hcsilla
ASFN Lifer
Which error? I think that you are correct that no one else would be able to offer him an overmax contract.
Marion & JJ recruiting Camby
- Thread starter Joe Mama
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Which error? I think that you are correct that no one else would be able to offer him an overmax contract.
hcsilla
ASFN Lifer
The cap is 43.8 mil.
Reportedly a solid raise is expectable so 45 mil. is more likely, IMO.
George O'Brien
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It would help if it goes through. It would not change the relative ability of the non-Laker teams to go after him.
elindholm
edited for content
Which error? I think that you are correct that no one else would be able to offer him an overmax contract.
Any team could offer Bryant a raise over last year's salary, provided they had the cap space. That's where I was wrong. I thought that other teams would be able to offer him only the "base max" of $11 million or so. I use "overmax" to mean any amount larger than that.
Any team could offer Bryant a raise over last year's salary, provided they had the cap space. That's where I was wrong. I thought that other teams would be able to offer him only the "base max" of $11 million or so. I use "overmax" to mean any amount larger than that.
As I see it, the team with the best chance for Kobe is probably still the Lakers. The main problem there is that he wouldn't have the leverage to force changes, but he could easily sign another deal with an opt-out two or three years from now, when he'd be in a much better position to make demands of the team.
The Clips are #2, I'm guessing. They should have no problem clearing salary--just non-tender the fight buddies, Dooling and QRich--and Sterling would be thrilled to have Kobe and the profit-making buzz he brings.
If Kobe leaves the Lakers, it will be for the challenge of succeeding on his own, and the Clippers offer the biggest challenge, with the greatest potential reward (in terms of recognition) if he's successful. Also, Sterling would probably be willing to sign the team over to Kobe as de facto President and GM if that's what Kobe demands. It doesn't hurt the Clips chances that they play in the same gym as the Lakers--Kobe can maintain the cocoon he has supposedly developed, and he'll be rubbing his new success in his detractors' faces...
Phoenix is probably #3, because it's the most attractive non-LA destination, there's talent there, and Jerry C will sell himself harder than any of the other owners.
I think Denver took themselves out of the race entirely when the crowd booed Kobe earlier this year--MJ never forgot those kinds of slights, you know.
Denver is also the team that has the most confidence they can get along without Kobe, and Carmelo Anthony seems to have puffed himself up to the point where he might not be able to coexist with such a dominating player. They do have the money to make it happen, though.
I just can't see Kobe in Utah. He'd have a better chance of going to the Eastern Conference, IMO--has any of those teams hoarded cap space for this summer? I mean, aside from Atlanta?
I guess Utah might be the wild card, as a potential sign-and-trade partner for other teams...
San Antonio is another non-starter. They can't even attract regular free agents--possibly because the town isn't much by NBA standards, but more likely because Tim Duncan is a black hole, sucking credit for the team's success away from everybody else. If Kobe wanted some more of that, he could just stay with the Lakers.
The Clips are #2, I'm guessing. They should have no problem clearing salary--just non-tender the fight buddies, Dooling and QRich--and Sterling would be thrilled to have Kobe and the profit-making buzz he brings.
If Kobe leaves the Lakers, it will be for the challenge of succeeding on his own, and the Clippers offer the biggest challenge, with the greatest potential reward (in terms of recognition) if he's successful. Also, Sterling would probably be willing to sign the team over to Kobe as de facto President and GM if that's what Kobe demands. It doesn't hurt the Clips chances that they play in the same gym as the Lakers--Kobe can maintain the cocoon he has supposedly developed, and he'll be rubbing his new success in his detractors' faces...
Phoenix is probably #3, because it's the most attractive non-LA destination, there's talent there, and Jerry C will sell himself harder than any of the other owners.
I think Denver took themselves out of the race entirely when the crowd booed Kobe earlier this year--MJ never forgot those kinds of slights, you know.
Denver is also the team that has the most confidence they can get along without Kobe, and Carmelo Anthony seems to have puffed himself up to the point where he might not be able to coexist with such a dominating player. They do have the money to make it happen, though.I just can't see Kobe in Utah. He'd have a better chance of going to the Eastern Conference, IMO--has any of those teams hoarded cap space for this summer? I mean, aside from Atlanta?
I guess Utah might be the wild card, as a potential sign-and-trade partner for other teams...
San Antonio is another non-starter. They can't even attract regular free agents--possibly because the town isn't much by NBA standards, but more likely because Tim Duncan is a black hole, sucking credit for the team's success away from everybody else. If Kobe wanted some more of that, he could just stay with the Lakers.
Chaplin
Better off silent
Well, duh.
Nobody is arguing that point.
Don't count on it. Regardless of what personal agenda Kobe might have against the Lakers, the Clippers are STILL owned by Donald Sterling, and no matter who is on that team, they will still be the Clippers.
I think Denver took themselves out of the race entirely when the crowd booed Kobe earlier this year--MJ never forgot those kinds of slights, you know.
I just can't see Kobe in Utah. He'd have a better chance of going to the Eastern Conference, IMO--has any of those teams hoarded cap space for this summer? I mean, aside from Atlanta?
I guess Utah might be the wild card, as a potential sign-and-trade partner for other teams...
San Antonio is another non-starter. They can't even attract regular free agents--possibly because the town isn't much by NBA standards, but more likely because Tim Duncan is a black hole, sucking credit for the team's success away from everybody else. If Kobe wanted some more of that, he could just stay with the Lakers.
As for the rest, Denver and Utah might have the money, but Kobe would never play either place. Ever.
Sure, he wants a team where he is the leader and can build on him and be successful. But with Kobe, none of those teams (except maybe SA where he would also be second fiddle) will automatically contend for a championship. If that's what he wants, and knowing his competiteness, it's a good bet, then the Lakers and Phoenix are clearly the best options for him.
And remember, Mitch Kupshak has said unequivocably that Kobe will NOT be signed-and-traded. So it's not even worth talking about.
Not by the Lakers, you mean. Utah would probably be happy to do it, if the price was right.
As I see it, the problem with Phoenix (and Denver) from Kobe's perspective is that there's too much there already. If his new team struggles, Kobe's selfishness will be the immediate and obvious target for critics.
That's what makes the Clippers such a great situation for Kobe. If the team wins, he'll get all the credit, and if the team loses, Donald Sterling gets all the blame. Also, I assume Kobe will be looking for some control over personnel, and the Clips are the only place that will happen--even Phoenix would balk at that point, I'm guessing.
If winning another title next year is so important, Kobe will just stay with the Lakers. Honestly, though, I don't believe that another ring will be worth much to Kobe unless he gets it 'his way'.
Chaplin
Better off silent
There's where we don't agree. Sure, he sometimes has a bad attitude, but I'd like to see where this reputation of "Selfishness" comes from. The guy has a good career assist average, if you take out the first two years of his career, his assist average is above 5 a game. So it can't be selfishness on the court.
I'm not a fan of the guy since he is on the Lakers, but I don't see how you can honestly not want the Suns to at least look at him. By himself, he can win games. That is a proven fact. If that makes him "selfish", then I'd say I guess he's selfish. God knows he's beaten us singlehandedly plenty of times. And nobody in LA complained about it.
Another thing--part of your issue may be with the relationship of him and Shaquille O'Neal, who, IMO, is a horrible teammate and not a very good leader. He's dominate, yes, but he has a ton of other problems to go along with him. So there really is no telling a) if Kobe really honestly cares about having a team built around him with no talent, or b) if he really is selfish or that his attitude is based on a relationship with a guy who he hates taking a backseat to.
And please, just remember, IF Kobe were to come to Phoenix, there would be no question--he would be the #1 guy. Definitely, positively, absolutely. Amare Stoudemire would not be the #1 guy--heck, he isn't the #1 guy right now!
I'm not a fan of the guy since he is on the Lakers, but I don't see how you can honestly not want the Suns to at least look at him. By himself, he can win games. That is a proven fact. If that makes him "selfish", then I'd say I guess he's selfish. God knows he's beaten us singlehandedly plenty of times. And nobody in LA complained about it.
Another thing--part of your issue may be with the relationship of him and Shaquille O'Neal, who, IMO, is a horrible teammate and not a very good leader. He's dominate, yes, but he has a ton of other problems to go along with him. So there really is no telling a) if Kobe really honestly cares about having a team built around him with no talent, or b) if he really is selfish or that his attitude is based on a relationship with a guy who he hates taking a backseat to.
And please, just remember, IF Kobe were to come to Phoenix, there would be no question--he would be the #1 guy. Definitely, positively, absolutely. Amare Stoudemire would not be the #1 guy--heck, he isn't the #1 guy right now!
Weren't you one of the people who was saying how nice it was that Marbury isn't around to dominate the ball anymore? And he was getting eight assists per game.
Anyway, you know as well as I do that Kobe has the rep, whether there's a base to it or not. I like to think of him as self-centered on the court rather than selfish, but I'm sure you will feel the distinction is meaningless.
My issue with Kobe is entirely an aesthetic one. I've never said that the Suns shouldn't pursue him, nor that he wouldn't win games for them. Obviously, he would be the #1 guy in Phoenix if he came over here.
The question from my perspective is whether I would be willing to go back to rooting for the Suns after Kobe leaves.
Look at it this way: if you thought that Elvis was a bad man, and his music had an evil influence on everybody that heard it, why would you want to go see the world's greatest Elvis impersonator?
Anyway, you know as well as I do that Kobe has the rep, whether there's a base to it or not. I like to think of him as self-centered on the court rather than selfish, but I'm sure you will feel the distinction is meaningless.
My issue with Kobe is entirely an aesthetic one. I've never said that the Suns shouldn't pursue him, nor that he wouldn't win games for them. Obviously, he would be the #1 guy in Phoenix if he came over here.
The question from my perspective is whether I would be willing to go back to rooting for the Suns after Kobe leaves.
Look at it this way: if you thought that Elvis was a bad man, and his music had an evil influence on everybody that heard it, why would you want to go see the world's greatest Elvis impersonator?
hcsilla
ASFN Lifer
Not any.
Only teams with so much cap room.
"A free agent does not need to remain with the same team in order to qualify for this 105% exception, although the team that signs him is subject to the same salary cap restrictions as with any other free agent. "
That's why Eric wrote, "if they had the cap space".
Joe Mama
hcsilla
ASFN Lifer
Originally posted by elindholm
That's why Eric wrote, "if they had the cap space".
Come on, hcsilla, your English is better than that!
Well....it is probably not... as you see.
I simply overlooked that part of your post.
scotsman13
Registered User
lets see this year without shaq and malone with kobe leading them the lakers were i believe 1 and 4 or something along those lines. last year when shaq was out the lakers wouldnt have made the playoff with kobe leading the team. if your statement is that kobe can make game winning shoots then sure he can but so can jake, but if you are stating that just by having kobe on your team your team will win game then chaplin you are mistaken history shows that. i personally dont believe that kobe is the answer to our problems here or would even take the suns into the second round of the playoffs if he came. i believe that a good center would a great deal more for this team then kobe ever would be able to do and even more important then a center is time for this team to grow.
Chaplin
Better off silent
That's just not true. Put this same exact team and put Kobe on it. Then take the same team and put, say, Brad Miller on it. Which team do you think is better?
scotsman13
Registered User
i think that the suns with brad miller would be a better team then this same team with kobe. to me there is no question that brad miller would be a better fit then kobe. brad miller wont cause any problems with his teammates he can help run the offense from the high post and wont expect to have the ball at all times. we have seen this team playing better without marbury because they share the ball much better. do you believe that kobe would be any differant then marbury wanting the ball at all times? on top of that any ideas that kobe would bring any extra money to the suns by just having him on their team should be forgotten, mcdonals has give up on him and even if he wins the rape case his image is damaged to the point that he may never be the atraction that he was before the case.
George O'Brien
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Of course it's not equal. Brad Miller is getting $7 million this year that goes to $7.8 million next year.
BTW, I'm not sure that Kobe on the Kings rather than Miller that they would be more successful.
Chaplin
Better off silent
You're right, but I wasn't referring to the money issue--I thought we were discussing this strictly from a basketball standpoint.
And this team is MUCH better with Kobe Bryant than Brad Miller.
Suns_fan69
Official ASFN Lurker
I gotta agree with chap on this one. As much as I dislike Kobe, he would really change the outlook on this team. Marbury needed to dominate the ball to be effective. Kobe would be a lot like JJ in that they don't need to always have the ball to be effective.
Which would put more fear into your heart if you were another team?
1- JJ
2- Kobe
3- Marion
4-Stoudemire
5-Voshkul
or
1-Barbosa
2-JJ
3-Marion
4-Stoudemire
5-Brad Miller
There's no question in my mind. Plus we know Kobe has ice in his veins at the end of games and that is something that is invaluable. You just can't teach it. Admittedly I haven't seen Miller enough to know whether he's the same way but he doesn't have the same reputation that kobe has for it.
Which would put more fear into your heart if you were another team?
1- JJ
2- Kobe
3- Marion
4-Stoudemire
5-Voshkul
or
1-Barbosa
2-JJ
3-Marion
4-Stoudemire
5-Brad Miller
There's no question in my mind. Plus we know Kobe has ice in his veins at the end of games and that is something that is invaluable. You just can't teach it. Admittedly I haven't seen Miller enough to know whether he's the same way but he doesn't have the same reputation that kobe has for it.
There's no doubt Brad Miller is a very good center for the Sacramento Kings. He fits them very well. I wouldn't be so sure that he would be worth all that money here with the Phoenix Suns however. The Sacramento Kings are as good as they are because nearly everyone on their roster is a good shooter. They can all pass the ball.
I honestly go back and forth about Kobe Bryant, but there's little doubt in my mind that he would be worth more at $15 million per season than Brad Miller at $8 million per season.
Joe Mama
I honestly go back and forth about Kobe Bryant, but there's little doubt in my mind that he would be worth more at $15 million per season than Brad Miller at $8 million per season.
Joe Mama
George O'Brien
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This is the same argument. Is a max player more valuable than a guy who makes a bit over the mid cap level. I would certainly hope so. Does having an all-star in the back court look better than a rookie who has started less than a dozen games. Sure.
This is basically a straw man arguement. The real question is whether Kobe is worth giving up any shot at signing a middle class center, at least one first round draft pick, and whatever value White might have next season. A lot depends on how high the draft pick would have to be to move White to clear the cap space.
We have to translate draft picks into potential real players. With the Suns record, possibly very good players: Marion, Stoudemire, and Carbakapa.
Even White has his role. Against the Spurs he shot 3 of 4 and had 4 rebounds in 13 minutes. He is very limited, but he would be missed.
Perhaps if we were sure that Kobe's slump this season was strictly the result of his rape trial, it would be worth it. He's a great talent. But it is not necessarily a sure thing.
thegrahamcrackr
Registered User
The suns have a good draft record for 4 out of 5 positions.
Just because the suns sign Kobe doesn't prevent them from signing a mid level center. That is the reason the MLE was invented. If the suns have a solid team on teh floor, and feel a center would be the last piece, teh Cs would pay for that. I think that has been proven enough.
Just because the suns sign Kobe doesn't prevent them from signing a mid level center. That is the reason the MLE was invented. If the suns have a solid team on teh floor, and feel a center would be the last piece, teh Cs would pay for that. I think that has been proven enough.
Chaplin
Better off silent
Originally posted by thegrahamcrackr
The suns have a good draft record for 4 out of 5 positions.
Just because the suns sign Kobe doesn't prevent them from signing a mid level center. That is the reason the MLE was invented. If the suns have a solid team on teh floor, and feel a center would be the last piece, teh Cs would pay for that. I think that has been proven enough.
Good point.
Most people are convinced that there is no way we'll be able to improve the Phoenix Suns if we sign Kobe Bryant. And that just isn't true.
I'm actually excited to see how Little Jake continues over the rest of the season. IMO, these past few games are not flukes for him, and he can continue this high level of play if he truly wants to. And if he does, coupled with Jahidi's bruising play, how vital does acquiring a "middle tier", i.e. average, center become?
This is from a poster on another Phoenix Suns message board. We don't know this guy from Adam, so take it with a grain of salt.
Talked with my insider source in Phoenix last night. He says the Suns are going to make a full court press next summer to dump Eisley and White's contracts on the Bobcats for cash and picks, possibly even NY's unprotected pick. His comment "Guys in the organization know you can't be a great team without an unstoppable stud who can carry your whole team in the fourth. Who gives a rat's a$$ if you give up a mid 1st round pick or two if it gets you a Kobe Bryant or Tracy McGrady caliber player.... Joe Johnson may be good, but he's not either of them and his recent play is no guarantee of future success."
Joe Mama
Talked with my insider source in Phoenix last night. He says the Suns are going to make a full court press next summer to dump Eisley and White's contracts on the Bobcats for cash and picks, possibly even NY's unprotected pick. His comment "Guys in the organization know you can't be a great team without an unstoppable stud who can carry your whole team in the fourth. Who gives a rat's a$$ if you give up a mid 1st round pick or two if it gets you a Kobe Bryant or Tracy McGrady caliber player.... Joe Johnson may be good, but he's not either of them and his recent play is no guarantee of future success."
Joe Mama
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