Marquese Chriss

[Suns_fan69]

From Zach Lowe's article today (http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/21831824/zach-lowe-10-things-like-including-all-star-draft-nba)

7. Marquese Chriss, just not getting it
It's too early to give up on Chriss. Let me repeat that for ornery Phoenix fans: It's too early to give up on him.

Still: Chriss' total lack of improvement in Year 2 in almost every facet means his journey to competence will be a long one, and that his peak may not be as high as Phoenix hoped when they coughed up a ton of assets (two first-round picks, plus the rights to Bogdan Bogdanovic and a future second-round pick) to move up and draft him.

Chriss has averaged just 19 minutes in his past 17 games, and he's shooting only 37.5 percent in that span -- including 5-of-33 from deep. He is a young and developing player losing minutes on a young and developing team -- not great, Bob (Sarver). At least he's losing some of them to Dragan Bender, the guy Phoenix selected four spots ahead of Chriss. The Suns bet a ton on those two guys. They're babies, but it's hard to find any league executive who would predict either to make an All-Star team. (I'd agree falling short is the most likely outcome right now.)

It's just unclear what Chriss can do -- or will be able to do -- on offense. He's not a 3-point shooter yet. He doesn't post up. He can't pass, or do anything off the dribble when defenders rush out at him. The only thing he can do: set picks and roll down the lane for dunks, usually the province of centers.

But Chriss has told me prefers playing power forward, and he doesn't defend or rebound well enough to anchor a defense. Chriss just hasn't shown much feel on that end. He (usually) tries, but he's a beat late reading the game, and he's in the middle of a lot of Phoenix's worst blunders -- botched switches, miscommunications, and other Keystone Kops moments:

Pairing Chriss and Bender has some potential on offense; Chriss would knife down the interior with Bender spacing the floor around the arc. But when will that duo be playable on defense? (They've logged just 33 minutes together, and the Suns have yielded a ghastly 133 points per 100 possessions in that time.)

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Read that and it’s chilling to think our # 4, 5, and 8 picks could all be duds (shudder to think it could be two #4 picks if jj never pans out).

Don Maclean (who I think is an idiot) was going off on the suns during last nights game about whiffing on high draft picks. I mean he kept coming back to the topic over and over again. Granted he was failing to recognize the dearth of talent in the Len draft, but man he kept on it and it was quite depressing. Gotta keep reminding myself of jermaine O’Neal.

 

[Mainstreet]

Read that and it’s chilling to think our # 4, 5, and 8 picks could all be duds (shudder to think it could be two #4 picks if jj never pans out).

Don Maclean (who I think is an idiot) was going off on the suns during last nights game about whiffing on high draft picks. I mean he kept coming back to the topic over and over again. Granted he was failing to recognize the dearth of talent in the Len draft, but man he kept on it and it was quite depressing. Gotta keep reminding myself of jermaine O’Neal.

I think the Suns have gotten into trouble drafting on potential rather than BPA. It can be hard to distinguish between the two without a large sampling of games to evaluate. I remember AzStevenCal talking about Markkanen being a good pick for the Suns early.

Maybe the Suns organization and fans (myself included) are missing what draft choices can do rather than what they might be able to do. I think the Suns need to ask themselves this question.

@AzStevenCal had this observation about Markkanen.

I don't think either one of those guys ever beats Lauri out for minutes. I know there's a difference in opponents (college vs NBA) but to me, Markkanen is already a better and more developed player than either Bender or Chriss.

Out of curiosity I just went back to the college season for both Marquese and Lauri and compared stats; for whatever it's worth, about the only category where Chriss truly wins is in blocks and to a lesser extent, DBPM. Markkanen is quite a bit above him in most of the other categories and where he doesn't have a significant lead, the difference (either way) is minimal.

http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/forum/threads/lauri-markkanen.250455/page-12#post-3513820

 

[iRobot]

Marvin Bagley. Trade Chriss and some picks to get back into the Top 10ish range and grab a C or a PG.

 

[AsUpRoDiGy]

Saw that, and then this article on JJ...ugh!

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2017/12/21/16805300/josh-jackson-phoenix-suns-struggles

Jackson is one of the most inefficient players in the NBA, and the biggest problem has been his shooting. There isn’t one positive he can build on from his first few months. According to the tracking numbers at Synergy Sports, he’s below the 30th percentile in players leaguewide in eight different offensive categories. He is shooting 37.7 percent from the field, 22.5 percent from 3, and 57 percent from the free throw line. Most poor shooters struggle with confidence, but that has not been an issue for Jackson. The Suns have given him a lot of freedom on offense, and he hasn’t done much with it. There are 107 players in the NBA with usage rates higher than 20, the benchmark of a player with a major role in the offense. Jackson ranks last in true shooting percentage (43.7) of the group.

 

[SirStefan32]

I think the Suns have gotten into trouble drafting on potential rather than BPA. It can be hard to distinguish between the two without a large sampling of games to evaluate. I remember AzStevenCal talking about Markkanen being a good pick for the Suns early.

Maybe the Suns organization and fans (myself included) are missing what draft choices can do rather than what they might be able to do. I think the Suns need to ask themselves this question.

@AzStevenCal had this observation about Markkanen.



http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/forum/threads/lauri-markkanen.250455/page-12#post-3513820

Eric has made a similar point recently. It had nothing to with Markkannen, but Tatum vs. Jackson discussion, I think. There is definitely something to that. That said, I am looking at the 2016 draft, and I don't see a whole lot of better choices after bender and/or Chriss.
Murray and Hield, probably, but the Suns had Booker and Bledsoe on the roster, along with Knight (I believe), so not sure where those two would have gotten their playing time. There is Sabonis, who is clearly better than either of the Suns bigs from that draft, but that's about it. Brogdon was available when the Suns picked Ulis, but Ulis was a better college player, I think.

They nailed it in 2015 and 2014. 2013 draft was interesting- Gobert and Giannis are much better, but a lot of teams passed on those two. Steven Adams was available, as was Noel, McCollom, and KCP. I know that Rudy, Noel, and Giannis were all considered long-term projects with high potential, but I don't remember much about the others.

My conclusion is that it's easier to criticize draft picks than it is to make the right ones.

 

[SirStefan32]

Saw that, and then this article on JJ...ugh!

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2017/12/21/16805300/josh-jackson-phoenix-suns-struggles

In all fairness, we all knew Jackson would struggle on offense. I can't imagine this is a surprise to anyone.

 

[Finito]

Yeah im really getting a bad feeling about Bender and I've made up my mind on Chriss he's just god awful and in fact has gotten worse .

Booker, Warren and it looks like Jackson are gonna hit. JJ just seems to have all the athletic tools plus the right work ethic and attitude that Bender and Chriss don't have. Jackson will be alright

They hit on Ulid he is what he is but for a second rounder in today's NBA he was a good pick so I think the draft record is good it just hurts missing on Bender and Chriss.

That being said the players I wanted in that draft were Kriss Dunn and Chriss and Dunn has been god awful and he was thought to be the most NBA ready point guard to come out in a minute.

You look at the 76ers and they missed on Okafor and Noel and while Simmons and Embid show great promise would it surprise anyone if they had a season ending injury tomorrow

 

[Mainstreet]

Eric has made a similar point recently. It had nothing to with Markkannen, but Tatum vs. Jackson discussion, I think. There is definitely something to that. That said, I am looking at the 2016 draft, and I don't see a whole lot of better choices after bender and/or Chriss.
Murray and Hield, probably, but the Suns had Booker and Bledsoe on the roster, along with Knight (I believe), so not sure where those two would have gotten their playing time. There is Sabonis, who is clearly better than either of the Suns bigs from that draft, but that's about it. Brogdon was available when the Suns picked Ulis, but Ulis was a better college player, I think.

They nailed it in 2015 and 2014. 2013 draft was interesting- Gobert and Giannis are much better, but a lot of teams passed on those two. Steven Adams was available, as was Noel, McCollom, and KCP. I know that Rudy, Noel, and Giannis were all considered long-term projects with high potential, but I don't remember much about the others.

My conclusion is that it's easier to criticize draft picks than it is to make the right ones.

I'm trying more to understand the draft than criticize a particular draft.

Teams might be better concentrating what a player does well rather than project their development. In other words, draft a player on what they can do.

For example, shooting, passing, free throw percentage, rebounding, height and even athleticism may translate to the NBA. However, the more boxes that can be checked, the better.

If the Suns draft a draft a center at least make sure they are mobile, tough, can rebound and have an offensive game they can develop.

Although Bender and Chriss are power forwards they are not strong rebounders or shooters.

Having a good basketball IQ is needed for all positions.

 

[Matt L]

Chriss is really not progressing at all. I do think Bender shows some flashes and they should stick with him....since they aren't really competing right now, Bender should be playing at least 25 minutes a game.

 

[Carolinacacti]

One thing you can't teach is hustle. Anthony Bennett on the Northern Arizona Suns has loads of talent but takes to many plays off. I remember when the Morris twins went to Summer league and the suns made them take it to the hole every play. Last summer Chriss sat at the three point line. Coaching killed this kid the first year. I have hope for Chriss but he needs coaching.

 

[Suns_fan69]

The thing I hate most about Chriss is honestly his attitude. If he didn't come across an entitled, petulant brat I'd feel better about his long term prospects but nothing about him makes me believe he'll work to get to his potential.

 

[SirStefan32]

The thing I hate most about Chriss is honestly his attitude. If he didn't come across an entitled, petulant brat I'd feel better about his long term prospects but nothing about him makes me believe he'll work to get to his potential.

I couldn't agree more.

 

[Raze]

I'm trying more to understand the draft than criticize a particular draft.

Teams might be better concentrating what a player does well rather than project their development. In other words, draft a player on what they can do.

For example, shooting, passing, free throw percentage, rebounding, height and even athleticism may translate to the NBA. However, the more boxes that can be checked, the better.

If the Suns draft a draft a center at least make sure they are mobile, tough, can rebound and have an offensive game they can develop.

Although Bender and Chriss are power forwards they are not strong rebounders or shooters.

Having a good basketball IQ is needed for all positions.

It makes it even tougher for teams to avoid projecting when every single prospect is 18 years old. But your point is valid.

It's actually the reason I had JJ as my top prospect. Not because of what I thought he'd do, but primarily from what I SAW him do. It was plainly evident that he left everything on the floor each and every game. He's an all heart prospect with an incredible mix of size and athleticism. That alone makes him top 5. The HOPE is that he can learn to shoot. But that's just hope, you don't draft guys on hope if you can avoid it.

In contrast, Fultz and Ball showed very little heart in college. Even though they are both just as gifted athletically as Josh, they don't make the most of it.

One thought on Lauri, he's shooting about as expected but rebounding at a much higher clip. I wasn't a huge fan of him as a prospect primarily because of his weakness at rebounding. He appears to be showing his heart by working on it. (7 double-doubles, albeit on a really bad team).

 

[Ronin]

Craig Grialou
@CraigAZSports

Triano, "We believe in Marquese"; Chriss has struggled in recent games but no discussions to send to G-League

 

[SweetD]

I still have hope for Chriss, may need to be put in to a Len type role and told go crash the boards to get your points. I just think Bender and Chris are going to be projects to learn the game.

 

[Finito]

Craig Grialou
@CraigAZSports

Triano, "We believe in Marquese"; Chriss has struggled in recent games but no discussions to send to G-League

I think it's what he needs

 

[Hoop Head]

Chriss is not playing like a lottery pick and shouldn't be starting. The only reason he is still starting has to do with the lack of talent we have in the front court. If Big Sauce were healthy I think we would have seen him start at PF. I'm a little surprised Triano hasn't given Dudley that job temporarily but with the bench playing so well together over the last 4 games I think he doesn't want to mess with what's working. When Booker returns to the lineup though I think we'll see the rotations get shuffled some and hopefully that will involve Chriss being assigned to the G-League for a week or two.

Bender has played best in his current role off the bench, with the 2nd unit, and since he reacted so poorly when he was given the starting spot I don't think Triano is anxious to try that again. Bender is a big part of that 2nd unit, spacing the floor and helping Len on defense while Len covers the paint. Something needs to be done to get Chriss going because continually running him out there as the starting where he's not producing isn't helping him or the team. Let him build confidence down in the G-League for a little bit. If he can't produce there then that means there is more going on than we know about and we should be worried he's a bust. He's definitely lacking confidence in his playing though, on top of making stupid mistakes, fouling too much, taking plays off defensively, and not boxing out at all for rebounds.

 

[SirStefan32]

Frankly, both Bender and Len need to start. Canaan as well, most likely. If it takes a while for the rotation to work itself out, who cares? Losing a few games is literally the worst case scenario. While I am not a tanker, a couple of extra losses are not going to be a big deal.

 

[hcsilla]

That being said the players I wanted in that draft were Kriss Dunn and Chriss and Dunn has been god awful and he was thought to be the most NBA ready point guard to come out in a minute.

And Dunn came alive and he is playing fantastic basketball (on both ends of the court) recently for the Bulls.

 

[Haunting]

Frankly, both Bender and Len need to start. Canaan as well, most likely. If it takes a while for the rotation to work itself out, who cares? Losing a few games is literally the worst case scenario. While I am not a tanker, a couple of extra losses are not going to be a big deal.

Bender is one of the worst players in the entire league and should never start. The only thing Bender provides is sometimes making 3s. He can't do anything else.

You honestly disgust me with your populist NBA opinions. It would be one thing if you were at least consistent about it but you are not. For years you railed against Amare and campaigned to get rid off him because he did not rebound according to you yet you are apparently totally fine with the inch for inch worst rebounder in the history of the NBA.

Also Zach Lowe has not been a good NBA journalist in a decade. Zach Lowe maybe watched 5 Suns game this calendar year, he is consistently ill-informed on the Suns and trashes Devin Booker too.

Chriss in fact has improved his assist rate, block rate, rebounding rate, defensive rating, defensive box plus minus etc

Can't say the same about Bender who only raised his shooting percentage so far which was impossible not to since he was dead last in TS% last year tied with Wesley Johnson.

Go and find me 6'10 20year olds that average 2+ apg per 36 with only 15% usage, you won't.

Chriss ranks ~30th among big man in assist rate. Worrying about his assists is a joke, he is considerably better passer than Bender.

Chriss also leads the Suns in Defensive Rating and defensive box plus minus.

Learn to think for yourselves, all the stats are openly available on the internet. You can just look it up before parroting stupid talking points, blatant lies and misinformation.

 

[Haunting]

In contrast, Fultz and Ball showed very little heart in college. Even though they are both just as gifted athletically as Josh, they don't make the most of it.

One thought on Lauri, he's shooting about as expected but rebounding at a much higher clip. I wasn't a huge fan of him as a prospect primarily because of his weakness at rebounding. He appears to be showing his heart by working on it. (7 double-doubles, albeit on a really bad team).

Markkanen is shooting 41% from the Field and 32% from 3!

Chriss shot 44% and 35% from 3 as a rookie. It is clear that Chriss is the biggest loser from the lack of PG play that the Suns have.

Their rebounding% is close to within a percent.

See my point, verify what you write. You are still blinded by Lauris first 10 games.

 

[Haunting]

Although Bender and Chriss are power forwards they are not strong rebounders or shooters.

Having a good basketball IQ is needed for all positions.

The only reason why people claim Bender has a basketball IQ is because he is a white Euro player. It is 100% based on prejudice.

No stats can possibly support that argument whatsoever.


Bender has a 6% assist rate and 8% rebounding rate. That is god awful. And a 15.5% Turnover rate.

You must be registered for see images attach

It is laughable how the supposed IQ player is a worse passer and turns the ball over more than someone who supposedly has the lowest basketball IQ in the league.

How do you explain that?

 

[SirStefan32]

The only reason why people claim Bender has a basketball IQ is because he is a white Euro player. It is 100% based on prejudice.

No stats can possibly support that argument whatsoever.


Bender has a 6% assist rate and 8% rebounding rate. That is god awful. And a 15.5% Turnover rate.

You must be registered for see images attach

It is laughable how the supposed IQ player is a worse passer and turns the ball over more than someone who supposedly has the lowest basketball IQ in the league.

How do you explain that?

Can someone ban Slin again, please? Now we are all apparently racists because we think a white guy is smart. This board was enjoyable for months after he got banned, and now he is back under a different name.

 

[SirStefan32]

Bender is one of the worst players in the entire league and should never start. The only thing Bender provides is sometimes making 3s. He can't do anything else.

You honestly disgust me with your populist NBA opinions. It would be one thing if you were at least consistent about it but you are not. For years you railed against Amare and campaigned to get rid off him because he did not rebound according to you yet you are apparently totally fine with the inch for inch worst rebounder in the history of the NBA.

Also Zach Lowe has not been a good NBA journalist in a decade. Zach Lowe maybe watched 5 Suns game this calendar year, he is consistently ill-informed on the Suns and trashes Devin Booker too.

Chriss in fact has improved his assist rate, block rate, rebounding rate, defensive rating, defensive box plus minus etc

Can't say the same about Bender who only raised his shooting percentage so far which was impossible not to since he was dead last in TS% last year tied with Wesley Johnson.

Go and find me 6'10 20year olds that average 2+ apg per 36 with only 15% usage, you won't.

Chriss ranks ~30th among big man in assist rate. Worrying about his assists is a joke, he is considerably better passer than Bender.

Chriss also leads the Suns in Defensive Rating and defensive box plus minus.

Learn to think for yourselves, all the stats are openly available on the internet. You can just look it up before parroting stupid talking points, blatant lies and misinformation.

Slin,

You obviously haven't seen a single game. Now go hug your Chriss teddy bear and look at your Chriss poster, and leave us on this board alone so we can have civilized discussions.