Mahomes

[Jetstream Green]

Let's not sugarcoat it...Leinart sucked. There were many reasons he didn't make it but the biggest one of them all was a lack of NFL talent. The rest are just excuses.

Drafting Leinart was one of the greatest draft days in my Cardinal memory but the guy was a bust.

I think if Wisenhunt would have handled him better, he might still be in the league as a backup but never a starter except when Cleveland needed a stop gap between the draft lol

 

[juza76]

I think if Wisenhunt would have handled him better, he might still be in the league as a backup but never a starter except when Cleveland needed a stop gap between the draft lol

God helps those who help themselves

 

[Harry]

So much of the success of a QB depends on whether the team will mold its offense to the QB or tries to change the QB. QBs and CBs both seem to lose everything when they lose their confidence. For some reason it seems an inordinate number never regain it fully. I think both Leinart & Plummer could have succeeded given the right offense and the right surrounding personnel. Neither was so good they could elevate the play of those around them. Then again few QBs can do that. Still not every team has to have a hall of famer to win. The Cards haven't got a history of putting QBs in a position to win. At least Warner & Palmer had good skilled people on offense. If they'd had better O-lines they might have gone all the way.

 

[juza76]

leinart and plummer dont have nothing in common, one was a bust with few sub par starts ,plummer played at high level till he decided to retire

 

[Krangodnzr]

leinart and plummer dont have nothing in common, one was a bust with few sub par starts ,plummer played at high level till he decided to retire

Revisionist history. Plummer was largely a bust too. He had one real decent season, but he never played to his ability.

 

[oaken1]

Let's not sugarcoat it...Leinart sucked. There were many reasons he didn't make it but the biggest one of them all was a lack of NFL talent. The rest are just excuses.

Drafting Leinart was one of the greatest draft days in my Cardinal memory but the guy was a bust.

DING DING DING!!

okay asfn ....now we know EXACTLY who NOT to pay attention to in QB evaluations...clear winner here

 

[Jetstream Green]

So much of the success of a QB depends on whether the team will mold its offense to the QB or tries to change the QB. QBs and CBs both seem to lose everything when they lose their confidence. For some reason it seems an inordinate number never regain it fully. I think both Leinart & Plummer could have succeeded given the right offense and the right surrounding personnel. Neither was so good they could elevate the play of those around them. Then again few QBs can do that. Still not every team has to have a hall of famer to win. The Cards haven't got a history of putting QBs in a position to win. At least Warner & Palmer had good skilled people on offense. If they'd had better O-lines they might have gone all the way.

I disagree, I saw Plummer on occasions make those around him better and was one of the reasons there where more than one in the media actually comparing that magic to Montana of all QBs early in his career with the Cardinals

 

[oaken1]

leinart and plummer dont have nothing in common, one was a bust with few sub par starts ,plummer played at high level till he decided to retire

Leinart holds nfl and cardinal records for rookie passers...

loved the hell out of Jake but he was an inconsistent disaster until he went to Denver..... the best part about jake was watching him try his ass off to dig us out of the holes he created for us....while the biggest knock on Matt Leinart on the field was that he was too safe with the ball....thus the moniker..."Captain Checkdown"

 

[Yuma]

While I see the criticism about fundamentals, either a guy is successful reading the defense and timing his throws, or he isn't. Guys like Brees, Steve Young, etc., are successful even though they may not be the most fundamental coming out of college. Hell, Brees has to do all kinds of effed up things to get the ball to his guys on time in the open because of his height, but he's damned good. To me the mental is way more important than the fundamentals. That's the hard part about picking these guys. You have to watch tape, but college defenses are not as good as pro defenses, so there's the problem. If Mahomes can read the NFL defenses sucessfully and know which guys are open and have the ball to the open spots on time, I don't care if he jumps on every throw, LOL!

 

[Cardiac]

So much of the success of a QB depends on whether the team will mold its offense to the QB or tries to change the QB. QBs and CBs both seem to lose everything when they lose their confidence. For some reason it seems an inordinate number never regain it fully. I think both Leinart & Plummer could have succeeded given the right offense and the right surrounding personnel. Neither was so good they could elevate the play of those around them. Then again few QBs can do that. Still not every team has to have a hall of famer to win. The Cards haven't got a history of putting QBs in a position to win. At least Warner & Palmer had good skilled people on offense. If they'd had better O-lines they might have gone all the way.

I agree that coaches can negatively impact a QB but disagree that was the case with Leinart and Plummer. Neither of them put in the time preparing that the most of the great ones do. Shannahan got a good year out of Plummer but Russ Smith (IIRC) posted info about how Plummer simply didn't work hard enough.

Warner was very diplomatic when asked if he thought Leinart could be great. KW basically said if he puts in the work and studies and listens to his coaches he does have the tools. I could be reading too much into it but it was the way that KW said it that gave me the impression he wasn't impressed with how ML was preparing himself for games and how he was practicing.

 

[JeffGollin]

I don't automatically buy into the premise that "either a QB can read defenses or he can't.

I think that aspect of the game is less an off/on switch and more like a rheostat where a QB can get gradually better...or conversely, regress.

I also think part of the process has to do with the amount of pass pressure a QB can tolerate (The hope is that a developing QB can deal with more pressure as he gains experience, but some guys get shell-shocked and never satisfactorily get used to the headlights).

Finally - it's not all about the QB - you might want to think in terms of a giant complex pass completion "animal" with several integral parts that contribute to success: Gotta throw the ball. Gotta catch the ball. Gotta keep pass rushers off the QB's back so he can throw the ball. Gotta call plays that make it easier to throw and catch the ball. All tied up into a "big, complex bird" whose body parts have to operate in some sort of coordinated manner. Break down in any one area and you risk ending up with a ball that never reaches its target...and ultimately one big old ugly wounded bird.

 

[Jetstream Green]

I don't automatically buy into the premise that "either a QB can read defenses or he can't.

I think that aspect of the game is less an off/on switch and more like a rheostat where a QB can get gradually better...or conversely, regress.

I also think part of the process has to do with the amount of pass pressure a QB can tolerate (The hope is that a developing QB can deal with more pressure as he gains experience, but some guys get shell-shocked and never satisfactorily get used to the headlights).

Finally - it's not all about the QB - you might want to think in terms of a giant complex pass completion "animal" with several integral parts that contribute to success: Gotta throw the ball. Gotta catch the ball. Gotta keep pass rushers off the QB's back so he can throw the ball. Gotta call plays that make it easier to throw and catch the ball. All tied up into a "big, complex bird" whose body parts have to operate in some sort of coordinated manner. Break down in any one area and you risk ending up with a ball that never reaches its target...and ultimately one big old ugly wounded bird.

I think David Carr is a good example of this. He went to an expansion team and was used as a tackling dummy by opponents and if he would have been drafted by a more established team, he would have a much different story... he would have had a chance