Marion concerns???

[Cheesebeef]

cheese did you watch the last couple games of the season? marion made a big shots in the last seconds to help us win the game. but to say that marion isnt a leader or vocal is wrong. the game against the clippers he came and and blasted jj because of his bad preformace. he has been the captian of the tea for years.

as far as compairing pippen to marion, you are right they are very differant players. marion doesnt have the ball handling of pippen, or as good of a one on one defender. pippen isnt anywhere close to being as good of a rebounder, he may not have been as good at steals in marion (it is close), and he was no where close to the shot blocker that marion is. but pippen has played in the shadow of some of the best players in the nba and that has helped him a lot. i would say that they were both about as good of scorers.

I disagree heavily with everything you say above.

Pippen has averaged over 2 steals per game for his career and that's including the last four years when he's been way past his prime and injured - whereas over the course of Shawn's career - and considering a guy in his prime right now - has aervaged 1.8 - so how is it you can saythat "he (pippen) may not have been as good at steals in marion (it is close)" - shouldn't that statement be the other way around - especially considering that Pippen averaged allmost 3 steals during this same time period that Shawn is going thru?

As for block shots - Pippen for his career has averaged .8 blocks per game - compared to Shawn's 1.2 - and when Pippen was in his prime as Shawn is now - he averaged .93 blocks per game - is .3 blocks per game really "no where near close to the shot blocker Marion is?" Hardly.

As far as offense is concerned - of course Pippen's number look Marion-esque if you just look at points per game - but funny - I don't think Shawn has averaged anything close to the 6 dimes Pippen laid out during his first seven or eight seasons and Pippen could do one thing Shawn still can't - create off the dribble, get the hole and draw fouls. And his points per game doesn't even take into consideration that he had the single greatest points machine the league has ever seen playing with him - Shawn has played with no one of that caliber to keep his points where they are.

Rebounding I'll give you -- Shawn's got the edge there - but you make it seem like Pippen wasn't a good rebounder when the opposite is true.

As far as big shots at the end of meaningless games last year - that's nice - when Marion actually hits a big shot in the playoffs or even shows up - then you can say he hits big shots - until then he's just a good player and shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath as Pippen - who even I think is over-rated - but still is light years better than Shawn is or will ever be. And as fra as him being team captian - whoop-de-freaking-do - he's been a captain of a team that finished second to last in the conference one year, way out of the playoffs in another and wasn't anywhere close to a leader when Marbs and Stoudamire took us to the playoffs as an eight seed - where Marion did his dissappearing act, again.

 

[Cheesebeef]

You two are constantly throwing about negativity.

You have come here and said you will be the "new darkside"

Why? Is there some joy to it?

that was a joke Chris. And no one said that until the Steve Nash thing and tempers were running hot - You make it sound like me and Ouchie just got here like a week ago and all we've been doing is spouting negative crap - well guess what - that's garbage - I've been on this board since the San Antonio series and used to talk about how refreshing it was to be able to come to a place where I can actually be optimistic - but I guess if you say it, it must be true.

You see here's the difference - the darkside is dead on the Cards board - why - because the Cardinals actually did something right and made wholesale changes after what we predicted was gonna be the worst year in franchise history - we got what we wanted - GOOD MOVES - SOMETHING TO CHEER FOR - and if you had read this site at all - you would know that both me and Ouchie have been doing the same here before the Nash signing - hell - we were even defending the Colangelos when the Marbs trade went down when everyone else was flying off the deep end - ask Skkorp how many times I've defended the Colangelos as far as B-ball goes - but oh, screw it - I got better things to do today than talk to a hypocrite.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

It is possible that Marion's true ability lies somewhere between the extremes of Roleplayer and Scottie Pippen.

 

[Cheesebeef]

It is possible that Marion's true ability lies somewhere between the extremes of Roleplayer and Scottie Pippen.

He's a good player - the greatest role player in the NBA IMO - but I just don't see where Pippen can be brought into the argument except for same build and hops and Shawn doesn't even have Pippen's hops.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

that was a joke Chris.

I will hope so.

I asked you guys what it would take for the Suns to be free from the "darkside" and you still haven't really given me a real answer there.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

He's a good player - the greatest role player in the NBA IMO - but I just don't see where Pippen can be brought into the argument except for same build and hops and Shawn doesn't even have Pippen's hops.

Well the biggest point that Scotsman was trying to make originally is that Pippen was willing to take less shots and give the ball up to his co-star.

Marion appears willing to do the same thing for Amare.

This is why if I have to choose between Marion and JJ I pick Marion since it seems JJ needs the ball to really reach his potential.

 

[The Commish]

Before the signing of Nash, I was one of those who agreed trading Marion would perhaps benefit the team (depending on who we got of course). Now my mindset has changed, and I feel with Nash at the helm, Marion is going to have another solid year. In my mind trading Marion would in essence be taking a step backward. I think we should either trade JJ+ to get Dalembert or do nothing at all. I do not want to overpay a mediocre center at best for just the mere purpose of addressing the need. Try to resign dice or get Etan Thomas for the MLE and hope you can get a big man by using Chi's pick next year.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I will hope so.

I asked you guys what it would take for the Suns to be free from the "darkside" and you still haven't really given me a real answer there.

jeez man - and if it's not Chris what are you gonna do about it - will continue to hijack threads like this one where instead of talking basketball - which I was talking - you decided to just come out with some more personal garbage?

As far as the answer to your question - I thought I did answer that question - answer is I don't know - I like the Q signing - I like the idea of trading Marion and Chicago's pick for someone like Dampier or Z from Cleveland - and most of all - what it will take to get us out of the darkside is to be PROVEN wrong - The Cards proved us wrong in this offseason by getting Dennis Green, signing a couple studs, drafting Fitz and have you even heard a word from me but praise about what's going on over there - I'll praise when given reason to - I hold praise for the Suns a little bit more because I expect nothing from the Cards - whereas I expect excellence from the Suns - it wazs what I grew up with and personally - I don't see that - and it makes me question even more not going after Kobe seeing how apparently BC's first call was to Nash - when everyone here goes around with the assumption that we did try to deal with Kobe and he said he wasn't going out of LA - where the hell did that come from - I mean we have never even had one report that we even talked to Kobe before Nash - and this is what the whole Kobe-Nash thing (before Q) boils down to for me - the Suns played it safe - they got a guy that will put them in the playoffs likely and be a relatively good team that won't be able to challenge the best teams for a couple years - but in a couple years, Nash is gonna be older and not as effective and then we may be able to play with those teams, but maybe not - as opposed to Kobe - if you go hard after Kobe and get him - you have a chance at not just being good or having a shot every couple years - You have a chance at absolute EXCELLENCE - I'M TALKING DOMINATION - that's what I wanted to see - This team needs to take risks - which is why I like the Q signing - and well forget it - I know all I'm gonna get in response to this is "get over it" and other crap like that so why even bother.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Well the biggest point that Scotsman was trying to make originally is that Pippen was willing to take less shots and give the ball up to his co-star.

Marion appears willing to do the same thing for Amare.

This is why if I have to choose between Marion and JJ I pick Marion since it seems JJ needs the ball to really reach his potential.

that I agree with.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Before the signing of Nash, I was one of those who agreed trading Marion would perhaps benefit the team (depending on who we got of course). Now my mindset has changed, and I feel with Nash at the helm, Marion is going to have another solid year. In my mind trading Marion would in essence be taking a step backward. I think we should either trade JJ+ to get Dalembert or do nothing at all. I do not want to overpay a mediocre center at best for just the mere purpose of addressing the need. Try to resign dice or get Etan Thomas for the MLE and hope you can get a big man by using Chi's pick next year.

I am just hoping Marion returns to his career stats prior to last year. If he does, the Suns will win a lot more games just based on that.

I have held out hope that this last year was the abberation, not his prior years.

 

[wsupkid]

Who doesnt have Pippens hops? Marion can jump over Pippen!!

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Cheese I am just asking you what you expect from the Suns this year so that you will be as gracious to them as you have to the Cardinals.

It isn't a trick question, loaded question, whatever...I am not trying to call you out right now.

I am just wondering what your expectations are. I am not talking something empherical like "a change in organizational policy", I am talking like wins, losses, playoffs, ect...

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Marion can jump over Pippen!!

 

[sunsfn]

After the suns signed Nash I thought that Marion is perfect with him and still do. At this point I agree with you that Marion may not be overpaid.

The think about JJ is that he can get off his shot any time he wants. He proved that last year. Late in a game he can get open and can make the shot. And he plays great defense.

However in a trade JJ does not have the trade value because of his salary. Therefore, Marions contract is what the suns are trading for another player.

I do not want them to trade either, but at this point for less money and maybe just maybe for more upside JJ stays. JJ has the "potential" to be a perennial all-star in a couple years. I mean perennial!!! He has all the tools and just needs time.

The way some of you talk, there is no way you have seen JJ play much.

I would not trade JJ for Pierce straight up. Pierce is better today, but he will not be later, maybe after next year.

As far as needing the ball to reach his potentional, THEY ALL DO!!

But I still do not understand what the suns are doing..........?

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I will hope so.

I asked you guys what it would take for the Suns to be free from the "darkside" and you still haven't really given me a real answer there.

i really don't consider the suns to be in the darkside's clutches. though i'm not ecstatic with the numbers in the nash contract, i think he's a great addition and i am VERY hopeful that the clips won't match q's contract. both those signings are good additions. i'll be even happier if they can swing the q signing into a trade of one of our three starting-caliber swingmen into an acceptable center.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Who doesnt have Pippens hops? Marion can jump over Pippen!!

you don't have a good recollection of pippen. i'd say their hops were comparable. but pippen wasn't the wuss that marion is. pippen would dunk on you. marion won't approach you now.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Cheese I am just asking you what you expect from the Suns this year so that you will be as gracious to them as you have to the Cardinals.

It isn't a trick question, loaded question, whatever...I am not trying to call you out right now.

I am just wondering what your expectations are. I am not talking something empherical like "a change in organizational policy", I am talking like wins, losses, playoffs, ect...

i expect them to make the playoffs. high 40s in wins. amare continue to step forward as a superstar. jj not revert to his shell. that's what i'm expeecting outta this team.

 

[sly fly]

This thread is hilarious.

Where were all of you Marion lovers when he was frustrating the hell out of us last year? Especially, the beginning of the year when he thought he was Dell Curry?

I think the love affair with Marion start slowly as the year ends. Then, by mid-summer his "legend" has grown so much that some are claiming he's one of the best team players in the league. ???

Some of you have Marionitis.

Don't get me wrong, the guy has all the tools. Great body for ball. Never gets tired. Above-average defender. Can fill up a stat book.

But, even Eddie Johnson was cynical of Marion's game last year. And, even HE questioned some of the decisions he made on the court.

I'm not buying the Marion hype until he can contribute in more ways than hitting an occasional 3 or grabbing uncontested defensive rebounds.

 

[Chaplin]

This thread is hilarious.

Where were all of you Marion lovers when he was frustrating the hell out of us last year? Especially, the beginning of the year when he thought he was Dell Curry?

I think the love affair with Marion start slowly as the year ends. Then, by mid-summer his "legend" has grown so much that some are claiming he's one of the best team players in the league. ???

Some of you have Marionitis.

Don't get me wrong, the guy has all the tools. Great body for ball. Never gets tired. Above-average defender. Can fill up a stat book.

But, even Eddie Johnson was cynical of Marion's game last year. And, even HE questioned some of the decisions he made on the court.

I'm not buying the Marion hype until he can contribute in more ways than hitting an occasional 3 or grabbing uncontested defensive rebounds.

Well, gee whiz, does that mean you prefer Dalembert or Ilgauskus over him?

It's one thing to overvalue Marion, but it's another to logically choose him over a big man that either is too old, slow or inexperienced.

 

[sly fly]

Well, gee whiz, does that mean you prefer Dalembert or Ilgauskus over him?

It's one thing to overvalue Marion, but it's another to logically choose him over a big man that either is too old, slow or inexperienced.

Cleveland can keep Z. Dalembert would be intriguing.

I'm not saying the Suns should actively pursue a trade for Marion, but if the right offer came along to IMPROVE the team... then you have to look at it.

I've loved what PHX had done so far. They haven't overpaid for Joe Barry Carrol or Luc Tsakalidis. They simply went out and got players who can score and help their teammates score. You can never have enough "ballers".

I really hope the Clips don't match Q.

This is going to be a fun team to watch. In fact, I'm leaning towards being back in for season tix.

 

[Chaplin]

Cleveland can keep Z. Dalembert would be intriguing.

I'm not saying the Suns should actively pursue a trade for Marion, but if the right offer came along to IMPROVE the team... then you have to look at it.

I've loved what PHX had done so far. They haven't overpaid for Joe Barry Carrol or Luc Tsakalidis. They simply went out and got players who can score and help their teammates score. You can never have enough "ballers".

I really hope the Clips don't match Q.

This is going to be a fun team to watch. In fact, I'm leaning towards being back in for season tix.

Well, I'm on your side of the fence on this one.

But, I think Marion will have a terrific year, because of two things--the Olympics (for some reason he played well 2 years ago) and Steve Nash. I really think Nash will make Marion a bonafide star and worth the money he's being paid.

That said, if I wanted anybody to be traded, it would definitely be Joe Johnson. I like him, but I'm not sold on him being past all his confidence issues.

But in the end, I prefer not trading anybody. The team as it stands now is pretty good. I wish we had a good center, but I don't think there is any center out there we could get for Marion that would impact us as much as if we still had him.

 

[ActingWild]

This thread is hilarious.

Where were all of you Marion lovers when he was frustrating the hell out of us last year? Especially, the beginning of the year when he thought he was Dell Curry?

I think the love affair with Marion start slowly as the year ends. Then, by mid-summer his "legend" has grown so much that some are claiming he's one of the best team players in the league. ???

Some of you have Marionitis.

Don't get me wrong, the guy has all the tools. Great body for ball. Never gets tired. Above-average defender. Can fill up a stat book.

But, even Eddie Johnson was cynical of Marion's game last year. And, even HE questioned some of the decisions he made on the court.

I'm not buying the Marion hype until he can contribute in more ways than hitting an occasional 3 or grabbing uncontested defensive rebounds.

I'm not saying I've never been frustrated with Marion's 3 point attempts. I'd also like to see him slash to the basket more. However, even with those 3s he's still a tremndous asset to our team. He DOES play defense, he does lead (by example...you don't have to get in someone's face to be a leader...there's several examples of that throughout sports) he can score (those little floaters and turnarounds he hits now are deadly) and he's one of the best rebounders in the league.

Now, would I trade Marion for Pippen in his prime? Without any hesitation, I'd pull the trigger on that deal. However, we're talking about moving him for the sake of opening up time for Q and to add a big man that last time I checked, hadn't watched an all-star game, much less played in one. I don't think moving someone of Shawn's proven talent for an unproven center to be worthwhile. (Unless you're talking about a kid that's just lit up the competition on every level he's played and whom is projected to dominate...ala Shaq, Duncan, Olajouan, Ewing etc).

It just sounds like Dan Majerle for Hot Rod Williams all over again (and as much as I loved Dan, Shawn's got a much better game than Majerle ever did).

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

It just sounds like Dan Majerle for Hot Rod Williams all over again (and as much as I loved Dan, Shawn's got a much better game than Majerle ever did).

it's NOTHING like the majerle - hot rod deal. hot rod was already old and injury prone. we're throwin' around names like dampier - still in his prime, and dalembert young guy with promise.

and though i agree that shawn is more physically talented, i'd take more majerles than marions any day of the week. heart of a warrior, clutch three-point shooter, excellent defender. marion wishes he could be majerle.

 

[sly fly]

... and as much as I loved Dan, Shawn's got a much better game than Majerle ever did.

Pretty good post up until that gem.

 

[loudandobnoxious]

I really think Nash will make Marion a bonafide star and worth the money he's being paid.

Can you please point out the differences between Nash and Kidd?

Thank you.