McCown's Had his shot...bench him

[ajcardfan]

At least somebody is watching the games.

This is the #1 problem with McCown as a QB.

And I'll bet the DC's on the teams we play know it as well.

Yep, anytime he has to throw over a defender to get the ball to the WR he misses by a good 4 or 5 feet. All he can really do in that situation is throw a "jump ball" type of pass.

 

[Stout]

The Josh bashers never change and call it like they see it, with jaded eyes...If the multiple blitzs were picked up then Josh would have time to throw the ball...this is the OLINEs job and the RB. If they are bringing more than can be blocked then that would be on the Qb. Watch the tape...that happened only once in the first half and twice in the 2nd half where there were more blitzers than blockers....Josh was getting beat down because the line could not hold at the point of attack and was getting pushed back and then not sustaining there block....and Josh would get smacked. If you want to feel cheated...feel cheated because the OLINE has stolen there paychecks this entire season. The Qbs that have been under center have been doing there job. The line has not allowed protection or running game to ease the pressure. Then the Dline does not stop the run and game over. That is where you should feel cheated.

Rats, no doubt the O-line bears the majority of the brunt in failing to pick up the blitz. But we already know that. Nobody is arguing that the O-line is truly doing their jobs. We keep talking about the QB because there is no consensus.

Given that the blitz IS coming in unchecked, we must rely on our QB to handle the situation properly. McCown doesn't. It's that simple. He either freezes or panics. I'm not sure which it is, but whichever, it simply kills us.

 

[Stout]

I see, giving himself up waiting for the reveiver to come open across the middle is a bad thing in your book.

And when/if Warner stands in there and takes the hit to get the first you will blast him too I hope.


Josh makes some bad decisions, he makes some bad throws. However I don't see him as our biggest problem. He has shown he can play well enough to win some games. I don't think today was one of his worst efforts.

Like I said considering the pressure he was under and both from the rush and how many points his own defense was giving up I wasn't that disappointed in Josh today. He simply wasn't THAT bad.


I think you are as myopic about trashing Josh as you complain about other people are for defending him.

No, giving it up for a play is not a bad thing. Props to his toughness-never questioned that. And yes, if Warner holds the ball too long and takes a stupid sack, I'll call him for it. Not sure how much that happened earlier in the year, because I couldn't watch the games. That play, though, was holding the ball FAR too long. That play ends up badly 99 times out of 100, ending up with a pick, a fumble, a sack, etc. I'd MUCH rather see him throw it away if nobody is open before a catastrophe happens, thank you much. He made the play and we got a first. I cheered and I was pleased, but I knew McCown had dodged a bullet. He tried to do the same thing again later and threw an INT returned for a TD.

See, this is the statement that from many Cards fans truly frightens me...He has shown he can play well enough to win some games. I don't think today was one of his worst efforts. If that's all we can ever expect out of our QB, we might as well continually play backup QBs, because you just described a backup QB.

And yes, he simply WAS that bad. As bad as our defense played, and as bad as our line was, if Josh doesn't wilt, we stay in the ball game. Oh well.

 

[Chaz]

No, giving it up for a play is not a bad thing. Props to his toughness-never questioned that. And yes, if Warner holds the ball too long and takes a stupid sack, I'll call him for it. Not sure how much that happened earlier in the year, because I couldn't watch the games. That play, though, was holding the ball FAR too long. That play ends up badly 99 times out of 100, ending up with a pick, a fumble, a sack, etc. I'd MUCH rather see him throw it away if nobody is open before a catastrophe happens, thank you much. He made the play and we got a first. I cheered and I was pleased, but I knew McCown had dodged a bullet. He tried to do the same thing again later and threw an INT returned for a TD.

See, this is the statement that from many Cards fans truly frightens me...He has shown he can play well enough to win some games. I don't think today was one of his worst efforts. If that's all we can ever expect out of our QB, we might as well continually play backup QBs, because you just described a backup QB.

And yes, he simply WAS that bad. As bad as our defense played, and as bad as our line was, if Josh doesn't wilt, we stay in the ball game. Oh well.

OK Stout, then you tell me who do we bench him for?

 

[Stout]

I think you are as myopic about trashing Josh as you complain about other people are for defending him.

Then why did I cheer him after the 9ers game? Then why did I continually say he should start? Why was I happy he started last week when Warner was healthy, and why was I happy he got another start yesterday when he had a bad game last week? People just don't understand. Give people that bash Josh good QB play, and we'll shut up about it, or even sing his praises. When he plays like crap, we'll say so. Well, he played like doggy doo. And I'm willing to say so. I'm unwilling to put up with below-average QB play. I guess that makes me unreasonable.

 

[Stout]

OK Stout, then you tell me who do we bench him for?

Warner. From what I understand, Warner wasn't stinking the joint up, and Josh has shown us AGAIN this year that he isn't the answer. Or Navarre. And we can always throw Josh in again to the wolves if necessary. This season is basically tanked. We don't have our QB of the future, whom we still desperately need, and so we'll just be treading water at best at the QB position. Still, if the guy ain't getting it done, as McCown isn't, and if he isn't the QB for next year, which he isn't, then give one of the other guys a shot.

 

[MadCardDisease]

I thought that McCown looked good for the first Quarter and a half. I was like, wow maybe I was wrong about McCown needing a few more years to mature into an effective QB. Then he quickly reverted back to his missing wide open WRs.

Still Josh had an OK game and given the circumstances I can't place much of the loss on his shoulders. No the blame for that loss goes straight on the defense.

How in the world can you make MB III look like an all pro behind a make shift O-Line. The Cardinal defense should be embarassed! What a pathetic effort that was!

 

[ajcardfan]

No the blame for that loss goes straight on the defense.

How in the world can you make MB III look like an all pro behind a make shift O-Line. The Cardinal defense should be embarassed! What a pathetic effort that was!

I agree.

I think a big problem with this defense is that they think too highly of themselves. They expect to just dominate and I think that effects how they prepare and adjust during games. When it goes bad, they have a hard time getting back on track because I think they are honestly surprised they are getting rolled on.

From now on, we should see this coming. They came off a good game against the Titans to play a team they whipped in the preseason. I think we can expect them to lay an egg in similar situations.

 

[jefftheshark]

I thought that McCown looked good for the first Quarter and a half. I was like, wow maybe I was wrong about McCown needing a few more years to mature into an effective QB. Then he quickly reverted back to his missing wide open WRs.

I rewatched the game last night and you are correct. Somewhere between 6 and 7 minutes left in the second quarter it was like someone threw a switch in McCown's head. Every pass from that point, until the end of the half, was either over the reciever's head, or at their feet. I didn't notice a change in the o-line, they are at least consistantly poor, but it is easy to see the change in McCown's play.

Someone last week said that McCown is a coach killer, and I think they are probably correct. He certainly is a fan killer.

The Shark

The Shark

 

[Russ Smith]

Hey, I was going to say Helen

No harm meant, man. I'm just aghast at the lack of seeing the obvious on this board. His 'standing in and making a play', if you're refering to that early hit-and-completion, was a perfect representation of his failure as a QB. A completion a failure? Not the play, but the leadup. He's being blitzed. He sees it, or else he's a complete putz, because it's coming right down the pipe. He waits. And waits. Does nothing. Waits. Oh, yeah, NOW I'm getting hit...duh, gee, I guess I'd better try something. Hope it ain't intercepted. Oh, cool, he caught it. Waited way too long and chucked it up on a wing and a prayer. Blind luck. Same with his INT returned for a TD. Maybe if he threw it right away, before the blitz got there, he might just have scored a TD for the good guys. Instead of standing in cememt for several seconds.

Mentioned this before but Shannon Sharpe and Phil Simms were mocking Mccown in the postgame highlights on CBS for this very thing. They kept showing blitzes right up the middle and then Simms said "hello, I'm blitzing, hello here I come" .

I agree Josh doesn't see the field and doesn't see blitzes, and he can't throw the touch passes. Moore and Bankston both commented at the half that McCown consistently throws high early in games and needs to get past that. I remember when Jay Schroeder was coming in with the Raiders he was identical to Josh, lot of physical talent, strong arm, and it took him half the game to calm down and stop overthrowing his receivers.

 

[PJ1]

Mentioned this before but Shannon Sharpe and Phil Simms were mocking Mccown in the postgame highlights on CBS for this very thing. They kept showing blitzes right up the middle and then Simms said "hello, I'm blitzing, hello here I come" .

I agree Josh doesn't see the field and doesn't see blitzes, and he can't throw the touch passes. Moore and Bankston both commented at the half that McCown consistently throws high early in games and needs to get past that. I remember when Jay Schroeder was coming in with the Raiders he was identical to Josh, lot of physical talent, strong arm, and it took him half the game to calm down and stop overthrowing his receivers.

But in this game he started out throwing well. All of the sudden he wasn't close to the receivers and he never got it back. People were definately open but he couldn't even dump the ball off accurately.

 

[Stout]

I thought that McCown looked good for the first Quarter and a half. I was like, wow maybe I was wrong about McCown needing a few more years to mature into an effective QB. Then he quickly reverted back to his missing wide open WRs.

Still Josh had an OK game and given the circumstances I can't place much of the loss on his shoulders. No the blame for that loss goes straight on the defense.

How in the world can you make MB III look like an all pro behind a make shift O-Line. The Cardinal defense should be embarassed! What a pathetic effort that was!

From MaoTosiFanClub:

2nd quarter - Defense causes a three and out after we tied the game at 10-10.

1st-10 J. Arrington rushed to the left for 2 yard gain
2nd-8 J. McCown incomplete pass to the right
3rd-8 J. McCown incomplete pass to the right
4th-8 S. Player punt, no return

2nd quarter - Next series, Dallas up 17-10. Cards still very much in game

1st-10 A. Boldin rushed to the right for no gain
2nd-10 J. McCown incomplete pass to the right
3rd-10 J. McCown incomplete pass to the right
4th-10 S. Player punt

3rd quarter - Dallas leads 24-10 and defense creates turnover in Cowboy territory

1st-10 M. Shipp rushed to the left for 6 yard gain
2nd-4 M. Shipp rushed to the right for 3 yard gain
3rd-1 J. McCown rushed to the right for no gain
4th-1 N. Rackers kicked a 47-yard field goal

4th quarter - Down two touchdows with an entire quarter to play, defense causes a three and out

1st-10 A. Henry intercepted J. McCown for 58 yard touchdown

Our defense certainly did not play well (or even mediocre for that matter) but the offense had opportunities to opush the game in a new direction. Both sides of the ball failed miserably and to put the loss solely on the defense is pretty weak.

Yeah, the D was bad, but do you STILL want to exonerate McCown?

 

[MadCardDisease]

From MaoTosiFanClub:

Yeah, the D was bad, but do you STILL want to exonerate McCown?

Nope, I think McCown looked horrible and should be benched. Clearly he still hasn't got it mentally. Just was saying he looked good in the first quarter.

 

[Stout]

Nope, I think McCown looked horrible and should be benched. Clearly he still hasn't got it mentally. Just was saying he looked good in the first quarter.

Groovy. He looked good in part in the first. Still not that great, but nothing benchworthy at that point. The rest of the game, as we agree, is a different story.

 

[earthsci]

2nd quarter - Defense causes a three and out after we tied the game at 10-10.

1st-10 J. Arrington rushed to the left for 2 yard gain
2nd-8 J. McCown incomplete pass to the right
3rd-8 J. McCown incomplete pass to the right
4th-8 S. Player punt, no return

2nd quarter - Next series, Dallas up 17-10. Cards still very much in game.

That's where the game was lost. If we had put points on the board after the three and out the defense would have played with alot more intensity.

 

[Rats]

From MaoTosiFanClub:

2nd quarter - Defense causes a three and out after we tied the game at 10-10.

1st-10 J. Arrington rushed to the left for 2 yard gain
2nd-8 J. McCown incomplete pass to the right
3rd-8 J. McCown incomplete pass to the right
4th-8 S. Player punt, no return

2nd quarter - Next series, Dallas up 17-10. Cards still very much in game

1st-10 A. Boldin rushed to the right for no gain
2nd-10 J. McCown incomplete pass to the right
3rd-10 J. McCown incomplete pass to the right
4th-10 S. Player punt

3rd quarter - Dallas leads 24-10 and defense creates turnover in Cowboy territory

1st-10 M. Shipp rushed to the left for 6 yard gain
2nd-4 M. Shipp rushed to the right for 3 yard gain
3rd-1 J. McCown rushed to the right for no gain
4th-1 N. Rackers kicked a 47-yard field goal

4th quarter - Down two touchdows with an entire quarter to play, defense causes a three and out

1st-10 A. Henry intercepted J. McCown for 58 yard touchdown

Our defense certainly did not play well (or even mediocre for that matter) but the offense had opportunities to opush the game in a new direction. Both sides of the ball failed miserably and to put the loss solely on the defense is pretty weak.

Yeah, the D was bad, but do you STILL want to exonerate McCown?

You and Mao keep quoting this stat line as if it tells the entire picture. On the plays where Josh had little pressure he is to blame for not hitting his receivers. However this stat line does not say how much pressure he was under when these incompletions were thrown. I know for a certainty that the int for a touchdown that you have cited was caused because Bigs man pushed him back into McCown and had his hand in his grill pulling him sideways when he threw it. I think everyone saw how the Qb was abused yesterday. No qb would have been successful behind that kind of pressure. Maybe some had there expectations to high for that game. I didn't and felt it was a long shot to win or even do well in dallas. I wanted us to do well but that is about it.

 

[MadCardDisease]

You and Mao keep quoting this stat line as if it tells the entire picture. On the plays where Josh had little pressure he is to blame for not hitting his receivers. However this stat line does not say how much pressure he was under when these incompletions were thrown. I know for a certainty that the int for a touchdown that you have cited was caused because Bigs man pushed him back into McCown and had his hand in his grill pulling him sideways when he threw it. I think everyone saw how the Qb was abused yesterday. No qb would have been successful behind that kind of pressure. Maybe some had there expectations to high for that game. I didn't and felt it was a long shot to win or even do well in dallas. I wanted us to do well but that is about it.

Everyone keeps saying that No QB would be sucessful behind this O-Line. However it wasn't like McCown was running for his life on every play. He did have time to throw the ball and on many of those plays he threw the ball high, threw the ball out of bounds, threw the ball in the grass, didn't lead the receiver enough, or made poor decisions. When a play develops and he has time to make the play Josh isn't taking advantage of it. That's my problem with him right now.

 

[CaptTurbo]

I would bench McCown based on all of last year. You cant just base it on yesterdays game as we had no real chance to win.

 

[Stout]

You and Mao keep quoting this stat line as if it tells the entire picture. On the plays where Josh had little pressure he is to blame for not hitting his receivers. However this stat line does not say how much pressure he was under when these incompletions were thrown. I know for a certainty that the int for a touchdown that you have cited was caused because Bigs man pushed him back into McCown and had his hand in his grill pulling him sideways when he threw it. I think everyone saw how the Qb was abused yesterday. No qb would have been successful behind that kind of pressure. Maybe some had there expectations to high for that game. I didn't and felt it was a long shot to win or even do well in dallas. I wanted us to do well but that is about it.

So why did he throw it? If you see the blitz, get rid of it before it gets there. You can't always do so, but McCown failed to do so consistently, and has done so for eons. If the blitz is right there and you can't make the pass, then take the sack. He DEFINITELY takes blame for the INT returned for a touchdown because he lobbed up the pass. Yeah, the line gets blame for blowing it, but he gets blame for throwing it.

 

[Rats]

So why did he throw it? If you see the blitz, get rid of it before it gets there. You can't always do so, but McCown failed to do so consistently, and has done so for eons. If the blitz is right there and you can't make the pass, then take the sack. He DEFINITELY takes blame for the INT returned for a touchdown because he lobbed up the pass. Yeah, the line gets blame for blowing it, but he gets blame for throwing it.

I will submit that this is proof of a defeatist attitude. Take a sack rather than trying to make something happen downfield when you are down by Two scores late in the game? Maybe if it is early in the 2nd do you take the sack but not in the 4th qt down by Two scores. That is madness. Had Big gave Josh another second the ball would have been thrown out and led Q for a gain. Instead the DE grabbed Josh as he was throwing it and pulled him to the left making the ball go short to the Cb. This is completely on the Oline..no two ways about it. I have watched it now 5 times.

 

[Russ Smith]

I will submit that this is proof of a defeatist attitude. Take a sack rather than trying to make something happen downfield when you are down by Two scores late in the game? Maybe if it is early in the 2nd do you take the sack but not in the 4th qt down by Two scores. That is madness. Had Big gave Josh another second the ball would have been thrown out and led Q for a gain. Instead the DE grabbed Josh as he was throwing it and pulled him to the left making the ball go short to the Cb. This is completely on the Oline..no two ways about it. I have watched it now 5 times.

Well the counter is it was first down so throwing it away safely or taking the sack means we get 2 more downs, maybe 3 given the score, but throwing it into coverage means they get the ball?

There's no question Josh was under a lot of heat on that throw and that Ware forced the pick.

Josh didn't lose the game but we're seeing the trend here, lights up the worst secondary in the NFL(SF), lights up a decimated Panther secondary, struggles with Titans and now struggles with Cowboys. If you read the game day stories today in the SJ Mercury they mention Collins had 3 TD passes and then say "but the Titans start 2 rookie CB's so you should expect to get 2-3 TD passes against them". Remember last week we were all saying what a good defense the Titans have?

I'd keep starting him we have to see him against good teams to see if he can start to play better against them, I just think we're getting close to the time when you can safely say start Josh, start JJ, start, Blackstock etc, see what we have.

 

[Snakester]

Josh can do no wrong! If he walked into your house and whizzed on your carpet, you'd frickin' compliment him on his accuracy!

Now that's funny!

 

[Rats]

Another turningpoint in the game that had a momentem change was when the Cards got the ball after the Cowboys td at 17-10...we run a lame reverse to Q, and then Josh with Wakefields man pushing him into him dumps it short to Shipp. Then Josh wildly calls a play change at the line of scrimmage and throws to a spot that he thought Q would be. Q didn't get the call and we turn it over with 2minutes to go in the half. Cowboys take it down the field and we are down by two TDs at half instead of 7pts. The play calling was really bad on this series even with us taking a time out to get it right. All we had to do was keep the ball till half and we were in the game. But that did not happen.

 

[conraddobler]

Couple points I'd like to make.

If you watch the tape, Josh took a massive hit while going out of bounds, the commentators mention that it was a guy he played college ball with. It was dead on helmet to helmet it was awful and he got back up really woozy.

The hit knocked him goofy, if you watch after that hit I seriously don't think he was right after it.

That hit came on the series after the touchdown, so some of his decsion making can certainly be attributed to having gotten mashed.

Look I want a new QB next year, I'm not trying to make excuses for Josh, I don't care about him anymore because frankly I have my own reservations but why continually knock the guy?

He's doing the best he can, he's not going to be our QB next year I'd almost bank on that, DG dosen't like him, I understand why and it's DG's fault that we even have to watch him play, he talked him up.

In the interest of fairness though the trashing of him is really over the top, there are plenty of people starting who are contributing more to losses than Josh is.

The coaches aren't earning their paychecks eithier in the off season or on game days.

I don't honestly care who they play from here on out, play Navarre for all I care because no one is going to excell with this set of players.

 

[MadCardDisease]

Look I want a new QB next year, I'm not trying to make excuses for Josh, I don't care about him anymore because frankly I have my own reservations but why continually knock the guy?

He's doing the best he can, he's not going to be our QB next year I'd almost bank on that, DG dosen't like him, I understand why and it's DG's fault that we even have to watch him play, he talked him up.

In the interest of fairness though the trashing of him is really over the top, there are plenty of people starting who are contributing more to losses than Josh is.

I don't think anyone is trashing Josh. I give the kid a lot of credit for hanging in there and taking some serious hits. He has a ton of heart and I really would love to have him back again next year as the back-up. Part of me still believes that he just needs more time to learn the system and become more comfortable. I just believe that he isn't ready for the starting job yet.