MHJ

[Russ Smith]

You look at that first screenshot with Dortch filling the void by the blitzer. Marvin has his man beat right there. The DB is curling in(thinking he has help deep) and Marvin is going deep. Murray was looking at the blitzer and not down the field. Otherwise, he makes that deep throw.
Point is, Marvin was open, then wide open, then wide wide open the entire play. Kyler watched the blitzer then panicked. Which is odd because the blitzer was still a pretty good distance away from him.

no he's not you're using hindsight that you know how wide open he gets on the play. At the point where Kyle is about to throw the ball to Dortch, MHJ isn't at all wide open the CB is still 3 yards behind him. He does have his head turned looking towards Dortch but he hasn't abandoned MHJ yet. If you advance it a beat that's when both the CB and the safety move thinking it's going to Dortch and then MHJ breaks wide open but Kyler has already pulled the ball down and started to move.

Saying Marvin is wide open when his defender is 3 yards behind him is just not true.

I can't do screen shots I don't have enough memory on my desktop but if you freeze it right at the point Kyler is going to throw it to Dortch and pulls it down, MHJ still has the CB behind him and the safety several yards deeper.

If the WR was D Hop not a rookie he might stay on that play because he knows him well and trusts him, but that's not the case yet with MHJ so he moved left wanting to go to the other guy he trusts, McBride.

 

[Chopper0080]

He was about to throw it to Dortch. Which begs the question, why didn’t he throw it to Dortch instead of hesitating?

Agreed. Also, weird that he started short (Dortch) and then flipped to the other side of the field instead of checking MHJ who is on the same side of the field as Dortch. He treated MHJ as his last option unless MHJ was his first read and Dortch his second. If that is the case, he didn't really let the MHJ route develop.

 

[Russ Smith]

I disagree. The whole reason MHJr ended up wide open was because the DB covering him peeled off to tackle Dortch as Kyler was in the process of throwing it to Dortch before aborting. My guess is that Kyler couldn't see what was happening behind the Blitzing DB that jumped in the air to block the pass. It's the whole short QB issue that comes with Kyler. After he pulls down the ball, Kyler immediately looks to his left for McBride which I'm assuming was his next progression.

If Kyler saw MHJr open he would have thrown it to him. Clearly he didn't see MHJr at all.

and the other part is Kyler is 5'10, Dortch is 5'7", Dortch IS open but you can't expect a guy who had 2 passes batted down on the prior drive to make that throw he can't put it up higher or Dortch won't get it. So he pulls it down.

It all comes down to when he made that decision, MHJ isn't open, if he waits just a beat longer it becomes obvious he's going to be wide open but he's already gone off that side.

 

[Chopper0080]

An odd visual progression on that route.

 

[Stout]

I disagree. The whole reason MHJr ended up wide open was because the DB covering him peeled off to tackle Dortch as Kyler was in the process of throwing it to Dortch before aborting. My guess is that Kyler couldn't see what was happening behind the Blitzing DB that jumped in the air to block the pass. It's the whole short QB issue that comes with Kyler. After he pulls down the ball, Kyler immediately looks to his left for McBride which I'm assuming was his next progression.

If Kyler saw MHJr open he would have thrown it to him. Clearly he didn't see MHJr at all.

Height be damned, if that's your view, you should be hyper critical of Kyler, then. A good QB goes "ah, MHJ's guy just got sucked in by a pump fake--time to punish him."

 

[Stout]

An odd visual progression on that route.

Right. There is no play where your first read is far right, then your next read is far left, then your next read is far right again.

 

[Russ Smith]

Right. There is no play where your first read is far right, then your next read is far left, then your next read is far right again.

It was a blitz, Dortch was the hot read but the leaping Blitzer took that away.

At that point Kyler moved to where he knew he had more blockers, the problem was that took him off MHJ

 

[MadCardDisease]

Height be damned, if that's your view, you should be hyper critical of Kyler, then. A good QB goes "ah, MHJ's guy just got sucked in by a pump fake--time to punish him."

Like I said a few sentences later:

It's the whole short QB issue that comes with Kyler.

There is no making Kyler taller. It's an issue that the Cardinals will always have to live with. There will be times where Kyler's "Shortcomings" affect what he can see on the field. I think this was one of those cases.

 

[SoonerLou]

It was a blitz, Dortch was the hot read but the leaping Blitzer took that away.

At that point Kyler moved to where he knew he had more blockers, the problem was that took him off MHJ

Despite what Brit says it actually makes sense.

Dortch (1) underneath. Trey short to the left (2)
One the short side of the field the corner is more likely to jump that route leaving Michael Wilson deep (3). It didn't happen. Edge pressure as well.

 

[SoonerLou]

Trev is having his issues in Jax as well. However, this is an example of where you gotta trust it with these caliber of WRs. I mean...BTJ was flying though.

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[Russ Smith]

Despite what Brit says it actually makes sense.

Dortch (1) underneath. Trey short to the left (2)
One the short side of the field the corner is more likely to jump that route leaving Michael Wilson deep (3). It didn't happen. Edge pressure as well.

Obviously I'm guessing but I think the drop and bad route by MHJ earlier had Kyler not trusting him, and the drop by Wilson had Kyler not trusting him. So Dortch is the hot read can't make that throw, I have more protection on my left so I'm going left to look for the other guy I trust, mcBride. Trey's not open, Conner stayed in to block so he wound up completely not seeing the one guy that got open.

In a perfect world he should have seen it but I get why he didn't

 

[Stout]

Like I said a few sentences later:



There is no making Kyler taller. It's an issue that the Cardinals will always have to live with. There will be times where Kyler's "Shortcomings" affect what he can see on the field. I think this was one of those cases.

If he's doing his job as a good QB, height doesn't matter. He reads the defender jumping the other route and goes right back to the open guy a half second later.

 

[Chopper0080]

Despite what Brit says it actually makes sense.

Dortch (1) underneath. Trey short to the left (2)
One the short side of the field the corner is more likely to jump that route leaving Michael Wilson deep (3). It didn't happen. Edge pressure as well.

My thought would be the progression was designed to go marv, dortch and then shift to the left because normally you counter the blitz by throwing at it. Kyler adjusted down to Dortch once the blitz came, but instead of checking Marv after he pumped to Dortch, he just went to the other side of the field.

A couple random thoughts.

I can't say how Kyler is coached, but I have heard QBs that will go back to their first read after they confirm the blitz has been picked up.

Checkdowns/hot reads are normally for when the defense brings more players than you have to block. That wasn't the case on this play and one of the best ways to punish a blitz is by targeting the one on one matchups for splash plays. Kyler immediately going to a hot read is a little concerning in that regard. Teams will keep firing blitzes if they know you are going to immediately hit the hot read for a minimal gain.

 

[kerouac9]

Obviously I'm guessing but I think the drop and bad route by MHJ earlier had Kyler not trusting him, and the drop by Wilson had Kyler not trusting him. So Dortch is the hot read can't make that throw, I have more protection on my left so I'm going left to look for the other guy I trust, mcBride. Trey's not open, Conner stayed in to block so he wound up completely not seeing the one guy that got open.

In a perfect world he should have seen it but I get why he didn't

Dortch had a higher target share than Justin Jefferson did this week. Kyler has to get out of his feelings and just operate the offense.

 

[SoonerLou]

My thought would be the progression was designed to go marv, dortch and then shift to the left because normally you counter the blitz by throwing at it. Kyler adjusted down to Dortch once the blitz came, but instead of checking Marv after he pumped to Dortch, he just went to the other side of the field.

A couple random thoughts.

I can't say how Kyler is coached, but I have heard QBs that will go back to their first read after they confirm the blitz has been picked up.

Checkdowns/hot reads are normally for when the defense brings more players than you have to block. That wasn't the case on this play and one of the best ways to punish a blitz is by targeting the one on one matchups for splash plays. Kyler immediately going to a hot read is a little concerning in that regard. Teams will keep firing blitzes if they know you are going to immediately hit the hot read for a minimal gain.

The tough part is we don't and are both assuming based on situation. So it might have been Trey who was #1, idk.

We have 1:12 left and 3 timeouts on the 39. And as Russ said hit zero deep passes so far at that point. It seemed like they were working the short game cause that was working.

 

[SoonerLou]

Dortch had a higher target share than Justin Jefferson did this week. Kyler has to get out of his feelings and just operate the offense.

When the HC is saying this... I think its more Kyler needs to know when to trust player over system.

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[GatorAZ]

Dortch had a higher target share than Justin Jefferson did this week. Kyler has to get out of his feelings and just operate the offense.

When he targets Dortch in the flat and he’s usually open and it’s a successful gain. They need to tell Dortch to not go 15+ down the field. The crazy thing is that was the actual called route for Dortch on the final play.

 

[Cheesebeef]

When the HC is saying this... I think its more Kyler needs to know when to trust player over system.

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Mentioned that yesterday. Hate it. Either they don’t know how to scheme their best player open and or he’s covering for Kyler who doesn’t know how to get him the ball.

Either way, it’s lame.

 

[kerouac9]

Mentioned that yesterday. Hate it. Either they don’t know how to scheme their best player open and or he’s covering for Kyler who doesn’t know how to get him the ball.

Either way, it’s lame.

It's lame but I think he's covering for his guy. It's also not really that accurate. Offense has to get more than three first downs in the second half.

 

[Russ Smith]

My thought would be the progression was designed to go marv, dortch and then shift to the left because normally you counter the blitz by throwing at it. Kyler adjusted down to Dortch once the blitz came, but instead of checking Marv after he pumped to Dortch, he just went to the other side of the field.

A couple random thoughts.

I can't say how Kyler is coached, but I have heard QBs that will go back to their first read after they confirm the blitz has been picked up.

Checkdowns/hot reads are normally for when the defense brings more players than you have to block. That wasn't the case on this play and one of the best ways to punish a blitz is by targeting the one on one matchups for splash plays. Kyler immediately going to a hot read is a little concerning in that regard. Teams will keep firing blitzes if they know you are going to immediately hit the hot read for a minimal gain.

It wouldn't have been a minimal gain, it was going to be a 10 + yard gain to Dortch. But give the blitzer credit he didn't do what Budda does so often and just run blindly into pocket, he read the play and jumped.

 

[Russ Smith]

Dortch had a higher target share than Justin Jefferson did this week. Kyler has to get out of his feelings and just operate the offense.

I'm not saying it should be that way I'm saying that's my guess on why MHJ didn't see more targets. We've seen this with Kyler the whole time he's been here, he lost trust in Isabella, AJ Green etc. I assume when he has enough reps with MHJ that will go away.

 

[THESMEL]

It’s Gannon’s fault, for not playing starters some in the preseason

DeeJay Dallas becomes first NFL player to return a dynamic kickoff for a touchdown, and other Arizona Cardinals notes after a loss in Buffalo

-- The work Marvin Harrison Jr. didn't get was also going to be a storyline. Coach Jonathan Gannon said the Bills were shading some coverages to take Harrison out of the equation, but to not have a target in the second half was a surprise.
"It was our first time playing together," Murray said, adding that the two will get better on plays like the missed back-shoulder throw in the first half.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

no he's not you're using hindsight that you know how wide open he gets on the play. At the point where Kyle is about to throw the ball to Dortch, MHJ isn't at all wide open the CB is still 3 yards behind him. He does have his head turned looking towards Dortch but he hasn't abandoned MHJ yet. If you advance it a beat that's when both the CB and the safety move thinking it's going to Dortch and then MHJ breaks wide open but Kyler has already pulled the ball down and started to move.

Saying Marvin is wide open when his defender is 3 yards behind him is just not true.

I can't do screen shots I don't have enough memory on my desktop but if you freeze it right at the point Kyler is going to throw it to Dortch and pulls it down, MHJ still has the CB behind him and the safety several yards deeper.

If the WR was D Hop not a rookie he might stay on that play because he knows him well and trusts him, but that's not the case yet with MHJ so he moved left wanting to go to the other guy he trusts, McBride.

Look at that 1st screenshot again. The CB may be behind him but he’s already squatting while Marvin is in full go mode.
Every legit NFL Wr is open at that point and going to beat that CB.

 

[oaken1]

Dortch had a higher target share than Justin Jefferson did this week. Kyler has to get out of his feelings and just operate the offense.

Agree. Trust issues have always been a thing with kyler.
He needs to throw to his open teammate and let the coaches deal with guys having issues

 

[slanidrac16]

When the HC is saying this... I think its more Kyler needs to know when to trust player over system.

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So if defenses “crowd him” we can continue to look forward to 3 targets, 1 catch and 4 yards???