Mahomes

Harry

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Well there is so much chatter on the board about Mahomes; I figured I put in my 3 cents worth. In a QB pool where there is little agreement on the best choice, no figure is more polarizing than Mahomes. I don’t buy into you can’t transition from his current offense, but it is challenging. I suspect if you read enough gurus you’ll some who actually say the exact opposite of some of my points. I reviewed every game this year. He doesn’t always exhibits the behaviors I describe, but he shows them often enough to be a valid assessment IMO.

Let’s start with why he excites some people. He has an incredibly strong arm. He is capable of making any throw required even when off balance, under pressure or on the run. His coach says he’s smart. I will respond to that later. He does a decent job of reading defenses and looking off safeties. He executes outstanding play action fakes. Mahomes runs a nice QB draw and he will fight for yardage. On this type of play he shows good patience. He is very athletic and capable of scrambling while keeping his eyes downfield. Mahomes is tough and will play hurt. He is a good, though quiet, leader. He has control of the huddle and doesn’t verbally boast.

Wow, he sounds like one great player, so what’s not to like? It starts with fundamentals. He easily has the weakest basics of all the top QB candidates. He has amazingly poor footwork when dropping back or setting up. He has a major hitch in his throwing path. He has an issue with touch. His ball placement frequently leaves his receivers exposed to big hits. Since he doesn’t follow through properly or step into his throws the ball often sails on crossing routes or screens. He can be careless when pitching the ball or throwing laterally to the sideline. He believes he can consistently throw into double or even triple coverage and succeed. He can be baited by smart defenders. Unlike his running, he seems impatient in the passing game and always looks for the big play. He often fails to check down and take what the defense offers.

When scrambling he fails to set his feet before throwing even when he has time. He doesn’t seem to sense backside pressure. He can freeze under pressure or get happy feet. When scrambling he doesn’t tuck the ball properly. Mahomes seems to have no idea of when to just take the sack, like when preserving a field goal opportunity.

My concern about intellect is simple. He’s known for a long time he wants to play in the NFL. Why has he apparently made little effort to improve his technique? He appears to be one of those guys who has quintessential athletic talent and is willing to go with that.

Here’s how I see it, if he’s coachable (he’s a legacy so that helps), he’s likely at least 2 years from being decent and 3 years from being good. He’ll win some games early he shouldn’t and lose ones he should win. I don’t know that anyone has enough patience for this ride and mostly I worry Mahomes doesn’t have that patience. He’s the gunslinger type and very, very few of those guys have made it. In talking with the people whose opinion I value most, there’s a real concern that if you try to change him he’ll lose that improvisational skill that makes him dangerous, like Manziel. The game may cease to be fun and he may not buy in. I think he goes too early to make me comfortable with choosing him and 13 is way too early. Someone could even take him earlier, but he seems too great a risk when there will be potential Pro Bowlers on the board at 13. I’m fully aware that he could one day be a play-maker, I’m just not willing to bet this much on it.
 

Reign Blood

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If the Cards get a qb in the first round you can guarantee the front office is investigating thoroughly.

Nice read.

Also...

If the Cards get a qb in the first round it hinges on the Browns. If they trade for Jimmy G then that puts two teams out of the running for a qb. I highly doubt the Browns would trade for a qb then draft one. I also highly doubt the Pats trade away a qb to draft one at 1 or 12.
 

az jam

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Thanks Harry for the in-depth analysis. He would be a good pickup for the Cards in round 2 but he probably will be taken earlier.
 

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I worry that whoever they draft will be another Logan Thomas - big, strong, big arm, "high ceiling", but in the end, unfixable and completely worthless. At least they only blew a 4th on Thomas. Taking another stiff in the 1st or 2nd and wasting time attempting to develop him would be disastrous at this point.
 

WildBB

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Very thorough analysis Harry. Very good comments.

My question is who do you see having the highest ceiling among the draft group? That will tell a lot of the story of who is picked where.
 

cardpa

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It seems that Mahomes is an enigma, some are very positive about him and it runs the gambit to pretty negative comments about him. I am not sure there is any QB worthy of a 1st round pick in this draft when you can pick another position that would in all probability be a safer bet. They all seem to have some fairly serious warts.
 

juza76

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It seems that Mahomes is an enigma, some are very positive about him and it runs the gambit to pretty negative comments about him. I am not sure there is any QB worthy of a 1st round pick in this draft when you can pick another position that would in all probability be a safer bet. They all seem to have some fairly serious warts.
The last pick supposed to be the safest pick was Jonothon Cooper
 
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Krangodnzr

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I agree with everything you say, but I think the team needs to gamble on greatness. Few teams become really good without doing so.

Mahome in my opinion has the most upside of any playet in this draft. He could be Russell Wilson with better size and a stronger arm.

His downside is fairly significant, I agree. Thats where I trust BASk; if they dont get him, I trust that they have determined that it's unlikely he'll ever be good. But in my football fantasy, the Cardinals finally make good on the exciting Plummer-like prospect.
 

TheCardFan

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I agree with everything you say, but I think the team needs to gamble on greatness. Few teams become really good without doing so.

Mahome in my opinion has the most upside of any player in this draft. He could be Russell Wilson with better size and a stronger arm.

Russell Wilson was taken in the 3rd round.

How many QB's in the last 10 years have been drafted from picks 13-32 in Round 1 and went on to be franchise QB's?

I believe the answer is zero.

You would have to go back to:

2005 - Aaron Rodgers
1987 - Jim Harbaugh

The stats don't lie. In a draft like this (no clear cut #1 or #1-6), you are better off taking a QB after rd 1.
 

SissyBoyFloyd

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If I may play DA for a moment. We all keep mentioning all the QBs we have drafted and/or tried to mentor this century, including a Heisman winner and one or more big strong arm QBs, and we all are quick to point out what a failure and how bad they all turned out. Has anyone really questioned if the problem is in the Cards' coaching or system of bringing these youngsters along? Are they all failing do to just their own ineptitude or inability to grasp the pro game? Or is it possible one or more might have succeeded if under a different system or team of coaches? Just wondering!
 

WildBB

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The last pick supposed to be the safest pick was Jonothon Cooper
If I may play DA for a moment. We all keep mentioning all the QBs we have drafted and/or tried to mentor this century, including a Heisman winner and one or more big strong arm QBs, and we all are quick to point out what a failure and how bad they all turned out. Has anyone really questioned if the problem is in the Cards' coaching or system of bringing these youngsters along? Are they all failing do to just their own ineptitude or inability to grasp the pro game? Or is it possible one or more might have succeeded if under a different system or team of coaches? Just wondering!
It's not just us. Every team almost has issues filling that QB slot. That's why so many of them wind up drafting 1st and shoot for the moon on one. Or trade up giving up numerous high draft picks.
 

DVontel

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Russell Wilson was taken in the 3rd round.

How many QB's in the last 10 years have been drafted from picks 13-32 in Round 1 and went on to be franchise QB's?

I believe the answer is zero.

You would have to go back to:

2005 - Aaron Rodgers
1987 - Jim Harbaugh

The stats don't lie. In a draft like this (no clear cut #1 or #1-6), you are better off taking a QB after rd 1.
What kind of arbitrary bs is this? lol
 

football karma

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ill throw in one observation / concern on Mahomes:

for two years he has played on a team where if the offense didnt score nearly every drive -- they would lose.

i am curious how much of a factor this is in his "gun-slinger-ness" --

is this now ingrained and has ruined him -- much the same way poor offensive line protection can ruin a young QB to where all they see is the rush

or,

is this a situation where when he doesnt have to score every drive, he plays a more responsible style of football
 

TheCardFan

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What kind of arbitrary bs is this? lol

The point is...franchise QB's are drafted at the very top, not where we pick and not when there isn't a clear cut QBOF. We pick at 13 and that's why I used that number. The facts are what the facts are...doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is not going to help. We all get hyped up over potential but potential gets you fired (so they say). :)

Can't wait until the same members on this board make the same exact excuses for next years class, 2019 class, 2020, & 2021 class.

I don't think they are excuses...they are true evaluations of talent and based on historical precedent. Check out that file I posted above and let me know if you see anything differently from that data.
 

RugbyMuffin

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Well there is so much chatter on the board about Mahomes; I figured I put in my 3 cents worth. In a QB pool where there is little agreement on the best choice, no figure is more polarizing than Mahomes. I don’t buy into you can’t transition from his current offense, but it is challenging.

Which of the top 4 QB is not coming from a "non-NFL type offense" to a NFL offense and does not have to worry about transition ?

Mahomes, and Watson are both from spread offenses.

Kizer was benched last year, and inaccuracy is a death knell for NFL QBs

As for Trubisky? 13 games......total.

Take your pick if you ask me.

Not to mention Davis Webb is a from a spread offense............


Good write up by the way.
 
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oaken1

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The point is...franchise QB's are drafted at the very top, not where we pick and not when there isn't a clear cut QBOF. We pick at 13 and that's why I used that number. The facts are what the facts are...doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is not going to help. We all get hyped up over potential but potential gets you fired (so they say). :)



I don't think they are excuses...they are true evaluations of talent and based on historical precedent. Check out that file I posted above and let me know if you see anything differently from that data.
while I agree with your premise... there are guys drafted after 13 that become those franchise guys.
The risk is there with any position when you are drafting high,...some guys just don't handle the NFL well for one reason or another. But because QB's are so hard to find you have to take those risks if you have an inkling that this guy might be THE guy.... due to the learning curve the extra year of financial control on a player is huge...the extra year of evaluation is also huge..
personally I kinda like Kizer....love watsons intangibles but the dude is going to be an INT machine in the NFL....velocity is too low and he floats his deep balls ,and when they aint floating they are off target... nfl DB's are going to eat Watson alive I think, unless he gets into a west coast type system where he never throws over ten yards.... mahomes just doesn't feel right.............. I like all of them a lot better at 25 than at 13... but we pick at 13
 

WildBB

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while I agree with your premise... there are guys drafted after 13 that become those franchise guys.
The risk is there with any position when you are drafting high,...some guys just don't handle the NFL well for one reason or another. But because QB's are so hard to find you have to take those risks if you have an inkling that this guy might be THE guy.... due to the learning curve the extra year of financial control on a player is huge...the extra year of evaluation is also huge..
personally I kinda like Kizer....love watsons intangibles but the dude is going to be an INT machine in the NFL....velocity is too low and he floats his deep balls ,and when they aint floating they are off target... nfl DB's are going to eat Watson alive I think, unless he gets into a west coast type system where he never throws over ten yards.... mahomes just doesn't feel right.............. I like all of them a lot better at 25 than at 13... but we pick at 13
Yes......When was Marino drafted? Montana? Rothlisberger? Farve? Rogers? Flaco? All mid to late 1st rounders cept Montana & Brees(2nd). It's possible to develop them. You have to put them in desirable situations with good personnel around them and preferably a mentor with solid fundamental coaching.
 

TheCardFan

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It's called bending the facts to fit your argument. He doesn't want us taking a QB this year in round 1, and will do anything to prove his point. He could be right, but there's every chance he's wrong.

It's not an argument...the facts are the facts. Look at that link and tell me where those facts are wrong.

I want the QBOF just as much as anyone else but I don't think the risk at #13 is justified based on history (facts).
 
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The point is...franchise QB's are drafted at the very top, not where we pick and not when there isn't a clear cut QBOF. We pick at 13 and that's why I used that number. The facts are what the facts are...doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is not going to help. We all get hyped up over potential but potential gets you fired (so they say). :)



I don't think they are excuses...they are true evaluations of talent and based on historical precedent. Check out that file I posted above and let me know if you see anything differently from that data.

If every team went by ''you have to draft your franchise QB in the first 10-12 picks'' then we wouldn't have Kurt Warner, Tom Brady, etc. You can find a franchise QB at any point in the draft & history has proven that. Most are in the top 10 or so picks but not all.
 

TheCardFan

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If every team went by ''you have to draft your franchise QB in the first 10-12 picks'' then we wouldn't have Kurt Warner, Tom Brady, etc. You can find a franchise QB at any point in the draft & history has proven that. Most are in the top 10 or so picks but not all.

Your missing the point. 2 QB's in the past 30 years have been drafted at #13 or later in round 1 and become a franchise QB. I am not making this stuff up people. 2 times in 30 years...you want to bet on those odds? Better pick a top rated player at #13 and take a chance on a QB later in the draft...you might get a Brady, Wilson, Cousins, etc.

Russell Wilson was taken in the 3rd round.

How many QB's in the last 10 years have been drafted from picks 13-32 in Round 1 and went on to be franchise QB's?

I believe the answer is zero.

You would have to go back to:

2005 - Aaron Rodgers
1987 - Jim Harbaugh

The stats don't lie. In a draft like this (no clear cut #1 or #1-6), you are better off taking a QB after rd 1.
 
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It's not an argument...the facts are the facts. Look at that link and tell me where those facts are wrong.

I want the QBOF just as much as anyone else but I don't think the risk at #13 is justified based on history (facts).

Where is the link? I just went back through the thread looking for it & couldn't find one. Am I missing something?
 

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