Marion & JJ recruiting Camby

[Joe Mama]

This is an interesting read, but I absolutely guarantee the Phoenix Suns will not sign Marcus Camby. It will take a big contract to get him, and there's no way the Phoenix Suns will give it to him with his history of injuries. As much as the Nuggets need him they should probably be cautious as well.

Joe Mama


http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36~90~1906841,00.html

Camby: Center of attention

Late surge sends Nuggets past Suns

By Adam Thompson
Denver Post Sports Writer


AP / David Zalubowski

Nuggets center Marcus Camby gets some hang time Wednesday night after his dunk in the fourth quarter. Camby contributed 22 points, 18 rebounds and six blocked shots to the Nuggets’ 97-92 victory over the Phoenix Suns at the Pepsi Center.


Marcus Camby's game in the Nuggets' 97-92 win over Phoenix on Wednesday at the Pepsi Center could be interpreted one of three ways: a statement to the Nuggets, an audition for the Suns or just his best performance of the season.

Camby scored a season-high 22 points and added 18 rebounds and six blocked shots as Denver (26-18) overcame a nine-point, third-quarter deficit to win its third straight game. And the center said he did so with two Suns - Shawn Marion and Joe Johnson - whispering in his ear about joining them in the desert.

"Shawn Marion and Joe Johnson were throwing a lot of recruiting out there tonight," Camby said. "This is where I want to be. (The Nuggets are) going to have the first crack."

Asked what they told him, Camby replied: "'We know your deal is up. You know we've got money this summer.' I was hearing that all night."

With their recent trade of Stephon Marbury and Penny Hardaway, the Suns became contenders in the free-agent market this summer. They are projected to have $8 million available, compared with Denver's $20 million.

Camby has a $7.75 million option that would kick in next season only if he met some tough-to-reach statistical plateaus. His agent, Rick Kaplan, has said Camby would opt out regardless, though both Camby and the Nuggets have expressed interest in re-upping at season's end.

Asked about Phoenix's alleged sales job, Denver general manager Kiki Vandeweghe said: "First of all, that's players talking. Second of all, that's not a real legal thing to do, recruiting players. I would hope they didn't do that. I definitely want (Camby) back."

On Wednesday, the center iced the game with 22.8 seconds left by recovering Jake Voskuhl's block of a shot by Andre Miller and hitting an off-balance, 20-foot fadeaway jumper as the shot clock expired.

Neither Johnson, who scored a career-high 28 to lead all players, nor Marion would admit to any in-game recruiting. Both spoke admiringly of Camby's game.

"I told him he took the life out of us when he took that shot," said Johnson, whose team dropped to 16-27 and lots its third straight to Denver this season.

Added Marion, "That was the dagger."

Nuggets coach Jeff Bzdelik called Camby "outstanding." The seventh-year pro has avoided major injuries this season after never having played more than 63 games in an NBA season.

"The issue with Marcus has always been his health. One thing that I will say, since he's been healthy" - Bzdelik paused for five knocks on podium wood - "for a long period of time, he's really getting into great shape. When he's in and out of the lineup and injured, he doesn't have the practice time to really fit in well with the other players and also get himself into optimal shape."


In the second half Chris Ander- sen got Denver's defense going in a quick seven minutes. Earl Boykins had 10 of his 13 points in the fourth quarter to help push Denver ahead. Rodney White all but erased Phoenix's lead himself, scoring 11 of his 17 points in a 1:34 span of the third quarter to tie the game 66-66.

"When I get going like that, it will be hard to stop me," said White, who reached double figures in scoring for the fourth straight game and also is a free agent-to-be.

The basketball futures of Camby and White may be murky, but they won't be short of suitors with more games like Wednesday's.

"It's fun being in the playoff hunt," said Camby, who went to the NBA Finals with the New York Knicks. "It reminds me of where I used to be."

 

[slinslin]

Don't be so sure Joe.

If the Suns don't get Kobe , Camby is one of the best options.

A healthy Camby is almost the perfect center for the Suns. He would improve our defense by a LOT.

If Camby keeps it up for the rest of the season I would definately like him as a signing starting somewhere between 5-6M$ for 4-5 years.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

I think the funniest thing is DENVER talking about how much of a no no it is for players to recruit players.

 

[scotsman13]

yea if was illegal to do the nuggets would be in the same boat that the wolves have been in. they did the samething to the suns in the lockout year with the suns and mcdyess. personally a front line of amare, camby and marion would be very scary rebounding and shotblocking wise, but they wouldnt spead the floor well and that would make things harder for amare, and jj with his midrange game.

 

[Joe Mama]

Oh, I don't doubt that the Phoenix Suns would love a healthy Marcus Camby. If his health was not an issue they would probably throw a lot of money at him this summer. The problem is that he is one of the most injury plagued players in the NBA. If he is going to sign for $5-6 million he will want a long-term deal. The Suns will not give it to him. It wouldn't surprise me if they show some interest in him however. Why not? If they can't somehow convinced him to sign a smaller contract (not at all likely) at least they can at least force the Nuggets to overpay.

Joe Mama

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by Joe Mama
Oh, I don't doubt that the Phoenix Suns would love a healthy Marcus Camby. If his health was not an issue they would probably throw a lot of money at him this summer. The problem is that he is one of the most injury plagued players in the NBA. If he is going to sign for $5-6 million he will want a long-term deal. The Suns will not give it to him. It wouldn't surprise me if they show some interest in him however. Why not? If they can't somehow convinced him to sign a smaller contract (not at all likely) at least they can at least force the Nuggets to overpay.

Joe Mama

Sounds like a plan.

Camby just killed the Suns, but I'm not sure he is an ideal fit. He is very, very light (about 225) and gets pushed around by physical centers. That along with his history of injuries would make me a bit nervous about signing him, but it all depends on how much he wants.

 

[slinslin]

No way is Camby 225lbs, stop looking at nba.com profiles. 225 that is likely his weight as a rookie.
Camby is definately between 240-260.

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3 games 14ppg 15rpg 2apg 4bpg 1.3spg 33mpg against the Suns

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by slinslin
No way is Camby 225lbs, stop looking at nba.com profiles. 225 that is likely his weight as a rookie.
Camby is definately between 240-260.

3 games 14ppg 15rpg 2apg 4bpg 1.3spg 33mpg against the Suns

You may be right that he is bigger, but he still has a reputation of having problems with physical centers. The Suns are not a good test because Voskuhl is a finesse center and White is way slow.

 

[slinslin]

Well really? How many big centers are there then?

Shaq........................................................

Yao is finesse.

How many better centers than Camby are even out there?

1. Shaq
2. Miller
3. Yao
.
.
.
Camby
Magloire
Ratliff
Ilgauskas
Dampier

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by slinslin
Well really? How many big centers are there then?

Shaq........................................................

Yao is finesse.

How many better centers than Camby are even out there?

1. Shaq
2. Miller
3. Yao
.
.
.
Camby
Magloire
Ratliff
Ilgauskas
Dampier

What about Okur, the $11 million dollar man?

BTW, I think of Duncan as a center even if that is not how he is listed.

 

[F-Dog]

What about Okur, the $11 million dollar man?

Okur is much younger at 24, and he is still rapidly improving his game. You should be comparing him to prospective draft picks as much as to 30-yr-olds.

If Okur were in the draft this year, where do you think he would go?

If Camby keeps it up for the rest of the season I would definately like him as a signing starting somewhere between 5-6M$ for 4-5 years.

The bidding apparently starts at $8m, though:

Camby has a $7.75 million option that would kick in next season only if he met some tough-to-reach statistical plateaus. His agent, Rick Kaplan, has said Camby would opt out regardless, though both Camby and the Nuggets have expressed interest in re-upping at season's end.

I've always liked Camby, so I agree that if he stays healthy, he's worth it.

Amare will be able to guard Duncan at times, so the main problem with Camby at center would be Shaq. I'm not sure how much of a problem Shaq will be three or four years from now, though.

I guess the Suns could still hang on to Jahidi, even if they spend $8m on Camby...

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by F-Dog
Okur is much younger at 24, and he is still rapidly improving his game. You should be comparing him to prospective draft picks as much as to 30-yr-olds.

If Okur were in the draft this year, where do you think he would go?

I've always liked Camby, so I agree that if he stays healthy, he's worth it.

Amare will be able to guard Duncan at times, so the main problem with Camby at center would be Shaq. I'm not sure how much of a problem Shaq will be three or four years from now, though.

I guess the Suns could still hang on to Jahidi, even if they spend $8m on Camby...

Camby would certainly be a big improvement over what the Suns have now. I would feel more comfortable with him if I was sure he was going to be healthy.

 

[elindholm]

I would feel more comfortable with him if I was sure he was going to be healthy.

If his health could be guaranteed, he'd probably fetch a max contract.

 

[Chaplin]

That's the thing. This whole arguement is based on what if, rather than what IS.

And really, the what IS is that Kobe Bryant is a superstar that could help this team immensely--and his presence would not be outweighed by the presence of a center whose statistics are only marginally better than what we have now.

 

[F-Dog]

Originally posted by Chaplin
And really, the what IS is that Kobe Bryant is a superstar that could help this team immensely--and his presence would not be outweighed by the presence of a center whose statistics are only marginally better than what we have now.

I'm not sure what the point is to this argument.


I mean, if Kobe willing to sign with the Suns, the Suns will jump at the opportunity to get him. If nothing else, it would be--by far!--the biggest marketing coup in team history.

Then, everybody will be able to see what kind of impact Kobe has, and you'll be able to settle your differences on the subject--if you can successfully hold a conversation while twenty different PennyPhans try to educate you on the failings of the other 12 members of your team, and about what a useless fat bum Shaq is.


If he doesn't want to sign with the Suns, they're still going to play next year. Why would you want to suck all the hope out of yourself in advance by belittling the team's long-term prospects?


I don't get it.

 

[Chaplin]

The whole arguement recently has been (pretty much) Kobe Bryant vs. a "better" center. That's what I was referring to--sorry that wasn't so clear.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by Chaplin
That's the thing. This whole arguement is based on what if, rather than what IS.

And really, the what IS is that Kobe Bryant is a superstar that could help this team immensely--and his presence would not be outweighed by the presence of a center whose statistics are only marginally better than what we have now.

Is a guy who will command $16 million worth more than a guy who will command $8 million? I would certainly hope so. Will he double the team's chances of winning the championship, I doubt it.

In order to free up enough money to sign Kobe, it will be necessary to unload Marion.

The option of unloading Eisley or White, trading the draft picks, and delaying the signing of Vujanic comes close to freeing up the right amount but I have doubts. Eisley is almost impoosible to move this summer, so White would have to be the one traded. Since the Suns would not be able to replace White with a draft pick, it would mean the Suns would have just Voskuhl and Lampe.

Trading Marion for Kobe would require a multi-team deal because the Lakers don't need someone with Marion's skills. The option of just giving Marion away is hurt by the fact that Marion is having a bad year and the teams with cap space are not in the market for an SF (Denver, Utah, Clippers, and SA). A multi-team trade would be possible, but only if the Lakers cooperate. Otherwise, Denver with more cap space would have an overwhelming advantage.

Trading Marion would only cost another $3 to $4 million a year, so it might not preclude clearing enough space to find a center to replace White.

Can the Suns trade Marion and whatever in a mutli-team trade for Kobe? If Marion is as big a stiff as some of his critics suggest, then you would have to wonder. Extra inducements such as draft picks might help, but any such deal will be after the 2004 draft.

After running through every scenerio I've heard presented, I just find it hard to see a deal being made that gets Kobe here. But maybe I'm wrong and a trade of Marion can be pulled off. I might wonder if the chemistry would be right, but it is probably worth the gamble.

 

[elindholm]

Is a guy who will command $16 million...

LOL. Every time you refer to Bryant's potential salary, you make up a higher number.

In order to free up enough money to sign Kobe, it will be necessary to unload Marion.

Huh?

The discussion has been about the possibility (however remote) of signing Bryant this summer. Marion can't be moved before then because of his BYC status, and he can't be moved afterward without bringing back equal salaries, unless a team with enormous cap space wants him -- and the only one I can think of with that much room is Utah, which already has Kirilenko, so forget it. (You made this same point.)

For the Suns to make a run at Bryant this summer, they would almost certainly have to get rid of either Eisley or White, plus convince Bryant to take a pay cut. But to say that it would be "necessary" to unload Marion is completely false -- in fact, there's virtually no way that it could happen that way this summer. (I'm taking it for granted that the Lakers would have no interest in working a sign-and-trade for Marion.)

If you want to argue against the pursuit of Bryant, at least stick to reality. There's no point inventing reasons to make it look impossible -- heck, it's nearly impossible already, as most posters have acknowledged.

 

[Chaplin]

And in the same vein, I find it very hard to get the kind of center that you are touting. They just don't exist--not for good prices. You don't overpay just so you have a couple points, a couple rebounds and a few block shots more than what you got. I'd hope we'd learned our lesson.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by elindholm
Is a guy who will command $16 million...

LOL. Every time you refer to Bryant's potential salary, you make up a higher number.

And we better not be paying no $8 million bucks to someone who's just a little better than Jake Voskuhl...

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by elindholm
Is a guy who will command $16 million...

LOL. Every time you refer to Bryant's potential salary, you make up a higher number.
[/i]

Right now Kobe is scheduled to make $14.625 million next year if he stays put. Maybe he won't demand an increase, but I'm not being unreasonable in assuming it would be necessary to expect it. Is there any reason to believe he will take a BIG cut?

In order to free up enough money to sign Kobe, it will be necessary to unload Marion.

For the Suns to make a run at Bryant this summer, they would almost certainly have to get rid of either Eisley or White, plus convince Bryant to take a pay cut. But to say that it would be "necessary" to unload Marion is completely false -- in fact, there's virtually no way that it could happen that way this summer. (I'm taking it for granted that the Lakers would have no interest in working a sign-and-trade for Marion.)

If you want to argue against the pursuit of Bryant, at least stick to reality. There's no point inventing reasons to make it look impossible -- heck, it's nearly impossible already, as most posters have acknowledged. [/B]

Let's run the numbers:

Before the draft, the Suns will have committments of $33.885 million. If they have the #10 and #15 draft picks, this will add $1.5 million and $1 million to make a total of $36.385 million. If the Suns get rid of Eisley at $6.375 million, this brings the total down to $30.01 million. (I'm skeptical the he can moved. If they move White, then the remaining salaries would be 500,000 more.)

Most estimates are that the cap will be at $43 million, so the most the Suns could offer would be $13 in the first year. The maximum they could offer would be a total of $100.3 million over six years. A team that can offer $15 million the first year can offer $115 million over the same period.

The Suns CAN get into the same range IF they don't use their draft picks. However, the Suns cannot even talk to Kobe until after the draft.

Will Kobe choose the Suns and take close to a $15 million pay cut? Stranger things have happened, but I am skeptical.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tradiing Marion this summer in a mutli-team deal seems far fetched but it seems more likely than Kobe taking a big salary hit. Maybe I'm wrong, but that is how I cam to my conclusions.

 

[elindholm]

Right now Kobe is scheduled to make $14.625 million next year if he stays put. Maybe he won't demand an increase, but I'm not being unreasonable in assuming it would be necessary to expect it. Is there any reason to believe he will take a BIG cut?

Let's review. I originally said that Bryant would have no choice other than to take a pay cut if he wanted to leave the Lakers, because no one else would be able to offer him an "overmax" contract. However, I was forced to retract this when people with greater knowledge of the CBA pointed out the error.

On the other hand ... who out there can offer Bryant the kind of money you're talking about? Denver? Obviously he's not going there. The Clippers? They have only $1 million less in guaranteed salaries for next season than the Suns do, and that's before the Suns move either White or Eisley, which is presupposed in this discussion.

In other words, it's still true that Bryant will have to take a decent pay cut if he wants to leave the Lakers -- which is, again, presupposed in this discussion. (I've already agreed that it's unlikely Bryant will want to leave; the whole question is, "What if he does?") How much is hard to predict, but there simply won't be any other team that can offer him $15 or $16 million a year. That's the reality.

Will Kobe choose the Suns and take close to a $15 million pay cut? Stranger things have happened, but I am skeptical.

$15 million over six years isn't much to someone making eight figures annually. Have you compared endorsement opportunities, real estate costs, and state income tax rates? You might as well if you're talking about that kind of difference.

The Suns CAN get into the same range IF they don't use their draft picks. However, the Suns cannot even talk to Kobe until after the draft.

It's very likely that the Suns will have to include one of their picks in any deal that moves Eisley or White. But either way we aren't talking about a huge sum of money.

You keep changing the argument. Rather than address the question of whether the Suns should pursue Bryant, you say that he doesn't want to leave the Lakers because he'll want to make sure he gets top dollar. Well, if that's true, the whole question is moot. But it certainly has happened before that top athletes have taken reduced salaries in exchange for a more rewarding sitaution. Does Bryant want to be on his own team, with the chance to be a real leader on a championship contender? Maybe and maybe not -- but if he does, it's up to him to figure out how to balance that against the reduced financial compensation.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Originally posted by George O'Brien
In order to free up enough money to sign Kobe, it will be necessary to unload Marion.
[/B]

I disagree. You need to consider team chemistry as well as money if you are going to sign Kobe.

Marion does not need the ball to be very effective. His defense and rebounding attest to that.

The player that will not be as compatible with Kobe will be JJ. I just can't seem them coexisting very well. You would package JJ and Eisley together if you want to sign JJ. Believe me, if JJ keeps playing like he is, that shouldn't be a problem. A team like Utah would jump on that in a sec.

Its not that I'm all for dumping JJ, its just that if you are getting Kobe, you've got to keep Marion ahead of JJ.

 

[George O'Brien]

If we assume that Kobe will go for a smaller contract, then there are several teams that could compete including Utah, Denver, San Antonio, the Clippers, Portland, and Seattle.

Utah has a rediculous amount of cap capacity. Everyone says he won't go there and they wouldn't have him, but this might change if he is completely exonerated and they offer a bunch more money.

Denver's ability to make a deal depends on how much they offer Camby to return. Without Camby they are at $22.9 million. If they get Camby for $6 million, this would put them at least $1 to $2 million less than the amount Phoenix can offer.

San Antonio seems like a long shot, but they are at $32.6 million if they do not retain Horry and Turkoqlu. Everyone assumes they will go after Manu, but the chance of having Duncan and Kobe on the same team would be something they are likely to consider.

The Clips seem like a long shot because of who their owner. They do not have many options to unload their other players. Wilcox is probably the msot marketable with a salary of $2.2 million.

Portland would still have to clear some salary, but they are unlikely to make a big push until 2005 when Damon Stoudamire's $15.7 million comes off.

Net conclusion, Denver is the biggest threat if Kobe is completely exonerated. They are really a threat if Camby moves. Both Utah and Portland are real threats to take Camby.

In any case, it seems likely that someone will be able to offer more than Phoenix, though perhaps not enough to make money the deciding factor unless Utah comes in heavy.

I would not completely discount the Spurs. Duncan is not Shaq - he passes the ball. I would guess he would get alone better with Tim than with Amare.

 

[elindholm]

The point about San Antonio is well taken. Most gossip columnists are speculating that, if Bryant leaves, it would be so that he could be the team's brightest star -- and that wouldn't happen if he were playing along a two-time league MVP. But if all he really wants is a change of scenery, the Spurs could well be in the running. His motives are a matter of pure speculation.

Denver is virtually impossible, since that's where his alleged assault occurred, and he has already been convicted there in the court of public opinion.

Utah is a small market and Bryant's local endorsement opportunities would be limited. But they will indeed be in a position to offer an enormous sum of money.

The Clippers strike me as unlikely, but I confess I don't have much of a rationale for that.

The bottom line is that, aside from the Lakers, I think the Suns would have as good a chance as anyone, but there are indeed several potential competitors.