McCown's Had his shot...bench him

[Russ Smith]

Couple points I'd like to make.

If you watch the tape, Josh took a massive hit while going out of bounds, the commentators mention that it was a guy he played college ball with. It was dead on helmet to helmet it was awful and he got back up really woozy.

The hit knocked him goofy, if you watch after that hit I seriously don't think he was right after it.

That hit came on the series after the touchdown, so some of his decsion making can certainly be attributed to having gotten mashed.

Can anybody find exactly when the hit happened? I've seen the replay it was a brutal hit by Keith Davis his teammate in college and SHOULD have been a penalty. But I looked at the play by play and the series after our TD doesn't have the play and I can't honestly find it.


Arizona Cardinals at 10:35
1-10-ARI33 (10:35) J.Arrington right end to ARZ 35 for 2 yards (M.Spears). Arrington started left before cutting right.
2-8-ARI35 (9:56) J.McCown pass incomplete to L.Fitzgerald. Pass incomplete right sideline at the Dallas 46; Pile closest defender on the play.
3-8-ARI35 (9:50) J.McCown pass incomplete to L.Fitzgerald. Quick slant right end; Glenn closest defender on the play.
4-8-ARI35 (9:47) (Punt formation) S.Player punts 40 yards to DAL 25, Center-N.Hodel, out of bounds.

Just trying to find the play so I can figure out Josh' numbers before and after the hit, certainly wouldn't surprise me to find out Josh was woozy from that hit.

 

[vince56]

Just trying to find the play so I can figure out Josh' numbers before and after the hit, certainly wouldn't surprise me to find out Josh was woozy from that hit.

What's terrible about it is it was helmet-to-helmet, out of bounds on a quarterback, and no penalty flag was thrown.

I weep for this league. The Cards had no chance to win this game.

 

[Chaz]

Can anybody find exactly when the hit happened? I've seen the replay it was a brutal hit by Keith Davis his teammate in college and SHOULD have been a penalty. But I looked at the play by play and the series after our TD doesn't have the play and I can't honestly find it.

It was after we traded FG.

End of the third.

Arizona Cardinals at 02:57
1-10-ARI27 (2:57) J.McCown left end to ARZ 33 for 6 yards. Slid at that spot.
2-4-ARI33 (2:19) J.Arrington left end to ARZ 33 for no gain (B.James).
3-4-ARI33 (1:42) J.McCown pass to A.Boldin to ARZ 49 for 16 yards (R.Williams). Pass complete right side of the field.
1-10-ARI49 (1:03) J.McCown right end to DAL 42 for 9 yards (B.James; K.Davis).
2-1-DAL42 33) L.Fitzgerald left end ran ob at DAL 37 for 5 yards. Brown of Arizona was shaken up on the play.
1-10-DAL37 09) J.McCown pass incomplete to L.Fitzgerald. Pass caught out of bounds at the Dallas 15; Ware of Dallas with heavy pressure.
2-10-DAL37 01) J.McCown pass incomplete to L.Fitzgerald. Pass incomplete left sideline.
Fourth Quarter
Arizona Cardinals continued...
3-10-DAL37 (15:00) J.McCown sacked at DAL 48 for -11 yards (S.Fujita). The sack is Fujita's first of the season.
4-21-DAL48 (14:32) S.Player punts 37 yards to DAL 11, Center-N.Hodel, out of bounds.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Bottom line...we can debate Joshs skill level and how he would do on a "real" team...but Josh plays for the Cards...


What we need is a QB who can excel DESPITE our flaws, because we should come to accept stopping the run and running the ball are probelms that may never go away. even if they do, its not likely to happen in one off season....

yes i agree Josh would be a better QB on the a team like the Colts wtih all the players around him and him just setting the table and having all day to do it... he might even toss for 20+ TD's on a team like that....

But look around boys, that ain't us, we got two recievers and a couple lineman that might start for other teams and that it.....Every other piece is either average or below average. so we demand a QB who is so skilled that he could galvanize the team all by himself. For instance, the Giants have a suspect line pass blocking wise, and pedestrian WR's,esp. before Buress came o. But Eli takes them to the level where they have an explosive offense. You all can talk about Tiki all day, but Eli is the one who is making him look so good this year. teams fear Manning now, and he manages to get the ball off quite well behind his line. A QB works together with other players on the unit and RAISES there level of play as well. Thats the difference betwen the QB position and most other positions (except for the case of Randy Moss and a couple RBs). They are what every game plan centers around.

So, from what i have seen, Josh is not that player. He never will. Hes had time, and while he might go to a team and have success (ala jake this year), he will never be the REASON a team won the Super Bowl. he would just facillitate it.

I will repeat a Solomon wilcots quote. " Some QB's need playmakers to be effective, and some QB's are playmakers" and thats what it comes down to. Sure Josh may look great with a Pro Bowl supporting cast (as most NFL level QB's would) but we shouln't assume we will EVER be able to surround a QB with that much talent. Hasn't happened since they have been in Arizona, so why not prioritze to fill the most important position well.

Josh may not* be the PROBLEM behind us losing games, but he sure as hell isn't the ANSWER either


*And i say "may not" because after watching the games, i'm of the belief that he always is and always will be an average QB. Lets just call it like it is, hes a "49er Killer"...These have been the only two games he has ever played very well in. And they may have the roster most devoid of talent the last two years running.....

 

[Russ Smith]

Thanks SirChaz, that's kind of what I thought the play occurred much later in the game. The next 4 pass attempts were 2 incompletions, one sack, and then the INT for the TD. Would seem to support Conrad's theory that Josh was woozy.

And Vince is dead on that is a penalty against virtually any QB in the NFL I can't imagine how they didn't call one against Davis.

 

[Stout]

I will submit that this is proof of a defeatist attitude. Take a sack rather than trying to make something happen downfield when you are down by Two scores late in the game? Maybe if it is early in the 2nd do you take the sack but not in the 4th qt down by Two scores. That is madness. Had Big gave Josh another second the ball would have been thrown out and led Q for a gain. Instead the DE grabbed Josh as he was throwing it and pulled him to the left making the ball go short to the Cb. This is completely on the Oline..no two ways about it. I have watched it now 5 times.

Russ answered that one quite nicely. Again, if he throws the ball away when he sees the rush, it's 2nd and 10. Instead? Well, you saw what happened.

 

[Rats]

Russ answered that one quite nicely. Again, if he throws the ball away when he sees the rush, it's 2nd and 10. Instead? Well, you saw what happened.

This would be ok except McCown was in the act of throwing the ball as he was grabbed by the DE. He would have most likely fumbled if he tried to bring the ball back down with him. The Cardinals had 12 minutes to get back in the game. The Qb and receivers were trying to make something happen. With Big not getting pushed back into McCown imo this pass is completed for a big gain. This is not on the Qb imo.

 

[conraddobler]

This would be ok except McCown was in the act of throwing the ball as he was grabbed by the DE. He would have most likely fumbled if he tried to bring the ball back down with him. The Cardinals had 12 minutes to get back in the game. The Qb and receivers were trying to make something happen. With Big not getting pushed back into McCown imo this pass is completed for a big gain. This is not on the Qb imo.

The one where he was grabbed shows the throw got altered, it was right in the middle of his delivery, no chance to do anything about that one.

Look you can pick apart his play, it wasn't pretty in the 2nd half but I think if you watch the tape prior to the hit he took out of bounds and after that there is a distinct difference in his performance.

 

[john h]

I challenge anyone that can stomach it, to go back and watch just how many times Josh McCown was pummeled in this game. Every OLineman should personally go and apologize to McCown and forfeit there paycheck to charity. They sucked bad as a group as did the DLINE. They could not stop the run to save there life. Josh over threw and underthrew several balls but he is gunshy after getting rocked so much because of this line. I counted 6 solid jawbreaking hits on him in the 1st half and 4 in the second. No Qb can withstand that and be successful. NO ONE!! Say what you will about Josh's play but when he moves on he will be successful behind a decent line. He likes to compete and with a decent running game he will be a good NFL starter. Anyone that says otherwise does not know what is required to be an NFL Qb. The good ones have a good or great supporting cast. Josh does not and has not had that here. Only those that are blind can't see this. The playcalling and failure to adjust to what the other team is doing is what is wrong with this team. That and the interior lines.

Actually according to USA Today (todays issue) there are at least 5 other teams that have more QB's sacks than the Cards. They only listed the 5 worst at protecting the QB and we were not on it. There is more to protecting a QB than the OL. A QB himself, his receivers, the plays called, the coaching all go into QB sacks.

 

[moklerman]

You all can talk about Tiki all day, but Eli is the one who is making him look so good this year.

This is such a false statement I wouldn't know where to begin to contradict it.

Manning: 12/31 (39%) 146 yds 1 td 1 int 51.2 rating
Barber: 24/206 (8.58 ypc) 1 td
Defense: 0 points allowed!

Eli has had his moments but he's not the reason for anything on his own. The o-line is much improved this year, there is a bonified #1 wr on the team and Jeremy Shockey isn't hurt. Add to that, the big rookie rb, Jacobs, has brought to fruition a true "thunder and lightning". 3rd and 1 and goalline situations are much different for the Giants now that Dayne is gone and the rookie has emerged.

 

[Chaz]

This is such a false statement I wouldn't know where to begin to contradict it.

Manning: 12/31 (39%) 146 yds 1 td 1 int 51.2 rating
Barber: 24/206 (8.58 ypc) 1 td
Defense: 0 points allowed!

Eli has had his moments but he's not the reason for anything on his own. The o-line is much improved this year, there is a bonified #1 wr on the team and Jeremy Shockey isn't hurt. Add to that, the big rookie rb, Jacobs, has brought to fruition a true "thunder and lightning". 3rd and 1 and goalline situations are much different for the Giants now that Dayne is gone and the rookie has emerged.

Thanks, someone had to say it.

 

[cardsfan22]

Why are you people even talking about who should start at QB. DID YOU WATCH THE GAME??????????????????????????????????????????????We could have had Marino in his prime and he could not do anything with this team. Josh did his best with what he had. He took shot after shot after SHOT just so he could try and make something happen. I love the just throw the ball away crap.

he would have thrown the ball away 20 times.

QB is not the prob and i dont know why we even care who starts at QB. This O-line is the prob and, will be the reason why we might not win another game this season.Granted,The defense did its fare share of nothing,but the defense is much,much closer to being good.

And why is Lenord Davis at the tackle spot?????? did you see how Ware just bull rushed him right back into Josh on that INT? When is Green going to see he cant handle the speed at DE. This team has some good young players but to many holes.

 

[Russ Smith]

And why is Lenord Davis at the tackle spot?????? did you see how Ware just bull rushed him right back into Josh on that INT? When is Green going to see he cant handle the speed at DE. This team has some good young players but to many holes.

While I agree LT is not his best spot, if Ware can bullrush him why do you think he'll do better against 330 pound DT's? Ware is only 255, or are you saying that fear of speed gets Big off balance where he can be overpowered?

I think that's why he jumps so often, he's trying to get a headstart to block a speed rusher like Ware.

 

[vince56]

While I agree LT is not his best spot, if Ware can bullrush him why do you think he'll do better against 330 pound DT's? Ware is only 255, or are you saying that fear of speed gets Big off balance where he can be overpowered?

I think that's why he jumps so often, he's trying to get a headstart to block a speed rusher like Ware.

I think he doesn't care. His play is too inconsistent.

 

[moklerman]

While it's true that Josh wasn't solely to blame for the loss, he was ineffective overall. He played like he's always played over the last four games and it's time, I think, to move on. In this case it's Warner that will come in but regardless of who's next in line, Josh just isn't the fit for this offense at this time.

The o-line needs to improve more. This, of course, implies that they've been improving which I think they have. Compared to Tiki Barber's incredible day the Card's rushing attack was feeble, but compared to what we've seen since game one, there were some bright spots with Shipp and Arrington yesterday. Not enough to scare a defense, but maybe just enough to keep them somewhat honest. And, during the first quarter and a little more, the offense was doing just that. I was ready to concede that McCown didn't deserve to lose his job and actually looked pretty darned good, but like someone mentioned earlier, it's like a bad switch went off in McCown's head and he just couldn't get anything going.

Just like in Carolina, there were opportunities for Josh to step up, make a play at the right time, and seize control of the starting position and more importantly help win the game. He didn't and hasn't. The offense has gradually and steadily gotten worse each game he's played and is now scoring less than at the start of the season. The whole point in starting McCown was to see what he could do and to help the team score more (by being more aggressive). That isn't happening and there's a viable option on the bench. A 10 year "fix" for the qb position? No, but Culpepper is an unfortunate example that there aren't any long term solutions to the qb position in the NFL for most team. Favre is a freak. Manning is a rarity. I think everyone else has to go through changes every three or four years.

 

[coyotesareback]

Look McCown was like 8/11 I beleive and the score was 10 -10 we were in the game then the D gives up a TD to go back down. The offense came back out and then Josh started getting killed and had been rattled. The OC should have been running faster developing plays some quick hitting stuff so that McCown did not continue getting killed. He did not play that well but started well, I for one beleive that he was not all there and his play showed that. He was not the reason we lost, the whole damn team was the reason we lost. If the damn D could get a stop once in awhile it would be great. We are never going to win games giving up as many points as we do consistantly. Our D is mediocre at best, we have talented players but they are just way to inconsistant. We constantly make plays on D for short or negative yardage then when it counts on 3rd and you name it we always give up 1st downs its rediculous.

I believe the reason we lost this game and many other is just flat out COACHING we don't seem to have ANY and I mean any good coaches. CP some one argue is and up and comer but his D is being exposed constantly, it does not take long in this league for coached to match scemes and stunts that we use to try and mask our inaddaquencys. Cant stop the run period and its gonna continue to get us killed. DG is just plain bad game day coach week after week we get the same thing, no adjustments during the game it is beyond comprehention. We seem to hang close in the first half and be in the games then after the half the opposing team comes out with adjustments and kill us and we do nothing. Our Oline coach has to be the worst in the NFL by far and should not have a job right now, we need to bring in an EXPERIENCED oline coach or it will continue to plague this team.

Just so frustrating watching this team and the losing goes so much deeper than the players. The coaching on this team has been bad for years and needs to be fixed. To watch former players go to other teams with good coaching and become much better players says alot about our coaching.

Kudos to Jake Plummer by the way over 300 yds 4td 0int and has not thrown a pick in 6 games. Think he is finally getting the coaching he did not get here.

Also the officiating in this game may have been the worst I have ever seen. For Dallas to have no penalties with all the late hits, helmet to helmet, interference penalties that were going on? WOW this entire crew should be fired! Absolutely pathetic officiating, might as well let the Cowboys coaches officiate the game, thats how it seemed anyways.

 

[Duckjake]

To watch former players go to other teams with good coaching and become much better players says alot about our coaching.

Always remember that for every former Cardinal who goes to another NFL team and becomes a better player there were 50 who went to the Car Dealership and became better car salesmen.

 

[CaptTurbo]

Always remember that for every former Cardinal who goes to another NFL team and becomes a better player there were 50 who went to the Car Dealership and became better car salesmen.

BINGO

 

[Faithful]

I have to agree that you could put in any great quarterback (Dan Marino, John Elway, Joe Montana, etc...) in their prime and they would look terrible! I watch Big Ben and Eli Manning and they make as many mistakes as Josh may make. Josh also makes some great plays like they do.

Sorry guys, but this loss wasn't all Josh's fault and in fact, probably only a small part of the reason.

 

[Rats]

Always remember that for every former Cardinal who goes to another NFL team and becomes a better player there were 50 who went to the Car Dealership and became better car salesmen.

Duckjake.....you bought a car from one of those guys to? And SWD....not McCown....not yet...ha ha

 

[Duckjake]

Duckjake.....you bought a car from one of those guys to? And SWD....not McCown....not yet...ha ha

Sure did. Worked great in town but everytime I took it on the road it broke down.

 

[john h]

I have to agree that you could put in any great quarterback (Dan Marino, John Elway, Joe Montana, etc...) in their prime and they would look terrible! I watch Big Ben and Eli Manning and they make as many mistakes as Josh may make. Josh also makes some great plays like they do.

Sorry guys, but this loss wasn't all Josh's fault and in fact, probably only a small part of the reason.

How can you mention Josh McCown in the same paragraph with some of the greatest QB's of all time? You have to really like this guy over and above his football skills. If my brother was playing for the Cards and playing like Josh I would fire his butt.

 

[coyotesareback]

Nice reply Duckjake! I never said every cardinal player leaves and gets better it happens period just the past few years Jake, Pittman, Chavous, TJ, now I agree it was time to part with alot of the players that leave. THe fact remains players go to teams and get REAL coaching and develop, the same can't be said here. You in your negativity obviously only read to try to find something to make a smart ass comment about, instead of an intelligent response.

 

[Rats]

Sure did. Worked great in town but everytime I took it on the road it broke down.

Yeah, mine was a lemon...they said it was built for speed but all it ever had was a flat tire and it overheated.

 

[CaliCards]

Josh should remain the starting Qb for the rest of the season.......

Coaches bent of designing most of the plays that keep him in the pocket when they know darn well that the O-Line is crap, must take most of the blame for the lost.

The coaching staff have to be held accountable by fans on game day for not designing plays that complement strengths and cover up weaknesses.

McCown has a strong arm, he can take a good hit, he can tuck the ball and run to move the chains, he is not that good a pocket passer, Cards have poor running game, and the O-Line is weak and often kept on their heals--that's what they have to work with for the rest of the season.

So why on earth are the coaches designing plays as if they got a strong O-Line and good running game to support the Qb?

I don't think a change at the Qb position is going to make much of a diffference.........Dallas D pushed us around with Blake at Qb, and they almost did the same with McCown as our starting Qb.