MJ said Graves was hoping .....

[Russ Smith]

Originally posted by Lex
I see what you're saying Russ. Suggs doesn't get to play much, less than 20 snaps. And he still got a sack...

Imagine what he could do on a team that he could actually PLAY for. Like us.

If I transfer your logic to Bryant Johnson, it's clear WE don't think he can play wideout.

Johnson wasn't the SIXTH pick Lex. You keep ignoring that, we chose to not pick him at 6, we didn't pick Johnson over Suggs, he was off the board at that point.

Suggs is basically coming on 3rd and more than 5 yards, how many times did we have Detroit in that situation Sunday? Detroit only ran 13 plays on 3rd down, I'm betting not all of them were "passing downs", maybe most but not all. So we're basically saying Suggs might have played 10 plays for us unless we put him in on 1st and 2nd down and just hoped Detroit passed on those downs.

I think Pace is better than Suggs right now.

 

[Sandan]

Originally posted by RedStorm
Russ,

I do not disagree with your comments. Mine were just addressing the comment that we had a good draft. Maybe, maybe not. Thing is we have 12-14 million and we are relying on rookies.

I think my point was that the draft looks right now a huge improvement over previous years.

We got a player in Q and while there are questions about the others most people seem to think that Hayes and King were good picks. With BJ as with most WR will take some games, possibly a year to adjust.

Bryant, isn't behind the curve, Q is way, way ahead of it.

 

[RedStorm]

Originally posted by nidan
I think my point was that the draft looks right now a huge improvement over previous years.

We got a player in Q and while there are questions about the others most people seem to think that Hayes and King were good picks. With BJ as with most WR will take some games, possibly a year to adjust.

Bryant, isn't behind the curve, Q is way, way ahead of it.

Nidian,

No problem. But what bothers me is that we have to fill our holes with rookies.

 

[Sandan]

Originally posted by RedStorm
Boston I will agree that it looks good now.

Ah but you have been ripping on RG for months about dumping DB.

Originally posted by RedStorm
Don't trade Boston...

Tag him and make him not one of the top 5 but THE top paid WR.

If the Cards want to do things differently it can start with how they deal with tagged players.

With reference to Boston ...

Originally posted by RedStorm
Tell me how we are to improve if we do not keep our best players? Growing pains should only last so long...not your entire life.

The point to this that for months you have been saying (paraphased)

1- Bidwill is cheap
2- Rod Graves is merely Bidwills puppet
3- Look the proof is that we should have kept David Boston.

Now you quietly admit that maybe RG was right in letting Boston go, but I see no eating of the dark colored bird to admit that you have been wrong on that subject for months.

Now you pick up your chant again with a different last line. I hadn't noticed this until is looked back at past posts. Given the continual rant on this subject (se lines 1 & 2), I thikn you need to eat some crow before continuing with a new closing line, ie

1- Bidwill is cheap
2- Rod Graves is merely Bidwills puppet
3- Look the proof is that we didn't sign Marco Coleman

 

[KingofCards]

I agree with Nidan on the Boston issue.

Nobody would have given us crap for that loser. We would have ended up stuck with him or paying him an injury settlement when he finally breaks down for good.


The contract S.D. signed him to is laden with stipulations regarding behavior. Only three teams even attempted to bring him in.

The Boston situation is a plus for Graves in my opinion.

 

[BuckeyeCardinal]

From a Minus To A Plus

Originally posted by KingofCards
I agree with Nidan on the Boston issue.

Nobody would have given us crap for that loser. We would have ended up stuck with him or paying him an injury settlement when he finally breaks down for good.


The contract S.D. signed him to is laden with stipulations regarding behavior. Only three teams even attempted to bring him in.

The Boston situation is a plus for Graves in my opinion.

My....how times change.

 

[HoodieBets]

Originally posted by KingofCards
I agree with Nidan on the Boston issue.

Nobody would have given us crap for that loser. We would have ended up stuck with him or paying him an injury settlement when he finally breaks down for good.


The contract S.D. signed him to is laden with stipulations regarding behavior. Only three teams even attempted to bring him in.

The Boston situation is a plus for Graves in my opinion.

I think we could have got a first round pick for him. He is a pro bowl player he just has to act like one.

 

[phinius]

Originally posted by nidan
Actually I do have to work occasionaly.

As for RG, in the midst of slamming him with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight. Please feel free to ignore the goods things he has achived it makes your rant's so much more effective

1) 1st round picks in camp
2) The draft most of the picks are looking good right now, with the except of Q who looks unbelivable.
3) Resigning players before the end of their contracts (I'm hoping for more)
4) Leting Jake & DB go, did anybody hear Joe Bugel on that today ?

Not spinning anything I think RG has screwed a couple of pouches so far but then may he thinks so as well. But it's always easier with hindsight.

The most sensible of the situation I have seen on this board so far.

Phinius, the old timer

 

[conraddobler]

No team plans for stuff as deep as you guys are insisting. You cannot have depth of any great quality in the NFL due to the cap.

Graves admited he planned wrong and that talent of the type he wanted just wasn't available or wouldn't sign...

Some of you complaining now would have resigned Sanders Martay and Boston and a few would have signed the dread J word....

It would go somehing like this.


You'd wildly over pay for Colvin and Holliday to make sure they came here blew out there rest of this years cap so your points on Wilkinson and Mouldin would have been moot plus you'd have suggs in there not Pace would get road grated on runs.

Now to make this fair KVB still blows out his knee and either Holliday or Colvin suffers a similar fate to King to make it roughly equal.. We'd be in the roughly the same damn spot!!!!!

Maybe we have King maybe not who knows who said guru would go for and possibly not Boldin since we took Suggs when you did you would have reordered the draft and presto now Boldin may or may not be there and said guru may or may not be smart enough to take him if he was.

Blake? maybe but more likely we'd have Jeff George courtesy of your win now shining mentality, losing games like he always does plus maybe whatever dregs of the football hinterland was in vogue at the moment.

George and Boston could now have contests on being locker room cancers and each could handily point fingers at the other as the true evil in Cardinal land. Mac would still fail to prepare but somehow all of this would fall on your the GM's head since you know your the man in charge.

What ifs are just a way of saying I told you so and you know what people can make easy careers out of dissing the Cardinals since it usually pans out in your favor.

However watching as long as I have I can tell you things have happend this year that are more important than all the botched misc stuff over the years all put together. One guy is in charge mistakes or no there is a direction... That can't be down anyway this is the Cardinals after all..

Have a good weekend.

Go Cardinals!!!!!!

 

[ajcardfan]

We win this Sunday, Graves will be off the hook. We win again, it'll be back to Graves has a plan. If we win the next three in a row, Graves will be demi-God like and receive mass worship on this board.

 

[Jttsaz]

Agreed..but if we don't...Is he the devil?

 

[football karma]

First -- when you are not a "destination" type franchise, if you want to hire talent, you have to hire inexperienced talent. While these people may be talented, they will make mistakes experienced hires probably wont.

This is true for many players on the team, the offensive coordinator and the general manager.

What makes people mad? That Graves actually admitted that things didnt do as he thought or wanted? Or would it be better to have a guy who right now truly thinks that he did everything perfect this past offseason.

Not that I think that Graves is perfect. I have shaken my head at passing on Norman Hand, Ted Washington, and Dan Wilkenson -- all of whom could have helped this team. But I would rather have a guy who learns from and admits to his mistakes, than some knucklehead like Buddy Ryan who right now would be telling us that this is part of his grand scheme.

 

[Sandan]

Originally posted by ajcardfan
We win this Sunday, Graves will be off the hook. We win again, it'll be back to Graves has a plan. If we win the next three in a row, Graves will be demi-God like and receive mass worship on this board.

Not to mention that I will be drunk continuosly for several weeks

 

[KingofCards]

Re: From a Minus To A Plus

Originally posted by BuckeyeCardinal
My....how times change.

Find one post of mine where I got on Graves for getting rid of Boston?

I think you are confusing me with someone else.

 

[KingofCards]

Originally posted by azcardsfan1616
I think we could have got a first round pick for him. He is a pro bowl player he just has to act like one.

Really? If he wasn't our player would you give up a 1st round pick to get him?
And then give him a $40 million contract?

Oh and Jake is gone brother. Time for a name change.

I suggest cobroncsfan1616 but I am sure you have other ideas.

 

[KingofCards]

Originally posted by azcardsfan1616
He is a pro bowl player he just has to act like one.

 

[HoodieBets]

Originally posted by KingofCards
Really? If he wasn't our player would you give up a 1st round pick to get him?
And then give him a $40 million contract?

Oh and Jake is gone brother. Time for a name change.

I suggest cobroncsfan1616 but I am sure you have other ideas.

My name has nothing to do with jake. I have said it millions of times. 1616 Stands for the greatest QB to ever play the game, Montana. He was my idol growing up. No one could ever do the things montana did. IMO one of the greatest QB's of all time. But seriously why do you think i like jake? I did when he was here but now he is gone and i could care less. I've moved on. He is just like Mac, good guy but bad player/coach.

Back to the topic. If i thought that boston was healthy i would give up a first round pick. That first round pick would have to be after like the 12th pick though.

 

[HoodieBets]

Originally posted by KingofCards

You dont agree? He has made the pro bowl already. He just needs to get his head together. Cant doubt the guys raw talent and ability, no one can.

 

[RedStorm]

Originally posted by nidan
Ah but you have been ripping on RG for months about dumping DB.



With reference to Boston ...



The point to this that for months you have been saying (paraphased)

1- Bidwill is cheap
2- Rod Graves is merely Bidwills puppet
3- Look the proof is that we should have kept David Boston.

Now you quietly admit that maybe RG was right in letting Boston go, but I see no eating of the dark colored bird to admit that you have been wrong on that subject for months.

Now you pick up your chant again with a different last line. I hadn't noticed this until is looked back at past posts. Given the continual rant on this subject (se lines 1 & 2), I thikn you need to eat some crow before continuing with a new closing line, ie

1- Bidwill is cheap
2- Rod Graves is merely Bidwills puppet
3- Look the proof is that we didn't sign Marco Coleman

Nidian,

Thanks for taking me down memory lane. My chant will not change until I see wins. I have chosen to have a higer standard of progress.

As far as Boston is concerned we should have tagged him so we could have gotten something in return for him.

Graves was hired because he is of the same mindset as that of Bidwill. He manages Bidwills money the way Bidwill wants it. Bidwills track record for putting together a winner is undeniable. There never has been a winner in town.

With 12 million to spend and not addressing our needs can tell you a few things. With the history of this team I think it says that saving money is more important than winning football games.

Thanks again for reminding me of what I said in the past. The season is not over. Let's compare Boston's stats with our starting #1 WR. Who was that on opening day? Gilmore? Foster? So far the score on that is Boston - one pro bowl to Gilmore and Fosters - 0 pro bowls. But let us wait until the end of the season before we judge.

And, if you dare, maybe that crow can turn into a friendly little wager of enchilladas at Rositas? Like I said, if you dare.

Peace

 

[Cardiac]

Rollercoaster .. Say What .. WOO HOO HOO

It never seems to change, People, there is a middle ground on the RG issue. This is the most pro-active this team has been in .....ever. Is it good enough, no not yet.

Do we at least see things changing for the better, YES.

I can't believe we have a thread this long off of one quote from RG that basically states that he thought more talent would be released after June 1st. It has been a trend in the NFL for a couple of years now that teams aren't cutting top end players at this time but this year was the worst ever.

Coleman was signed by the Eagles on that Friday because their starting DE Burgess got hurt in Friday's practice, he's out for the year. Now maybe RG should have known that a team that already has 3 injured players at this position was going to lose another one but I don't think so.

Comparing sack stats after one game is ridiculous.

Giving up on a 1st rd WR pick after one game is silly.

Still thinking Boston had value is ........ I just refuse to get insulting at this point.

I agree that Thompson had a tough game in Detriot for all the reasons Cheesebeef listed, he did play the run well however.

Giving up on a 3rd rd pick (DJ) after 1 season is not proactive or forward thinking, it's a knee jerk reaction that kills the long term prospects of the team.

This horrible collection of WR's helped Blake pass for over 300 yds and 3 TD's.

Our "old RB" not only made several good runs and showed he makes things happen when given some semblance of a hole but also was amazing in Blitz pick up and showed savvy with calling those time outs in the Red zone. Shipp is still not very effective with his blitz pick up.

RG signed Spikes and Garcia and also re-signed Roundtree. Bad luck about Garcia and Roundtree and just think when these guys come back. Now add Bigs injury and just how do you plan for all of this, yet we are not in horrible shape like we would have been in years past. Kudos to RG on this front.

The glaring mistake to me this off season that RG could have made a difference was at the DT position. Let's wait and see how Hand, Wilkinson and .... do for more than one game before we ride the ROLLERCOASTER of emotion, again.

 

[tigertat]

I think what this all boils down to RG showing a lack of vision when it comes to predicting trends in the NFL. All of us new that no big names would be cut June 1st or later cut dates becuase teams just arent in cap hell this year. It also shows a lack of aggresivness when it comes to FA's.

It's 2 steps forward(good draft, resigning core players during the season, injury waivers to rookies, rookies in camp, and contracts with all thebells and whistles.)

Then 1 step back(waiting for FA's to be cut, lop sided draft day trade, not getting something for Boston although letting him go was good, and then his comment that we werent aggresive in the initial rounds of FA which is the most important round, he put to many eggs in one basket on the FA front)

Its just annoying to see so many good things then see a few glaring bad things to knock us down a peg.

After RG's public statement that we will be very aggresive next year in FA, he better do so after publiclly saying so or he will get ripped a new one by fans and media.

In the end Graves should have never said anything.

 

[AZCB34]

Re: Rollercoaster .. Say What .. WOO HOO HOO

Originally posted by Cardiac
Coleman was signed by the Eagles on that Friday because their starting DE Burgess got hurt in Friday's practice, he's out for the year. Now maybe RG should have known that a team that already has 3 injured players at this position was going to lose another one but I don't think so.

I don't know Cardiac. Graves didn't have to project a team having 3 injured players at this position because he had already lost a starter at this position several weeks ago...and then the decision was made to start Wakefield. Yup, it was decided Fred Wakefield is better than Marco Coleman. While I am not a big Coleman fan, there is no logic to this decision for the real reason it was made.

Guaranteed contract.

That is the reason. I am not saying Coleman would have signed here, but Graves made a decision to postpone actively pursuing him until after the first game. That kind of thinking hurts the good things he did this offseason. With $12-$14 million in cap space (does anyone know the exact amount right now?), what difference does it make to guarantee a one year contract? Even if you overpay a bit on it (say $1 million instead of league minimum)?

Why not take a chance to improve the team this year...even if it is a one year deal? Give the players and fans some hope. My biggest worry at this point is the players who are due to be FA will be tentative to resign because the Cards are sitting on all this money and doing nothing to improve the team and they will leave. Then the work done has been set back again.

 

[JeffGollin]

We Start Out 20% Behind

I'm not ready to crucify Rod Graves, but I'm poised.

The $14.4 million (pre-rookie incentive allowance) cap surplus is roughly 20% of our total cap budget for the year.

Which means we're only paying 80% of what we're permitted to spend for talent.

Ergo - talentwise, we're roughly 80% as good as we could be. And it shows.

Granted, some of Rod's moves and talent assessments have proved to be the right ones, but there were times where he had to pull the trigger early enough and didn't.

I'll accept the argument that there's a "learning curve", but caution that "it's very difficult to change an individual's personality" and I suspect Rod will have a hard time overcoming his inclination to play it safe.

This team isn't good enough to "pass" on opportunities as they present themselves. (It isn't good enough to only spend 80% of its allotment on talent).

 

[jmr667]

I think the Graves did as well as could be expected this year. Keep in mind he is a rookie GM. He may have made some rookie mistakes. But he did manage to get the Bidwills to let him work competitive contracts to get 1st rounders into camp within the first week, and appears to have gotten one of the best draft groups in recent Cards history.
I think despite some mistakes he has shown some promise and intelligence. Hopefully he will learn from those mistakes and do even better next year. He's already admitted he learned a bit about the free agent market. Next year there will still be plenty of cap room and he will be more aggressive in the early parts of the offseason.

Let's face it folks, it would have been nice if everything had gone perfect this year but even Ron Wolf in his prime would not have been able to turn the Cards into SuperBowl contenders in this one offseason.

 

[AZCB34]

Re: We Start Out 20% Behind

Originally posted by JeffGollin
I'll accept the argument that there's a "learning curve", but caution that "it's very difficult to change an individual's personality" and I suspect Rod will have a hard time overcoming his inclination to play it safe.

See, I am not so accepting of the learning curve. I mean he has been working in the NFL evaluating talent, doing alot of the GM duties etc. It isn't like they put an ad in the paper and hired him off the street. I just think, given his time working in front offices, he should be more aware of things. In all the time working with Fergy, I gotta believe he could have a opretty firm grasp on tendencies in the personnel side of the business. I mean, I don't do that for a living and I knew the pickings were going to be very slim June 1...and slim again at the end of camp.

I do think he is conservative and will look, and measure and recalculate and think and look again before he leaps. He will not be a guy who suddenly changes from conservative to aggressive easily if at all