Lost - The Final Season (Spoilers)

Russ Smith

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Dont think I said it does.

My "insight" is obvious. Read almost any news article, blog etc etc. Not many people were happy and many consider it a massive waste of their time.

That's a bit selective though. I've looked at a bunch today and there's a pretty big split, it's not at all clear from what I've read that "not many" were happy. There are certainly people who are annoyed, but then it's also striking how many of those people are mad because "they were dead the whole time" which I think is simply failing to pay attention and then making an incorrect conclusion and blasting the writers because you didn't understand the ending.

I was reading losttheories and over and over the people who felt let down most seemed to think they were dead the whole time. There are some people who didn't come to that conclusion and were still disappointed but I'd say there's a pretty wide distribution of opinions on the ending, there's no consensus.
 

Chaplin

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Hey Chap watched every episode of the Wire. I think I recall when we discussed Rome that you said the Wire was right up there with it. It was great! And I was lucky I could watch them back to back and not wait a week in between lol.

Now I am onto OZ season 3.,

Yeah the Wire is a great series. Never seen Oz.
 

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My "insight" is obvious. Read almost any news article, blog etc etc. Not many people were happy and many consider it a massive waste of their time.

Yet people here are sharing how they received catharsis from the show, which is really the only thing that matters in this thread. Doesn't matter one bit what anyone else thought. They're not here in this discussion.

I get the impression you're here to laugh at us. No?
 

thirty-two

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After watching it again and reading some other boards, I've come to the conclusion that not only did I like it, I LOVED it, despite my initial reaction of "WHAT?". I was thrown by the purgatory aspect because all along I thought it was a sideways world created when Juliet detonated the jughead. And I mentioned a few questions I had about it in the earlier posts. But at it's whole, this episode was extremely emotionally satisfying. I think I cried more on my 2nd showing than I did the first.

I can see how some people might hate it though, particularly for the questions it does not answer (what is the island, waaaaalt, the others, dharma, why children cant be born on the island, etc) as well as the ambiguity it leaves behind. But at it's whole and keeping the characters in perspective, I freaking loved it. Edited: Except for no Kate/Sawyer acknowledgment :)

Now it's time to watch them all from the beginning :)
 
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Mike Olbinski

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Dont think I said it does.

My "insight" is obvious. Read almost any news article, blog etc etc. Not many people were happy and many consider it a massive waste of their time.

Not many...I haven't seen that at all, most people I know all loved it.

A waste of time huh? Most stories are about people and characters...we got to see their stories, their redemption and how they all end up together at the end.

If you think that is a waste of time, then most stories you read are a waste of time...because most of the time they are about people, characters and their stories.
 

green machine

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I can see how some people might hate it though, particularly for the questions it does not answer (what is the island, waaaaalt, the others, darma, why children cant be born on the island

If I had to guess I'd say it's because, as we've seen, children are used against the candidates by the MIB in one way or another. So, Jacob made the no children thing so that the candidates couldn't be used against him.
 

Mike Olbinski

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Yet people here are sharing how they received catharsis from the show, which is really the only thing that matters in this thread. Doesn't matter one bit what anyone else thought. They're not here in this discussion.

I get the impression you're here to laugh at us. No?

Well, he IS better than us huh? We are all the fools, the writers didn't care a lick about the fans, they are laughing at all of us from their ivory towers and thinking we are all lemmings following a silly, content-less story off a cliff.

I've seen all the interviews and discussions with the writers...I could always tell behind their apparently honesty and care for the story and the series, they really were just pure evil and really lousy storytellers.

:biglaugh:
 

Gaddabout

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Well, he IS better than us huh? We are all the fools, the writers didn't care a lick about the fans, they are laughing at all of us from their ivory towers and thinking we are all lemmings following a silly, content-less story off a cliff.

I've seen all the interviews and discussions with the writers...I could always tell behind their apparently honesty and care for the story and the series, they really were just pure evil and really lousy storytellers.

:biglaugh:

I have no problem with someone hating the show, the ending, whatever. I posted in the Heroes thread with a similar sentiment, but I added why I was frustrated with detailed reasons why I think the writers blew a perfectly good concept. But I didn't show up to laugh at anyone who liked it. If they found catharsis, good for them. That's what the art is about.
 

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question... wasn't Charlie the FIRST person to realize he had another life and didn't he talk about Claire back in that episode when Desmond was sent to coral him? If so, why the heck did he have the "moment" again in this episode?

i thought the finale was decent televsion but it felt REALLY manipulative... more like a 15 year reunion show with "look, now these two characters are back... AND THEY'RE TOGETHER!" cue applause and tears!

there were some solid moments and then there were some groaner for me, much like the entire season IMO.
 

D-Dogg

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question... wasn't Charlie the FIRST person to realize he had another life and didn't he talk about Claire back in that episode when Desmond was sent to coral him? If so, why the heck did he have the "moment" again in this episode?

Thought about that as well. Charlie didn't have a breakthrough moment though. He remembered something, but not Claire and the island and their time together. He just realized that there was something bigger than him at play, and that he knew love when he was seeing her. He didn't have the full awakening. Jack had a flash with Locke as well, but not his awakening. So did Desmond when he saw the "not Penny's boat" on Charlie when rescuing him...but not the full awakening then.

That was the first thing I thought of though too...after feeling happy for Claire and Charlie.
 

Gaddabout

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there were some solid moments and then there were some groaner for me, much like the entire season IMO.

I can agree with that. I suppose I'm sympathetic to the writers because that was an almost impossible clean up job. I think they went in adding some storylines for characters having too much confidence they could write themselves out. They just waited too long to clean it up.
 

Covert Rain

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question... wasn't Charlie the FIRST person to realize he had another life and didn't he talk about Claire back in that episode when Desmond was sent to coral him? If so, why the heck did he have the "moment" again in this episode?

i thought the finale was decent televsion but it felt REALLY manipulative... more like a 15 year reunion show with "look, now these two characters are back... AND THEY'RE TOGETHER!" cue applause and tears!

there were some solid moments and then there were some groaner for me, much like the entire season IMO.

I think it depends on what sparked the memories. Remember that Juliette took a couple touches from Sawyer before she remembered everything. So, even though Charlie began to remember it wasn't all until Claire came into the picture.
 

DeAnna

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I would say the opposite would be easier.....that is just me. No history there and fresh start with your own son.

Ok that makes more sense to me now. I couldn't figure out why they said to him "you have no son."
 

Griffin

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I liked the finale. I liked that it left a lot to think about. It definitely left several interpretations, but I prefer that instead of the writers telling you exactly what was happening.

I too was confused about the final shot of the plane wreckage (among other things) but it seems the general consensus is that it had nothing to do with the storyline.
 

Chaplin

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I liked the finale. I liked that it left a lot to think about. It definitely left several interpretations, but I prefer that instead of the writers telling you exactly what was happening.

I too was confused about the final shot of the plane wreckage (among other things) but it seems the general consensus is that it had nothing to do with the storyline.

Apparently the final shots of the wreckage were a joke to make the fans go nuts with theories.
 

chickenhead

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I didn't hate it, but that's because I was prepared for it by the entirety of this season. I'm fine with people liking it because they achieved catharsis, and I'm not laughing at anyone for that. By the same token, that catharsis doesn't explain everything away for me. Here's what happened to conclude this series: a mysterious golden light is protected, and the reward for doing so is reunification in the afterlife. The electromagnetic qualities of the light are never really explained, and the afterlife is explained by a ghost. So basically a series whose setup was absolutely incredible in the first couple seasons ends with both a McGuffin and a deus ex machina. And another cliche: the latter (Christian Shephard) quite literally tells instead of shows.

I don't think the end of this show compares at all emotionally and narratively with a scene like Sawyer/Jim/Michael/Walt's departure on the raft in season 1. For me, that was catharsis--this wasn't nearly as powerful for me.

I'd nitpick about the flash-sideways, why they had collective amnesia, why they were neatly paired off, etc. How they "made" it, etc. But there's no point because anything goes once it's revealed for what it is. Mainly I just think the idea that these characters have achieved salvation from problems in their other life is not really supported as a narrative IMO--it's more something the sympathetic viewer has to bring to it. What I had been *hoping* for was that the flash-sideways would be congruent with the real plot. Like somehow Locke's salvation in the flash-sideways would play a part in saving the island and the survivors. Or it would reflect Juliet's statement that "it worked" in the sense that it presented another opportunity for them to affect the endgame on the island. My major problem, though, was that it goes totally against the idea that they killed off Jin and Sun to prove that they meant business.
 
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Gaddabout

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Some insider answers

This was posted on a Lost message board by, I believe, an assistant to Cuse and Lindelof. Enjoy ...

Good stuff on here! I can finally throw in my two cents! I've had to bite my tongue for far too long. Also, hopefully I can answer some of John's questions about Dharma and the "pointless breadcrumbs" that really, weren't so pointless ...

First ...
The Island:

It was real. Everything that happened on the island that we saw throughout the 6 seasons was real. Forget the final image of the plane crash, it was put in purposely to f*&k with people's heads and show how far the show had come. They really crashed. They really survived. They really discovered Dharma and the Others. The Island keeps the balance of good and evil in the world. It always has and always will perform that role. And the Island will always need a "Protector". Jacob wasn't the first, Hurley won't be the last. However, Jacob had to deal with a malevolent force (MIB) that his mother, nor Hurley had to deal with. He created the devil and had to find a way to kill him -- even though the rules prevented him from actually doing so.

Thus began Jacob's plan to bring candidates to the Island to do the one thing he couldn't do. Kill the MIB. He had a huge list of candidates that spanned generations. Yet everytime he brought people there, the MIB corrupted them and caused them to kill one another. That was until Richard came along and helped Jacob understand that if he didn't take a more active role, then his plan would never work.

Enter Dharma -- which I'm not sure why John is having such a hard time grasping. Dharma, like the countless scores of people that were brought to the island before, were brought there by Jacob as part of his plan to kill the MIB. However, the MIB was aware of this plan and interferred by "corrupting" Ben. Making Ben believe he was doing the work of Jacob when in reality he was doing the work of the MIB. This carried over into all of Ben's "off-island" activities. He was the leader. He spoke for Jacob as far as they were concerned. So the "Others" killed Dharma and later were actively trying to kill Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Hurley and all the candidates because that's what the MIB wanted. And what he couldn't do for himself.

Dharma was originally brought in to be good. But was turned bad by MIB's corruption and eventually destroyed by his pawn Ben. Now, was Dharma only brought there to help Jack and the other Canditates on their overall quest to kill Smokey? Or did Jacob have another list of Canidates from the Dharma group that we were never aware of? That's a question that is purposley not answered because whatever answer the writers came up with would be worse than the one you come up with for yourself. Still ... Dharma's purpose is not "pointless" or even vague. Hell, it's pretty blantent.

Still, despite his grand plan, Jacob wanted to give his "candidates" (our Lostaways) the one thing he, nor his brother, were ever afforded: free will. Hence him bringing a host of "candidates" through the decades and letting them "choose" which one would actually do the job in the end. Maybe he knew Jack would be the one to kill Flocke and that Hurley would be the protector in the end. Maybe he didn't. But that was always the key question of the show: Fate vs Free-will. Science vs Faith. Personally I think Jacob knew from the beginning what was going to happen and that everyone played a part over 6 seasons in helping Jack get to the point where he needed to be to kill Smokey and make Hurley the protector -- I know that's how a lot of the writers viewed it. But again, they won't answer that (nor should they) because that ruins the fun.

In the end, Jack got to do what he always wanted to do from the very first episode of the show: Save his fellow Lostaways. He got Kate and Sawyer off the island and he gave Hurley the purpose in life he'd always been missing. And, in Sideways world (which we'll get to next) he in fact saved everyone by helping them all move on ...

Now...

Sideways World:

Sideways world is where it gets really cool in terms of theology and metaphysical discussion (for me at least -- because I love history/religion theories and loved all the talks in the writer's room about it). Basically what the show is proposing is that we're all linked to certain people during our lives. Call them soulmates (though it's not exactly the best word). But these people we're linked to are with us duing "the most important moments of our lives" as Christian said. These are the people we move through the universe with from lifetime to lifetime. It's loosely based in Hinduisim with large doses of western religion thrown into the mix.

The concept that the writers created, basing it off these religious philosophies, was that as a group, the Lostaways subconsciously created this "sideways" world where they exist in purgatory until they are "awakened" and find one another. Once they all find one another, they can then move on and move forward. In essence, this is the show's concept of the afterlife. According to the show, everyone creates their own "Sideways" purgatory with their "soulmates" throughout their lives and exist there until they all move on together. That's a beautiful notion. Even if you aren't religious or even spirtual, the idea that we live AND die together is deeply profound and moving.

It's a really cool and spirtual concept that fits the whole tone and subtext the show has had from the beginning. These people were SUPPOSED to be together on that plane. They were supposed to live through these events -- not JUST because of Jacob. But because that's what the universe or God (depending on how religious you wish to get) wanted to happen. The show was always about science vs faith -- and it ultimately came down on the side of faith. It answered THE core question of the series. The one question that has been at the root of every island mystery, every character backstory, every plot twist. That, by itself, is quite an accomplishment.

How much you want to extrapolate from that is up to you as the viewer. Think about season 1 when we first found the Hatch. Everyone thought that's THE answer! Whatever is down there is the answer! Then, as we discovered it was just one station of many. One link in a very long chain that kept revealing more, and more of a larger mosiac.

But the writer's took it even further this season by contrasting this Sideways "purgatory" with the Island itself. Remember when Michael appeared to Hurley, he said he was not allowed to leave the Island. Just like the MIB. He wasn't allowed into this sideways world and thus, was not afforded the opportunity to move on. Why? Because he had proven himself to be unworthy with his actions on the Island. He failed the test. The others, passed. They made it into Sideways world when they died -- some before Jack, some years later. In Hurley's case, maybe centuries later. They exist in this sideways world until they are "awakened" and they can only move on TOGETHER because they are linked. They are destined to be together for eternity. That was their destiny.

They were NOT linked to Anna Lucia, Daniel, Roussou, Alex, Miles, Lupidis, (and all the rest who weren't in the chuch -- basically everyone who wasn't in season 1). Yet those people exist in Sideways world. Why? Well again, here's where they leave it up to you to decide. The way I like to think about it, is that those people who were left behind in Sideways world have to find their own soulmates before they can wake up. It's possible that those links aren't people from the island but from their other life (Anna's parnter, the guy she shot --- Roussou's husband, etc etc).

A lot of people have been talking about Ben and why he didn't go into the Church. And if you think of Sideways world in this way, then it gives you the answer to that very question. Ben can't move on yet because he hasn't connected with the people he needs to. It's going to be his job to awaken Roussou, Alex, Anna Lucia (maybe), Ethan, Goodspeed, his father and the rest. He has to attone for his sins more than he did by being Hurley's number two. He has to do what Hurley and Desmond did for our Lostaways with his own people. He has to help them connect. And he can only move on when all the links in his chain are ready to. Same can be said for Faraday, Charlotte, Whidmore, Hawkins etc. It's really a neat, and cool concept. At least to me.

But, from a more "behind the scenes" note: the reason Ben's not in the church, and the reason no one is in the church but for Season 1 people is because they wrote the ending to the show after writing the pilot. And never changed it. The writers always said (and many didn't believe them) that they knew their ending from the very first episode. I applaud them for that. It's pretty fantastic. Originally Ben was supposed to have a 3 episode arc and be done. But he became a big part of the show. They could have easily changed their ending and put him in the church -- but instead they problem solved it. Gave him a BRILLIANT moment with Locke outside the church ... and then that was it. I loved that. For those that wonder -- the original ending started the moment Jack walked into the church and touches the casket to Jack closing his eyes as the other plane flies away. That was always JJ's ending. And they kept it.

For me the ending of this show means a lot. Not only because I worked on it, but because as a writer it inspired me in a way the medium had never done before. I've been inspired to write by great films. Maybe too many to count. And there have been amazing TV shows that I've loved (X-Files, 24, Sopranos, countless 1/2 hour shows). But none did what LOST did for me. None showed me that you could take huge risks (writing a show about faith for network TV) and stick to your creative guns and STILL please the audience. I learned a lot from the show as a writer. I learned even more from being around the incredible writers, producers, PAs, interns and everyone else who slaved on the show for 6 years.

In the end, for me, LOST was a touchstone show that dealt with faith, the afterlife, and all these big, spirtual questions that most shows don't touch. And to me, they never once waivered from their core story -- even with all the sci-fi elements they mixed in. To walk that long and daunting of a creative tightrope and survive is simply astounding.
 

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"the reason Ben's not in the church, and the reason no one is in the church but for Season 1 people is because they wrote the ending to the show after writing the pilot. And never changed it."

Funny.. Juliette was in the church... so was Penny. Neither of them were in season 1 if I'm not mistaken.
 

chickenhead

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One major problem with the above:

Personally I think Jacob knew from the beginning what was going to happen and that everyone played a part over 6 seasons in helping Jack get to the point where he needed to be to kill Smokey and make Hurley the protector -- I know that's how a lot of the writers viewed it.

Jack did not kill Smokey. Kate did!

People keep re-telling this wrong in their posts justifying Jack's role. Jack was about to be killed by Smokey when Kate shot him. Some might see this as a small detail, but if it's part of an argument that Jack's purpose was to kill the MiB--it's not.
 

Russ Smith

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Ok that makes more sense to me now. I couldn't figure out why they said to him "you have no son."

It's funny because I have had a situation like that in my own life but I still don't see why they wouldn't just have Jack bring his father back. In my own life in my late teens my dad and I drifted apart, he'd remarried and had a young son, I was at that becoming independent age etc. In my mid 20's my girlfriends son brought my dad and I back together. he wanted to go fishing, I called my dad to get some advice on where to go, next thing you know my dad and I were fishing buddies again and we're essentially best friends now(the GF is now an ex and her son 19 and like a son to me).

But given all that if I was Jack and wanted to fix my broken relationship with my dad, I'd bring my dad back, not invent a son.

It doesn't really matter I watched the finale again yesterday on On Demand and liked it even better the 2nd time around. If there's one thing that still bugs me it's the comments from Desmond that we can go to a place where you can be with the one you love. He said that to Jack but he meant all of them so I'm still puzzled why Sayid ends up with Shannon and not Nadia but I can live with that. Just seems like the only person on the show who didn't end up with their true love is Sayid.
 

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I'd also like to know how a) Ben survived a HUGE tree falling on him and b) after showing three people couldn't get it off of him, they all of a sudden just show up miraculously, with Ben completely okay.

Also, I thought going down the well was a fate worse than death... uh... after Jack plugged the leak, he was down in the well, in the light, same as MIB and... he was fine, miraculously ended up OUT of the well and then died and had a fate much better than death. Why didn't Jack end up the smoke monster at that point? I mean, if Jacob's mom knew that going down there was a fate worse than death, that means she had to have prior experience seeing it happen to someone... so why didn't it happen again?

For a show who's hook was in the mind just as much as the heart, they COMPLETELY punted on anything dealing with the mind. They made up the rules as they went along and then failed to stick by them. That's just lazy and ultimately my biggest criticism of the show. I'm okay with the fantastic... I love the fanastic, but if you're gonna make a fantastic set of rules, you better play by them IMO.
 

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the really interesting thing to me is that while watching it and reflecting back on it, I actually REALLY like the Limbo world and how that portion wrapped up the heart part of the story. It's just that everything ON the island was complete and utter BS the more and more I think about it and it kind of devalues the rest of the show for me.

They just took the easy way out soooooo many times in that finale both big and small. I already listed my big complaints about not following rules the writers set for themselves just three episodes earlier, but the whole MIB, who had been ruthless in killing people before just lets an injured Jack lie there even though he's the one entrusted to kill him... nice and convenient... big tree falls on Ben... it magically disappears... nice and convenient again! there were other moments that just irked me, but it just seemed like when the Writer's wrote themselves into a corner on the island, they either took the easy way out or just ignored the corner.
 

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People keep re-telling this wrong in their posts justifying Jack's role. Jack was about to be killed by Smokey when Kate shot him. Some might see this as a small detail, but if it's part of an argument that Jack's purpose was to kill the MiB--it's not.

Yes and no. Jack devised the plot that led to MiB's death. Jack led Desmond to the place where MiB would become mortal.
 

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But far less convincing than it could have been. Jack was about to die, and it was "perfect timing" for Kate to show up and shoot him when she did. If MiB had finished the job, she still might have shot him. But then there'd be no Jack to go down into the hole to sacrifice himself and replace the stone.
 

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