Miller once again does it again!

[Lefty]

Hard to say. I think it's universally known that UofA is going to annihilate the PAC-12 and make a tourney run, hopefully to the Natty. I think the image will only get better if it is proven that Book went rogue and nothing more happened, or there is a wave of other top-tier teams that get implicated in the investigation, which levels the playing field for us. The problem is the more I think about it, the more I think this FBI case is going to drag on for a long time, maybe even a couple of years. The FBI has already told the NCAA to hold off on any investigation until it has finished with its case. In a sense, we're looking at potentially five years before a punishment is levied, if one is at all.

UofA should follow the UNC model for recruiting. UNC has always recruited fairly well, but they rarely ever pull multiple 5* kids in one class, and some recent classes didn't even have one. Get some kids who will stay at least 2-3 years, coach them up, find some good grad transfers to fill in the gaps, and hope that they develop rapidly.

Unlike other schools caught in this mishegas, UofA is a basketball brand name, so Miller should still be able to sell the program to high 4* guys. Miller may have to wait on pulling in multiple 5* kids for a little while, but this may be a blessing in disguise as it will force Miller to coach his players up more.

I think we will know more once the UofA has completed their own internal investigation. After seeing how UNC did not get penalized at all, I think we could see no penalties to losing a couple of scholarships and maybe forfeiting games and paying back tournament money.

As long as this team stays healthy, it's definitely the most talented team the UofA has ever had.

 

[Russ Smith]

I think we will know more once the UofA has completed their own internal investigation. After seeing how UNC did not get penalized at all, I think we could see no penalties to losing a couple of scholarships and maybe forfeiting games and paying back tournament money.

As long as this team stays healthy, it's definitely the most talented team the UofA has ever had.

The FBI told UA to hold off on their investigation(and the NCAA) which clearly suggests the FBI thinks these other investigations could make it harder for the FBI to get people to talk. So if you're waiting on UA's internal investigation, that's going to take too long.

Comparing this to UNC is just not valid. I think UNC got off incredibly easy but I do see why it happened, they were smart enough to have lots of regular students in those fake classes so they could legitimately argue it's not extra benefits. Athletes and frat boys were disproportionately in the classes so it worked to their advantage. The NCAA doesn't regulate academics, although its' hilarious that can not clear Cheik Diallo for weeks because they questioned his academics prior to HS when he was in Mali, but they can't do anything about clearly fake AFAM classes at UNC.

Arizona's situation has nothing to do with academics, there's no legit way UA can argue it's not extra benefits if money changed hands, it clearly is if players actually got the money.

The best case for UA is being able to somehow prove Book got the money but never paid it out, seems that will be difficult to prove. I was told by a reporter that Larry Scott said at the Pac 12 media day that teams are not supposed to play players until they're notified by the NCAA they are cleared. That's normal, Ayton couldnt' play until just before the overseas trip for example. What's not clear now is has the NCAA told schools which players are now in question? The standard is the NCAA rules players ineligible and then makes them prove they're eligible(like Trier last year), in this case if they have the names, it's entirely possible we'll see on 11/10 when the season starts for USC and ARizona, that suddenly some players won't play and that will mean they're suspended.

But if the NCAA is being told to wait by the FBi, its' possible they don't know any or all of the names. I doubt the NCAA wants to suspend some guys but not all.

it gets really weird because the NCAA doesn't want Arizona at 18-0 to suddenly lose 3 guys because they were involved, and have to vacate all 18 games, same with USC and Alabama(Sexton), etc.

Right now it appears USC and UA are going to play all their players until they're told they can't, so the NCAA has about 17 days to figure out what they're going to do.

 

[Russ Smith]

Hard to say. I think it's universally known that UofA is going to annihilate the PAC-12 and make a tourney run, hopefully to the Natty. I think the image will only get better if it is proven that Book went rogue and nothing more happened, or there is a wave of other top-tier teams that get implicated in the investigation, which levels the playing field for us. The problem is the more I think about it, the more I think this FBI case is going to drag on for a long time, maybe even a couple of years. The FBI has already told the NCAA to hold off on any investigation until it has finished with its case. In a sense, we're looking at potentially five years before a punishment is levied, if one is at all.

UofA should follow the UNC model for recruiting. UNC has always recruited fairly well, but they rarely ever pull multiple 5* kids in one class, and some recent classes didn't even have one. Get some kids who will stay at least 2-3 years, coach them up, find some good grad transfers to fill in the gaps, and hope that they develop rapidly.

Unlike other schools caught in this mishegas, UofA is a basketball brand name, so Miller should still be able to sell the program to high 4* guys. Miller may have to wait on pulling in multiple 5* kids for a little while, but this may be a blessing in disguise as it will force Miller to coach his players up more.

I can't see it taking 5 years? The FBI has all these guys that are being forced to talk to them, unless nobody cooperates the case will get bigger, but if you're ARizona or USC the last thing you want is nobody cooperating because then you're going to be one of the few teams getting hammered on.

The KVOA story I emailed the author and asked him and he says the blurb about Book saying he would now only steer players to Dawkins instead of multiple agents, is new, that came from recently unsealed docs that KVOA got from a Freedom of Information filing, he says that's not in the original release from the FBI. So if that's correct it appears Book was dealing with agents prior to the FBI stuff and then it becomes for how long, with how many(Calvin Andrews and the Oakland Soldiers?) and does that help or hurt UA's chance to say he's just a rogue coach.

You can say see he's been rogue for years but that makes it harder to argue climate of compliance to save Miller from getting caught up in the 2013 rule change that holds head coaches liable unless they can prove they had an atmosphere of compliance.

 

[TJ]

Right now it appears USC and UA are going to play all their players until they're told they can't, so the NCAA has about 17 days to figure out what they're going to do.

The NCAA is frozen at the moment. They can't do a thing until the FBI investigation is over and that won't be done in 17 days.

Right now, the only proof available is that Book took money from an Adidas agent, and frankly, that's not enough. Even that silly 2013 ruling you keep bringing up would have zero validity. The NCAA couldn't punish Arizona for anything if it wanted to.

UofA is going all-in this season and let the chips fall where they may. If it wins and everything gets vacated, so be it.

 

[TJ]

You can say see he's been rogue for years but that makes it harder to argue climate of compliance to save Miller from getting caught up in the 2013 rule change that holds head coaches liable unless they can prove they had an atmosphere of compliance.

If nothing else comes out of this investigation, that's an easy fight. We're a Nike school, have a great, long standing relationship with Nike, and one of our assistants decided that making 1/10th of a HC salary wasn't enough and decided to line his pockets from a direct competitor's agent.

Not saying it won't happen, but something big would have to surface between now and the end of the investigation for anyone to prove that Miller has an atmosphere of non-compliance.

 

[Russ Smith]

The NCAA is frozen at the moment. They can't do a thing until the FBI investigation is over and that won't be done in 17 days.

Right now, the only proof available is that Book took money from an Adidas agent, and frankly, that's not enough. Even that silly 2013 ruling you keep bringing up would have zero validity. The NCAA couldn't punish Arizona for anything if it wanted to.

UofA is going all-in this season and let the chips fall where they may. If it wins and everything gets vacated, so be it.

maybe I'm wrong but I think you're confusing 2 aspects of this case. Adidas had no involvement with Arizona beyond the agent Dawkins telling Adidas they were going to have to match 150K to get Little to Miami because one of Adidas competitors(nike) was offering 150K for him to go to school 4(arizona).

Dawkins is not Adidas, he used to work for Andy Miller an NBA agent but got fired for abusing an NBA players UBER account and racking up charges. The FBI has since raided Andy Miller's company. Dawkins didn't work for ASM let alone Adidas when the stuff with Book took place, it was after he'd been fired and was trying to go it on his own with the adviser.

I also think you're misunderstanding the 2013 rule, the NCAA doesn't have to prove Miller had an atmosphere of non compliance, the rule requires Miller to prove he has an atmosphere of compliance, not the other way around.

I also think you misinterpreted what Hansen wrote. He didn't say the NCAA is frozen, he said the FBI asked Arizona and the NCAA to hold off INVESTIGATING until the FBI is done. That doesn't mean the NCAA can't suspend players. The question is do they have the names to do that. again precedent is the NCAA suspends and then makes the player prove he's eligible, they don't let them play until they can prove they're ineligible. We just don't know if the NCAA has the names or not.

If they don't I agree it won't happen in 17 days, if they do, I think it's entirely possible we'll see players not playing when the games start for arizona and SC on 11/10. My guess is the NCAA doesn't have the names or they would have already suspended guys.

 

[GatorAZ]

Now I'm really wishing Alkins would've gone pro. Can they hold him out if they suspect him of taking payment but don't have proof? It would be unfair to the player but you have to err on the side of caution...

 

[TJ]

I also think you misinterpreted what Hansen wrote. He didn't say the NCAA is frozen, he said the FBI asked Arizona and the NCAA to hold off INVESTIGATING until the FBI is done. That doesn't mean the NCAA can't suspend players. The question is do they have the names to do that. again precedent is the NCAA suspends and then makes the player prove he's eligible, they don't let them play until they can prove they're ineligible. We just don't know if the NCAA has the names or not.

I don't care what Hansen wrote. He writes for shock value and I haven't read anything of his in quite some time. There's a reason more than half of the athletic department hates his ass.

And no, the NCAA literally can't do anything at the moment. They can't suspend without doing their own investigation and there's still the possibility that the NCAA itself will be investigated as well, which I alluded to weeks ago. The FBI is not going to do the NCAA any favors. There will be a clear sequence of events: the FBI is going to do its investigation, and afterwards, the NCAA can do its own investigation. That's why I said this can take up to five years to complete as you have two entities that have a penchant for taking their time to investigate these matters.

 

[TJ]

Now I'm really wishing Alkins would've gone pro. Can they hold him out if they suspect him of taking payment but don't have proof? It would be unfair to the player but you have to err on the side of caution...

They can do whatever they want, but I'm assuming that Miller is going to play this out as if everyone's eligible and deal with the mess later on.

 

[GatorAZ]

They can do whatever they want, but I'm assuming that Miller is going to play this out as if everyone's eligible and deal with the mess later on.

Yeah I agree. Miller won't do anything out of fear but the "deal with it later" mindset might be a reason why we're here to begin with. After three Elite-8's came the pressure and he gave Book too many chances.

On the flip side why would a program not think they could escape punishment after the UNC investigation? You almost expect it at this point...

 

[overseascardfan]

Yeah I agree. Miller won't do anything out of fear but the "deal with it later" mindset might be a reason why we're here to begin with. After three Elite-8's came the pressure and he gave Book too many chances.

On the flip side why would a program not think they could escape punishment after the UNC investigation? You almost expect it at this point...

Totally agree with this, particularly the UNC debacle. The NCAA really opened the door for other schools to cry favoritism when they get caught and the NCAA levies punishment. There is going to be a very long, dark cloud over college basketball until this investigation is concluded. Smart move for NCAA is to revisit removing amateurism so that way whatever FBI findings come out, it would be moot. But we are dealing with greedy, stubborn individuals who no matter how bad the findings come out, they won’t dig into their coffers to solve the problem. They’ll levy some bs punishments for show and go back to business as usual.

 

[Russ Smith]

Now I'm really wishing Alkins would've gone pro. Can they hold him out if they suspect him of taking payment but don't have proof? It would be unfair to the player but you have to err on the side of caution...

Why would they have to isn't he out until December anyways with the foot?

My guess is if the NCAA doesn't know the names now, they probably will by then so Arizona won't have to make that call on Alkins.

this whole thing is confusing, SC just got a commitment from Elijah Weaver yesterday. Said he picked them because he trusted their staff the most, and that Sc has been very up front and kept him updated on the FBI stuff and the implication is they're telling him they don't expect any probation or sanctions. Ok State fired Evans, Louisville has fired multiple people, Alabama made the guy resign, but USC and arizona have just suspended not fired Bland and Book

 

[GatorAZ]

Why would they have to isn't he out until December anyways with the foot?

My guess is if the NCAA doesn't know the names now, they probably will by then so Arizona won't have to make that call on Alkins.

this whole thing is confusing, SC just got a commitment from Elijah Weaver yesterday. Said he picked them because he trusted their staff the most, and that Sc has been very up front and kept him updated on the FBI stuff and the implication is they're telling him they don't expect any probation or sanctions. Ok State fired Evans, Louisville has fired multiple people, Alabama made the guy resign, but USC and arizona have just suspended not fired Bland and Book

Ha forgot about the foot. That takes away some pressure at least right now.

So coach 2 and 3 are indentified now?

http://caneswatch.blog.palmbeachpos...i-am-coach-3-in-fbi-college-basketball-probe/

 

[Russ Smith]

Ha forgot about the foot. That takes away some pressure at least right now.

So coach 2 and 3 are indentified now?

http://caneswatch.blog.palmbeachpos...i-am-coach-3-in-fbi-college-basketball-probe/

Speaking of forgot, I forgot that UA technically said they started the termination process on Book. he just announced today he's fighting that his lawyer is fighting it has filed an appeal and is awaiting word from Arizona.

It also says that Book can't discuss the charges against him in a UA hearing because it's "inappropriate" given the FBI is still conducting their investigation. This goes back to what Hansen wrote about the FBI has asked arizona and the NCAA(and presumably USC) to not conduct internal investigations until the FBI is done. Near as I can tell this means with the coaches, not the players who as of now aren't charged with anything.

The Little case is the odd one here both sides of the alleged bidding war seem convinced that the whole thing was made up by the agent trying to impress people as part of his plan to get more access to coaches and players.

It would be pretty crazy if that turns out to be true

 

[Russ Smith]

Totally agree with this, particularly the UNC debacle. The NCAA really opened the door for other schools to cry favoritism when they get caught and the NCAA levies punishment. There is going to be a very long, dark cloud over college basketball until this investigation is concluded. Smart move for NCAA is to revisit removing amateurism so that way whatever FBI findings come out, it would be moot. But we are dealing with greedy, stubborn individuals who no matter how bad the findings come out, they won’t dig into their coffers to solve the problem. They’ll levy some bs punishments for show and go back to business as usual.

They can't do that retroactively though.

nobody seems to want to believe me but there's a very specific reason that the NCAA makes all student athletes sign a document every year that swears they have not violated their amateur status. Kids do this before they get cleared as freshmen, that's why Ayton went up to the last day before cleared for the foreign trip, he hadn't cleared amateurism until then. Then again every year you stay in college you have to sign the same form.

The entire purpose of that form is so if the player has in fact done something, the NCAA can then get them for both the amateurism violation, AND for lying to the NCAA by submitting a form that swore they hadn't.

Given we're in October and all these players are practicing it's a safe assumption they all signed that form.

 

[TJ]

Why would they have to isn't he out until December anyways with the foot?

My guess is if the NCAA doesn't know the names now, they probably will by then so Arizona won't have to make that call on Alkins.

this whole thing is confusing, SC just got a commitment from Elijah Weaver yesterday. Said he picked them because he trusted their staff the most, and that Sc has been very up front and kept him updated on the FBI stuff and the implication is they're telling him they don't expect any probation or sanctions. Ok State fired Evans, Louisville has fired multiple people, Alabama made the guy resign, but USC and arizona have just suspended not fired Bland and Book

As a public employee, Book has to be given notice of termination and be allowed due process. His appealing is within his right, but I think it's more a formality and a way to continue to receive paychecks, but he's never coming back to Arizona.

 

[Russ Smith]

As a public employee, Book has to be given notice of termination and be allowed due process. His appealing is within his right, but I think it's more a formality and a way to continue to receive paychecks, but he's never coming back to Arizona.

yeah I just saw that story he's on PAID LEAVE until the FBI allows him to interview with Arizona on his appeal. From the wording of the story Arizona is furious because he makes about 250K so they're paying him over 20K a month to do nothing knowing that he put them in this situation.

They said he's a service professional but there's nothing in the story that answers whether UA can go after him for pay because he violated his contract, sounds like they can't.

I'm assuming USC and Bland are the same, that they started the termination process but can't finish it for similar reasons.

 

[TJ]

yeah I just saw that story he's on PAID LEAVE until the FBI allows him to interview with Arizona on his appeal. From the wording of the story Arizona is furious because he makes about 250K so they're paying him over 20K a month to do nothing knowing that he put them in this situation.

They said he's a service professional but there's nothing in the story that answers whether UA can go after him for pay because he violated his contract, sounds like they can't.

I'm assuming USC and Bland are the same, that they started the termination process but can't finish it for similar reasons.

Not sure re: USC as they're a private school and have more autonomy than UofA.

 

[Mr. Boldin]

I still think all the worrying is a bit overstated here. The FBI is involved and clearly looking into Adidas and Nike. Does anyone really think the NCAA is going to leave this mess unscathed? They sit on the top rung of this case.

Additionally, it would be silly to assume the NCAA is going to have any kind of ruling against any player RE: violations before the season starts, and more than likely ends. They are going to get wrapped up in this too.

 

[TJ]

I still think all the worrying is a bit overstated here. The FBI is involved and clearly looking into Adidas and Nike. Does anyone really think the NCAA is going to leave this mess unscathed? They sit on the top rung of this case.

Additionally, it would be silly to assume the NCAA is going to have any kind of ruling against any player RE: violations before the season starts, and more than likely ends. They are going to get wrapped up in this too.

I don't think we've seen anything like this in sports. I think the only situation that is even remotely comparable is the Mitchell Report in baseball, which also cast a stigma on the sport and certain players who were mentioned in it.

For Arizona, it's a day-by-day situation. This could go one of many ways. More information could come out about additional infractions made by the coaching staff. It's also possible that nothing else surfaces. The refrain has been that more schools will be named, and if that happens, and no new negative information about Arizona arises, we're going to be grouped in with dozens of other schools and not the prized school amongst four or five other schools.

The only worry from me is the perception from recruits. We lost Quinerly, Little was going to commit, and Shittu and Bol were also very interested in UofA. The longer this drags on, the more burden it puts on recruiting.

In my heart of hearts, I don't think Miller is a dirty coach and doesn't set up payments for players. I truly believe that this is an assistant who went rogue to line his own pockets. Miller is a tireless worker who puts in more hours than he should in recruiting. He admitted to spending over 800 hours recruiting Josh Jackson and didn't land him. If Miller was running a dirty program, wouldn't he have tried to offer impermissible benefits to him, the 2016 #1 recruit? If I'm wrong, then shame on Miller, but I'm fairly confident in my feelings towards the situation.

 

[Russ Smith]

jackson is actually interesting if you read the stories on christian Dawkins the agent. Jackson was being "run" by Dawkins for awhile, at a certain point his mom, Apple Jones, got involved in the recruitment and took over, she moved him to a new AAU team founded for her to coach. Moved him to Prolific Prep. All that was done to get him away from Dawkins and others who were trying to funnel her son down a path she didn't like. At the time it came out it seemed like yet another example of a kid being given terrible parenting so the mom could steer her son overseas, it turns out his mom probably saved his college eligibility by doing that.

The good news for ARizona is the more you read about Dawkins the more clear it becomes much of what he says is not true several people are comparing him to DiCaprio's character in Catch Me if You can. The guy is 25 years old, he was 20 when he started "handling" Jackson. He was telling people he was an agent and had multiple players when he was actually a runner getting players for Andy Miller. He bluffed his way up the ladder very fast then got fired, and then tried to go solo and run his own agency and that's when he hooked with with that Blazer guy right around the time the FBI started flipping him.

So while it's clear Dawkins did have money and was paying coaches and trying to steer players, it actually is possible that these bidding wars over players may have been created by Dawkins as part of his attempt to build his brand. Convince both sides the other side is bidding big money and several people like Gatto with Adidas believed him and approved a bid. It sounds like the Bowen one really happened although nobody knows if his family got the money, the Little one is harder to tie down everyone involved is denying it happened beyond just Dawkins telling both sides the other side was bidding.

 

[Russ Smith]

I still think all the worrying is a bit overstated here. The FBI is involved and clearly looking into Adidas and Nike. Does anyone really think the NCAA is going to leave this mess unscathed? They sit on the top rung of this case.

Additionally, it would be silly to assume the NCAA is going to have any kind of ruling against any player RE: violations before the season starts, and more than likely ends. They are going to get wrapped up in this too.

The thing is the players aren't charged with anything, the only federal crime they could be involved in would be tax evasion if they got money and don't report it and there's nothing in the FBI story that says they've involved the IRS.

If the FBI gives the names to the NCAA those players will then have to prove to the NCAA they're eligible, that's how the system works, that's how it has always worked, suspend player make him prove he's eligible. The only unknown here is does the NCAA have those names yet, and none of us know that answer.

 

[GatorAZ]

The thing is the players aren't charged with anything, the only federal crime they could be involved in would be tax evasion if they got money and don't report it and there's nothing in the FBI story that says they've involved the IRS.

If the FBI gives the names to the NCAA those players will then have to prove to the NCAA they're eligible, that's how the system works, that's how it has always worked, suspend player make him prove he's eligible. The only unknown here is does the NCAA have those names yet, and none of us know that answer.

So the FBI knows who Player and Coach 1-2-3-4-5-6-7 etc are?

 

[Russ Smith]

So the FBI knows who Player and Coach 1-2-3-4-5-6-7 etc are?

yes, they keep the names confidential in the report but the FBI knows who all those people are they've made that clear that's why they've been arresting coaches.

They're not arresting players because they're not really breaking federal law by taking money, unless again the IRS gets involved.

We don't know if the NCAA knows who the players are but the FBI does, they have hours and hours of wire taps and under cover information on the case.

They want more people, presumably the way to get that is flip the coaches, the agents and the money guys. I suppose they could get a player to flip and talk about all the people who offered him money but it seems pretty clear that's not the route they're going, not a single player has said they've been interviewed by the FBI. Jawun Evans is in the nBA now he just yesterday confirmed he's not been contacted, he's the player Lamont Evans paid at Ok State.

Larry Scott said at media day the players are not supposed to play until they're cleared by the NCAA, but he wouldn't answer the question if they knew who the players were.

It's a very crazy season right now, nobody has any idea what's going on.,

 

[GatorAZ]

yes, they keep the names confidential in the report but the FBI knows who all those people are they've made that clear that's why they've been arresting coaches.

They're not arresting players because they're not really breaking federal law by taking money, unless again the IRS gets involved.

We don't know if the NCAA knows who the players are but the FBI does, they have hours and hours of wire taps and under cover information on the case.

They want more people, presumably the way to get that is flip the coaches, the agents and the money guys. I suppose they could get a player to flip and talk about all the people who offered him money but it seems pretty clear that's not the route they're going, not a single player has said they've been interviewed by the FBI. Jawun Evans is in the nBA now he just yesterday confirmed he's not been contacted, he's the player Lamont Evans paid at Ok State.

Larry Scott said at media day the players are not supposed to play until they're cleared by the NCAA, but he wouldn't answer the question if they knew who the players were.

It's a very crazy season right now, nobody has any idea what's going on.,

Great so the conversations listed in the report with Book is only about 1% of the evidence they have. He must be on record specifically stating a lot info that isn't public; which current players he allegedly paid, how much $ they got, when it happened etc... You have to ask what Book's end game was? Take money from this agency, keep it and hope they never find out it's not going to players? That's hard for me to buy.