Lyle Overbay is not helping the team!

[AzKarl]

Originally posted by green machine
You really think the Dbacks want to keep Womack? Where are they going to put him? It just makes sense to try to trade Womack.

adam

Did I say they were trying to keep him? I just get tired of people posting their desires or opinions as facts. I believe Womack's contract expires after this year. If you hold him on the DL until rosters expand you just ride it out. I'm no Womack fan but I'd rather have his experience if we do make the playoffs.

 

[RLakin]

Originally posted by AzKarl
Did I say they were trying to keep him? I just get tired of people posting their desires or opinions as facts. I believe Womack's contract expires after this year. If you hold him on the DL until rosters expand you just ride it out. I'm no Womack fan but I'd rather have his experience if we do make the playoffs.

It's common knowledge that the D-Backs would love to rid themselves of Womack and his .270 OBP. No source necessary. They'd trade him for a bucket of balls if they could.

Chances are he'll be released before any of that happens.

 

[AzKarl]

Originally posted by RLakin
It's common knowledge that the D-Backs would love to rid themselves of Womack and his .270 OBP. No source necessary. They'd trade him for a bucket of balls if they could.

Chances are he'll be released before any of that happens.

Common knowledge they are shopping him? Maybe common, collective wishes of people like you but, I've not seen it rumored or even proposed in any reputable publication.

 

[green machine]

Originally posted by AzKarl
Common knowledge they are shopping him? Maybe common, collective wishes of people like you but, I've not seen it rumored or even proposed in any reputable publication.

It's like when you're writing an essay you don't have to cite a source if it is a generally known fact. This is a case like that.

 

[RLakin]

Originally posted by AzKarl
Common knowledge they are shopping him? Maybe common, collective wishes of people like you but, I've not seen it rumored or even proposed in any reputable publication.

Are you related or something? Seriously, this is the 1st time that I've heard anyone defend Tony Womack. What is it exactly that Tony Womack brings that Kata, Cintron, or Counsell do not? Speed? Take a closer look at his numbers.
Defense? This has never been his strong suit.
Hitting? See Speed.
Veteran Intangibles? We already have one player hanging onto a roster spot for this. And, unlike Womack, he's going to the booth after the season.
Really, I'd love to hear the baseball argument on Tony Womack in regards to the 2003 team.

 

[AzKarl]

Originally posted by RLakin
Are you related or something? Seriously, this is the 1st time that I've heard anyone defend Tony Womack. What is it exactly that Tony Womack brings that Kata, Cintron, or Counsell do not? Speed? Take a closer look at his numbers.
Defense? This has never been his strong suit.
Hitting? See Speed.
Veteran Intangibles? We already have one player hanging onto a roster spot for this. And, unlike Womack, he's going to the booth after the season.
Really, I'd love to hear the baseball argument on Tony Womack in regards to the 2003 team.

As mentioned earlier I am not a fan of Womack and in fact am a large critic. However, Cintron, and Kata have zero major league playoff experience or for that matter zero regular season drive for the playoffs experience as Womack does. As you seem to forget Womack drove in the game and series winning run in the NLCS game against St. Louis to go to the series.

I agree that his activation should not cause any of the contributing kids to be sent down. Realistically no one will assume his salary or give anything for him. Unlike Williams he can still contribute. Activate him when the roster expands and keep the kids. If he won't accept the role dump him. However, Womack has a track record at crunch time that these kids don't have. Look at this objectively.

 

[RLakin]

Originally posted by AzKarl
I agree that his activation should not cause any of the contributing kids to be sent down.

It's almost impossible for this not to happen. Especially w/ Spivey on the verge as well. You can't keep 5 middle infielders on the active roster.

As for the rest of the post, I would suggest that the hits Tony Womack had in 2001 have as much significance in 2003 as Scott Brosius and Tino Martinez's for the Yankees during that same playoffs. The fact of the matter is that the D-Backs (like the 2002 Yankees) need to put the 25 best players on their roster regardless of experience and/or the nostalgia factor. After all, there's only one way young players learn how to win down the stretch drive of a pennant race. That way is to play, not sitting in Tucson while inferior players handle the starts merely because they've celebrated more birthdays.
In my opinion Tony Womack is the 5th best middle infielder and 4th best leadoff hitter (if that) on this team.

Take a look at the OBP totals (in 2003):

Kata: .406
Counsell: .385
McCracken: .283
Womack: .270


Oh, but Womack does have 8 SBs (tied w/ Dellucci for team lead) and 2 clutch hits in 2001’s playoffs. I’d take that any day over Kata’s .406 OBP or Cintron’s 7 HRs and 26 RBIs.

 

[moviegeekjn]

Originally posted by AzKarl
However, Cintron, and Kata have zero major league playoff experience or for that matter zero regular season drive for the playoffs experience as Womack does. As you seem to forget Womack drove in the game and series winning run in the NLCS game against St. Louis to go to the series.

If we follow that "logic,"....

Well, why not bring Matty out of retirement then? He's just sitting around in Phoenix, and surely would come back to help the team for the playoff run... Remember how he got that crucial double to lead off the bottom of the ninth in game five of the Division series...and his 3 run homer in game 2 of the World Series... or have you forgotten him already?

 

[Hired Goon]

Dont give up on Overbay just yet. Like all of the young guys they will take their time to develop.

 

[mark1]

It seems like AZKarl is the only one on the planet that doesn't know that the D-Backs are trying to dump Womack and his 6 mil salary. The problem is, nobody wants him. He is hitting .237 with an OBP of .270. According to the Republic, he is scheduled to come off the DL on Sunday. It will be interesting to see what the Diamondbacks do.

Unless they release him, they have very little choice other than to activate him and send somebody down to Tucson. Womack presents the D-Backs with a big problem. When Jr and Tony are activated, either Kata or Cintron will be the odd man out. My guess is Kata would go down before Cintron, because Cintron can play 3rd, short, and 2nd. If they activate Tony fine, but if they play him at short over Cintron and bat him leadoff, than I have a big problem with it. Even when Tony is having a good year for him, his OBP is still only about .320. That is unacceptable when you have so many other options.

This team has some dead weight. They are going to have to free up some roster spots in the very near future. These 4 guys are expendable in my opinion.

Mike Myers
Tony Womack
Danny Bautista
Mark Grace

Unfortunately, none of those four have any trade value for our one glaring weakness which is rightfield. The Diamondbacks might make the postseason the way they are right now, but if this team could add a consistent hitting rightfielder, I think they would be the odds on favorite to win the World Series.

There is no way I would trade any of the kids to get a rightfielder though. This team has put together an impressive list of young talent, and we should keep everyone of them to build for the future.

 

[AZZenny]

General Manager Joe Garagiola Jr. thinks the Diamondbacks don't have any serious needs, especially since rookies such as Webb, Andrew Good, Robby Hammock, Matt Kata and Jose Valverde have filled in so admirably. He said he has no intention of easing the surplus of talent by packaging the younger players in a deal for a big-name veteran.

"We would all be very reluctant to put any of our kids into a deal, just because we don't feel we have that huge hole that needs to be filled," Garagiola said.

This works for me. The article in the rag also hints that they are shopping Myers hard, but several teams assume he'll get cut before long when we need roster space and are waiting to pick him up that way. I THINK when RJ is activated we will have to bump someone off the 40-man, in fact. Tony is scheduled to come back Sunday, along with Danny and RJ. My guess is they will give Danny one more chance to show he can get it done at the plate. They know what they have with Tony.

If a youngster goes down, it would be Alex or Kata - they overlap so much with CC and Tony and Baerga. I would LIKE Overbay to go to Tucson for a couple weeks and re-discover his swing, but doubt that'll happen.

 

[green machine]

Originally posted by AzKarl
As mentioned earlier I am not a fan of Womack and in fact am a large critic. However, Cintron, and Kata have zero major league playoff experience or for that matter zero regular season drive for the playoffs experience as Womack does. As you seem to forget Womack drove in the game and series winning run in the NLCS game against St. Louis to go to the series.

I agree that his activation should not cause any of the contributing kids to be sent down. Realistically no one will assume his salary or give anything for him. Unlike Williams he can still contribute. Activate him when the roster expands and keep the kids. If he won't accept the role dump him. However, Womack has a track record at crunch time that these kids don't have. Look at this objectively.

We were all hoping Womack would carry his good postseason into 2002 and have a nice year. It didn't happen. Tony is not a good player, never will be. By your logic Brian Anderson should still be here, and Rod Barajas should be our catcher of the future. You can't keep a player hoping he'll do something good while getting rid of a player who is doing something good. Tony is a nice player, and if the rosters expand sure, bring him up. But the rosters won't expand soon enough for him. Goodbye Tony Womack.

adam

 

[FORKTUNG]

Putting The Pieces Together

Womack at this stage in his career is an example of subtraction by addition.

Who else thinks the Danny Bautista experiement is a failure and needs to be done with? 1 HR and a .301 OBP

This team needs to stick with the guys who got them through June.

 

[mark1]

To get back on the subject.

What should this team do with Overbay? He is totally overmatched at the major league level so far. To put it bluntly, he plain stinks right now. I say put Hillenbrand at first full time and bring up Chad Tracy to play third. Tracy is hitting .319 with 7 HR's and 53 RBI's. Most impressively he has walked more than he has struck out, 357 at bats, 31 K's, 33 BB. We have tried everybody else in Tucson, it's time to give Tracy a try. Statistically speaking, Tracy deserved to come up before Hammock, Kata, or Terrero. Overbay is a black hole in our lineup.

On a positive note: Danny Bautista went 2-4 last night in Tucson with a homerun.

 

[AZZenny]

Yes, I agree - but as you, or someone, pointed out, Tracy means another 40-man roster decision as well. Spivey's started hitting down there, too. My Robby meanwhile has gone cold as ice, so when Rod gets through rehab, he'll surely get sent down. However, Rod is going to Lancaster, not Tucson, so I guess in this experiment we get to see whether it is time in Tucson, or mere absence of Murph, that improves a guy's batting.

 

[Stan C]

Please, I'm not being cynical but I can't understand the above post. And I'd like to as you have a much better handle on the minor league system than I.
Do you mean that Hammock will be sent to Lancaster, if so, Why do you think so? Or was Barajas?
And last, you think our hitting coach at the major leagues is hampering the young guys development, and not just other teams getting better and better scouting reports? I'd be curious to hear your reasoning if that's the case.
Thanks for the reply.

 

[AZZenny]

Sorry to confuse you.
1. Hammock is batting well under .200 for the past 3 weeks. If they need to send someone down when Barajas is ready to come back up, it is likely to be Hammock, at this point, despite his versatility. Mind you, I am one of his biggest boosters, but we know there WILL have to be cuts as guys come back. Terrero will go for Bautista, Robby will go for Rod, but who, Oh who, will make room for Spivey, is the biggest question.

2. I assume Hammock will go to Tucson, which is where he has been established this year, and some other junior catcher there gets bumped to El Paso, etc etc.

3. I have an ongoing "natural experiment" regarding the often- observed tendency for guys who were slumping or not getting it going up here to go to Tucson for some type of rehab (usually an unrelated injury) and come back and hit great for about 2-3 weeks before slowing down again. Been a frequent observation for the past few years.

4. Given my known 'thing' about Murph (see #5 )- in which I am not totally alone- someone on another board questioned whether it is the positive effect of Tucson or the absence of Murphy - so since Rod is going to Lancaster (because it is closer to home than the Triple-AAA road trip,) here is one of the first opportunities to test that question. After his previous rehab in Tucson this year he hit an avg .433 with 9 rbi for 2 weeks before dropping off again. However, since this time he had a bad wrist which affected his swing for a few weeks, it won't be a clean experiment, obviously.

5. It would take too long to go through all the comments made by players and others over the past 3 years, and various observations, that have made me believe Murph is an inadequate or unhelpful hitting coach. There is a stack of anecdotal stuff, but that's all it is. Besides, most people here know I'm totally irrationally biased about this one. However, I think he was a very good outfield defensive coach, when we had such things, and I am sure he is a very sweet guy.

 

[WizardOfAz]

Originally posted by AzKarl
Common knowledge they are shopping him? Maybe common, collective wishes of people like you but, I've not seen it rumored or even proposed in any reputable publication.

Yikes.....

 

[unc84steve]

Why does there always have to be a scape-goat chosen?

Now I'm going to defend Lyle Overbay and people are going to complain I'm relying on stats. But look what started this nonsense:

Originally posted by BC867
I like Lyle Overbay. He's a good guy, a solid .280's hitter, and he's turned into a great fielding 1B in a short time.

But a 1B with only 24 RBI's with the season more than half over . . . demoted to 8th in the batting order . . . is not helping his team.

Last night against the Giants, Lyle came up four times with runners in scoring position -- twice with a runner on 2B; twice with runners on Second and Third. He drove in . . . . . . . . . . zero!
.....

If the D'backs want to keep Mark Grace on the roster, Overbay has to be sent down. There's not room for two LH hitting 1B -- one an aging veteran hitting in the low .200's and the other who can't drive in runs.

It comes down to numbers and, in the case of Kata, Cintron, or Counsell vs. Overbay, who is best for the team right now! Unfortunately, it's not Overbay!

Numbers, numbers, numbers.

But the most important number in baseball today is on-base percentage. Lyle Overbay is at .359. That's not the greatest, but better than: Dellucci, Spivey, Hammock, Grace & Hillenbrand's overall 2003 on-base pct.

To irrationally start picking on a rookie and finding every time he fails in the "clutch" is very easy in baseball because everyone this side of Barry Bonds fails over 50% of the time. It'll be much easier to see all the runners Hillenbrand leaves on base because of Hillenbrand's lower OBP.

 

[AZZenny]

Steve, I was going to defend him on that basis, too, but since he's been hitting 8th a lot, he's also gotten several intentional walks; by my calcs that puts his otherwise-OBP at around .338.

 

[BC867]

Originally posted by unc84steve
But look what started this nonsense: Numbers, numbers, numbers.

C'mon, Steve. Don't sink to calling a different opinion "nonsense"! There have been many pro and con responses to this thread.

But the most important number in baseball today is on-base percentage.

'Gotta disagree with that! 2 Runs - 4 Hits (with no Walks) beats 1 Run - 8 Hits (with 4 Walks) every time.

At a corner position, we need more from Lyle than 4 RBI's in over a month.

And with him taking alot of called 3rd strikes, he needs to be in the lineup every day. It's not going to happen with the D'backs.

And, yes, I am one of those people who believe that Dwayne Murphy is not qualified to solve batting problems on a team competing for the World Series.

 

[DWKB]

Originally posted by AZZenny
Steve, I was going to defend him on that basis, too, but since he's been hitting 8th a lot, he's also gotten several intentional walks; by my calcs that puts his otherwise-OBP at around .338.

Well I went back through the game log for thoroughness.

Overbay has been IBB'd 2 times in the 8th spot (I don't know if we can call that several Zenny and 3 times in the 6th spot (to get to Moeller, Spivey, and Finley).

Subtracting those 2 IBBs lowers his OBP down to .357 from his current .361

IOW, I don't think his OBP is a mirage of his batting order position at all.

 

[AZZenny]

I will totally defer to anyone else's math - I've got NO ego invested there! (That did seem awfully ambitious for me so early in the AM - LOL. I knew he had 5 IBB, but obviously my calculator jammed! tsk.)
For myself, I love how Lyle has developed his defensive skills - he is REALLY good, which wasn't expected. However, he is not performing at the offense level expected of him, or needed from him; as with any other rookie - highly touted or not - indeed, with most players - he needs to get it done, or step aside for someone who can, until he can win back the spot. Letting him struggle at the plate indefinitely can't be really good for his head, either.

 

[unc84steve]

Here's what bugs me in a situation like this (and this is why I call it "nonsense"). Things start with a "rational" argument that a player is a disappointment based on stats. Then others are entitled to "rational" counter-arguments with their stats ("numbers numbers numbers")

So far, so good.

But then things subtly turn into intangible & then I'd contend emotional issues: (character, clutch ability, what we expect from a corner infielder, what we expect from a rookie, etc.) This further devolves when we start assigning blame or credit for such issues that don't seem so obvious to me in the first place.

The way they become "common knowledge" among fans & the media is sheer repetition: (Lyle Overbay is a disappointing rookie, Matt Williams is an $10 million waste, Byung-Hyun Kim's heart isn't into closing & helping the club, Erubiel Durazo sulks & strikes out too much).

All of the above are legitimate propositions (that I emotionally disagree with BTW). However, if a scapegoat needs to be picked, why trash a rookie who has spent about 16 years in the minor leagues already?

Why are we expecting power production from Overbay when we tossed away Durazo & Greg Colbrunn?

Why do so many pick on Overbay's RBI production but love/tolerate Mark Grace who never reached 100 RBI despite years at Wrigley during the 1990's?

Why do people act surprised if Lyle was touted as Mark Grace the sequel?

Is it because he looks so much like Matt Williams without his cap?

 

[AZZenny]

Is it because he looks so much like Matt Williams without his cap?

See, there you have it. I believe I suggested soon after ST that Lyle needed to grow a moustache, to clearly differentiate himself from Matty for those whimsical beisbol gods.