packing up.

Jin WOULDN'T know Aaron was with his grandmother now because he wasn't there, wasn't even part of that timeline, and Kate and Jack would be the only people who know who Aaron was left with.

Right I'm just trying to figure out would Jin have known at all about Aaron or like you said just assumed Kate took Aaron with her. Been so long since that all happened I don't honestly know but Jin has been separated from Kate for quite awhile so it occurred to me does he really know that?

Kate could have told him at the temple but then he'd know about the grandmother so that had me wondering if I just don't recall well enough to explain how Jin knew.

 

[DWKB]

Kate, along with Jack and Hugo, ended up in 1977 Dharmaville with Jin, Sawyer, and Juliet for around half of last season. I don't think it's a stretch to think Jin knows that Kate took Aaron and left him in the real world.

 

[Chaplin]

Kate, along with Jack and Hugo, ended up in 1977 Dharmaville with Jin, Sawyer, and Juliet for around half of last season. I don't think it's a stretch to think Jin knows that Kate took Aaron and left him in the real world.

Exactly. Jin probably found out in 1977. And it's obvious, his truth is a lie when he said Aaron was at the Temple. It's to lure Claire (and maybe Flocke) to meet up with Jack, Hurley, Sayid, Miles, etc...

 

[Gaddabout]

Just going back through this thread and realizing I'll never be able to make fun of comic book geeks ever again. I've far exceeded their perceived pointless emotional involvement in fictional characters.

 

[Chaplin]

It is a crime that the writers have given Sun NOTHING in the past season and a half. She hasn't done anything halfway interesting since she pulled a gun on Ben in Marina Del Ray.

 

[Shane]

It is a crime that the writers have given Sun NOTHING in the past season and a half. She hasn't done anything halfway interesting since she pulled a gun on Ben in Marina Del Ray.

Not really. The show is chugging along just fine without her.

 

[Gaddabout]

Not really. The show is chugging along just fine without her.

Speak for yourself. I want to see Sun in her skivvies again.

 

[Chaplin]

Not really. The show is chugging along just fine without her.

Hmm, I don't recall saying the show is suffering because of it. Thanks for putting words into my mouth.

 

[chickenhead]

I would not be so interested in the show if they writers hadn't decided to run with meaningful themes. I'm not trying to break the code. I'm just expressing my joy someone in television decided to make a TV show as compelling as good literature or a play. I hope this kind of writing becomes a network staple.

There's room for "just entertainment," but ultimately I believe what we choose to entertain ourselves with begins to impact our values. I would rather a show like Lost, which has stolen from the very best of literature and ideas from the previous 5,000 years of man's history, define us than the next reality phenomenon. I'd like to believe discussing the show's deeper themes reinforces what makes Lost unique and different (and special).

If the mythology fails to deliver something of lasting value, the show has failed. If Lost is nothing more than a weekly hour-long diversion, if it doesn't run with what has made it so strong, it's been a waste of time and money.

Oh, I don't mean to imply that the themes and influences don't matter. Just that the "aha" moments of identifying possible source material are very deceptive. In the way that coincidence doesn't equal meaning (but many authors try to use it as such), playing hide and seek with allusions is very tempting (for both creator and viewer) but can be a red herring. Of course, we're talking about a show famous for its brilliantly placed red herrings . Just saying I hope they really know what they're doing and in the end the pieces will fit together. Based on the posting above about the ending, it sounds like they just might.

 

[TBaslim]

I would not be so interested in the show if they writers hadn't decided to run with meaningful themes. I'm not trying to break the code. I'm just expressing my joy someone in television decided to make a TV show as compelling as good literature or a play. I hope this kind of writing becomes a network staple.

There's room for "just entertainment," but ultimately I believe what we choose to entertain ourselves with begins to impact our values. I would rather a show like Lost, which has stolen from the very best of literature and ideas from the previous 5,000 years of man's history, define us than the next reality phenomenon. I'd like to believe discussing the show's deeper themes reinforces what makes Lost unique and different (and special).

If the mythology fails to deliver something of lasting value, the show has failed. If Lost is nothing more than a weekly hour-long diversion, if it doesn't run with what has made it so strong, it's been a waste of time and money.

Same reasons I enjoy the show so much...very well stated.

 

[TBaslim]

Oh, this would certainly not be the first discussion of Brother John Calvin on these forums.

As I recall, several years ago we discussed the application of Calvinistic doctrine to the consumption of alcoholic beverages during the daytime. In that particular debate, Gadd took me to task for my negative posit when he stated that I was misinterpreting the application of rigid moralistic Calvinism by inferring that God had perhaps not just "willed" said consumption.

So I feel that I was able to both simultaneously raise and lower the level of discourse on this particular subject, which is, of course, my raison d'etre for being on this site in the first place.

Just doin' my part and keeping it real.



JTS

Oh, and btw, at least to me the whole "Jack's son" thing reeked of Fonzie behind a boat.

Nice. I'm just impressed a sports message board has discussions of Calvinist anything going on. It beats ESPN-whatever everyday and twice on Sundays.

Yer a fine bunch of folks to shoot the breeze about stuff with.

 

[jefftheshark]

Nice. I'm just impressed a sports message board has discussions of Calvinist anything going on. It beats ESPN-whatever everyday and twice on Sundays.

Yer a fine bunch of folks to shoot the breeze about stuff with.

I figure that anyone who uses a "Citizen of the Galaxy" reference as their member name would appreciate a little philosophical meandering.

(although, I would have selected "RBaslim" myself, but that's just me. )

JTS

 

[Gaddabout]

As I recall, several years ago we discussed the application of Calvinistic doctrine to the consumption of alcoholic beverages during the daytime. In that particular debate, Gadd took me to task for my negative posit when he stated that I was misinterpreting the application of rigid moralistic Calvinism by inferring that God had perhaps not just "willed" said consumption.

The Puppet Problem -- if God's will is irresistible and imposed throughout all timelines, does that make men puppets of God? What's the point of faith if we have no will to express it on our own?

I suggest the writers have been mulling this problem with Locke this whole time.

 

[jefftheshark]

The Puppet Problem -- if God's will is irresistible and imposed throughout all timelines, does that make men puppets of God? What's the point of faith if we have no will to express it on our own?

I suggest the writers have been mulling this problem with Locke this whole time.

So isn't that the point of Satan, to try and sever the strings and overcome this irresistable will?

This would basically make the show a re-make of MacLeish's J.B. (nttawwt, btw)

JTS