MJ vs LeBron

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Lebron. Hes played much better competition with not even close to as good supporting cast. Its MJ so its the mystic that gets ppl. Fact is Lebron is a better overall player as much as ppl will hate on that opinion

Lebron is the better overall player and he’s developed into a late game killer, but I don’t think he’s the assassin that Jordan was. I think you square them up against each other and despite lebron’s height and weight advantage Jordan would exhausted every ounce of his physical, mental, and emotional reserves to destroy Lebron. He would’ve taken anyone challenging his supremacy personally and just not allowed it. I think he would’ve risen to virtually any challenge. I just don’t see that level of competitive “evil” in Lebron.

 

[Cheesebeef]

When they were getting bounced early on. The first 3 years they made the playoffs with a losing record.

Ah. The Dave The Dad Corzine years. Agreed.

 

[HeHasRosen]

Pippen was an all time great but he wasn’t a guy like Wade or Kyrie that could take over a Finals series offensively. In that Dallas series that Lebron melted down in Wade was fantastic. Kyrie averaged 27/4/4 in the finals and outplayed Steph. Pip wasn’t that guy.

Also MJ’s teams early on were trash like Lebron’s now so it evens out. I’ll give you coaching.

Thats why i voted Lebron. Pippen is a different type of player than wade or kyrie. Those 2 guys are just straight scorers. Pippen was a lock down defender and Rodman did the dirty work inside. It was the perfect compliment to what Jordan did. Lebron did meltdown in the dallas series for sure. Something jordan would never do. But Lebron doesn't have to lead his team in scoring to win. Hes a better facilitator and plays to the strengths of his teammates while elevating their game. Jordan just took over games and was at his best when the lights were brightest

Lebron is the better overall player and he’s developed into a late game killer, but I don’t think he’s the assassin that Jordan was. I think you square them up against each other and despite lebron’s height and weight advantage Jordan would exhausted every ounce of his physical, mental, and emotional reserves to destroy Lebron. He would’ve taken anyone challenging his supremacy personally and just not allowed it. I think he would’ve risen to virtually any challenge. I just don’t see that level of competitive “evil” in Lebron.

I cant argue with you on this. I would pay money to see that 1 on 1. Its something that no amount of stats can measure. He just ate dudes souls

 

[Hoop Head]

Thats why i voted Lebron. Pippen is a different type of player than wade or kyrie. Those 2 guys are just straight scorers. Pippen was a lock down defender and Rodman did the dirty work inside. It was the perfect compliment to what Jordan did. Lebron did meltdown in the dallas series for sure. Something jordan would never do. But Lebron doesn't have to lead his team in scoring to win. Hes a better facilitator and plays to the strengths of his teammates while elevating their game. Jordan just took over games and was at his best when the lights were brightest

That sounds like a reason to vote Jordan, IMO. Lebron does make his teammates better but in order to win he needs to get something from them. MJ would cover for his teammates shortcomings if needed and push his team to victory. That to me says he's the better player. He did have a good supporting cast but it took years for that to be assembled. People often bring up Rodman but Rodman wasn't there for his first 3peat. Pippen was a great compliment to Jordan but Pippen didn't win anything without Jordan. Wade won a title before Lebron ever went to Miami. Wade was superior to Pippen throughout their title runs with Lebron and MJ, respectively.

Lebron is the best player in this generation but Jordan is the best player of all time. Jordan killed dynasties when he was building a dynasty in Chicago. Lebron would need to go through 1 tough team in the East, if that, before playing for a championship in the finals. While Lebron did beat the Spurs and Warriors he also has losses to them in the finals, and those losses came after his wins. Had he faced them and lost and then came back to avenge those losses I think that would be more impressive but instead he beat the Spurs and Warriors and they came back to take him out the next year. Jordan on the other hand was able to take teams down in the finals and virtually close their title windows, he did that with the Lakers, Blazers, Suns, and Sonics before the Jazz managed to repeat as Western Conference Champs. It took Jordan beating them twice to close the window on their title hopes.

 

[Western Font]

I’m okay with people tanking them 1 and 1A, but if I have to make a choice I still pick Jordan.

MJ doesn’t just have three more rings, he was undefeated in the finals, all for the team that drafted him. LeBron won his first two titles with Miami, after of course saying “not two, not three, not four...” He didn’t even prove “not two” in Miami. He was 2-2 in finals appearances there, and is 1-3 in Cleveland (including his first trip in ‘06.)

If he goes to Philly or Houston or Golden State or somewhere and wins a couple more, sure, he’ll have the greatest aggregate career of all time. But when it comes to claiming the drama of “greatest,” it’s just not as dramatic.

Crazy to think that if the Celtics didn’t lose to the Hawks in ‘58, Russell would have been 11-0 in the finals instead of 11-1.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Do you really think there's less holding and bumping now than there used to be? I see multiple fouls on nearly every play. The written rule isn't relevant if the officials don't enforce it.

It is a fact

 

[elindholm]

It is a fact

I think you must be trolling me. You can't possibly expect anyone to be convinced by that incoherent, semi-stoned blather.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Just watch all the clips in the background. He actually explains the difference well, but yes his style of speaking is dull.

What is gone for Lebron.

#1. Hand Checking. You cannot maintain contact with the offensive player while they are in motion
#2. 3 second rule. The defensive player cannot camp the lane, which allows for free drives to the basket.
#3. You cannot physically grab a player with two hands to impede them from getting the ball off the ball. He actually shows the Suns doing this during the Jordan series.

He explains why guards score so much more in the pros than in college and that is a direct result of these changes.

He explains why guards rarely post up now because the screen and roll is so much easier now.

He even quotes several people from Jordan's era like Joe Dumars who states that he wouldn't be able to cover Jordan with these rules.

I am sorry you don't understand how the NBA game changed when the rules changed but the current style of play is nothing like Jordan's era. If you don't like that video, you are welcome to go learn what hand checking actually is and why it doesn't happen.

In either event, educate yourself a little instead of being a snarkfest

 

[elindholm]

In either event, educate yourself a little instead of being a snarkfest

It's nice to see the board's moderators modeling such encouraging standards of fairness and civility.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

It's nice to see the board's moderators modeling such encouraging standards of fairness and civility.

#1. I answered your question and you responded with snark and accusing me of trolling you.

You get what you put out Eric

#2. You are welcome to report me again. Or start a website. Those have worked out great for you so far

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

. He just ate dudes souls

Best description I’ve ever seen.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

#1. I answered your question and you responded with snark and accusing me of trolling you.

You get what you put out Eric

#2. You are welcome to report me again. Or start a website. Those have worked out great for you so far

Sanders, kinda snarky, just saying.

 

[elindholm]

#1. I answered your question and you responded with snark and accusing me of trolling you.

You get what you put out Eric

I can't energetically disagree with you, nor put you on Ignore, because you are a moderator. Pardon me, a Super Moderator. You own the rules and apply them as you see fit. It's not a fair fight.

Besides, you didn't answer my question. I know that the NBA rules have changed. I asked whether you really think there is less contact than there used to be. You referred me to a subnormal fanboi broadcasting from his mother's basement.

Or start a website. Those have worked out great for you so far

What I learned from the website is that there aren't that many people interested in what I have to say. I'm okay with that. I believe the number to be greater than zero, which is why I continue to post here. You aren't among them, which is also okay. I suggest that you put me on Ignore, and refer to my posts only if someone complains about them and you feel the need to censor me again.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I can't energetically disagree with you, nor put you on Ignore, because you are a moderator. Pardon me, a Super Moderator. You own the rules and apply them as you see fit. It's not a fair fight.

Besides, you didn't answer my question. I know that the NBA rules have changed. I asked whether you really think there is less contact than there used to be. You referred me to a subnormal fanboi broadcasting from his mother's basement.



What I learned from the website is that there aren't that many people interested in what I have to say. I'm okay with that. I believe the number to be greater than zero, which is why I continue to post here. You aren't among them, which is also okay. I suggest that you put me on Ignore, and refer to my posts only if someone complains about them and you feel the need to censor me again.

To bring it back to hoops, I think there is much less hand-checking. I was watching the Cavs-raptors game and noticed siakam kind of gently brushing Lebron with one hand repeatedly. Like he wanted to hand check him and then would remember he couldn’t. That’s a dance I see often in today’s nba. Wouldn’t have been necessary in Jordan’s era.

 

[Hoop Head]

I wonder how Lebron will be viewed when he decides to retire. I remember hating Jordan when he played for the Bulls because they were damn near unbeatable and watching him in the finals against us where he was unstoppable was heartbreaking. I know Suns fans weren't the only people to dislike him either, he toasted numerous teams and kept a number of franchises from winning titles. I remember people bashing him for being a ball hog also but he was clutch and won games, even Bulls fans would admit he would hog the ball but they didn't care because it worked. Now that Jordan is done killing teams with his play he only kills the Hornets by his poor management of that team as their owner. Everyone looks back at him as one of the best athletes ever, from any sport, and one of the greatest basketball players of all time, if not one of THE greatest.

Compare that to the complaints about Lebron, he can't win without creating superteams. He plays GM for his teams and gets coaches fired. Coaches don't really run the teams he's on, Lebron does. His attitude and ego keep him from being coachable. Him and his agent push his teams for too much control, even getting his friends overpaid and then he complains the team isn't putting the right talent around him and they need to spend more. He flops all the time. He travels on the majority of his drives. He gets too many "superstar calls" in his favor. He's not clutch, although he seems to have solved that this year. He always passes up the big shot, which is another thing he's changed this year. It's taken him 14 years to make changes to those things, I think too much time has past for him to be viewed that much differently in regards to the complaints about him being clutch or passing up big shots. He flops all the time. He travels on the majority of his drives. He gets too many "superstar calls" in his favor.

Will those complaints stick around when he's retires? I don't know but I think most of them will. He's not hated for crushing other teams like Jordan, I feel safe making that assumption. He's hated for a number of reasons but I don't think there is a fanbase out there that hates him for owning them repeatedly outside of Toronto, who aren't very good anyways. Lebron isn't stopping them from winning titles. The only complaint about Lebron that I remember hearing about Jordan is the traveling complaint but that's just NBA basketball. People admit Lebron is talented but it's hard to view him as the greatest player ever with so many knocks on him. To deny he's the top talent NOW is completely different and refusing to acknowledge facts. He has plenty of things to hate him for, his skills aren't a legit reason.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Sanders, kinda snarky, just saying.

It was intentional.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

I can't energetically disagree with you, nor put you on Ignore, because you are a moderator. Pardon me, a Super Moderator. You own the rules and apply them as you see fit. It's not a fair fight.

Besides, you didn't answer my question. I know that the NBA rules have changed. I asked whether you really think there is less contact than there used to be. You referred me to a subnormal fanboi broadcasting from his mother's basement.



What I learned from the website is that there aren't that many people interested in what I have to say. I'm okay with that. I believe the number to be greater than zero, which is why I continue to post here. You aren't among them, which is also okay. I suggest that you put me on Ignore, and refer to my posts only if someone complains about them and you feel the need to censor me again.

I actually don't censor you. There are a few long time posters in here that I just refuse to moderate.

You are one of them.

 

[elindholm]

To bring it back to hoops, I think there is much less hand-checking. I was watching the Cavs-raptors game and noticed siakam kind of gently brushing Lebron with one hand repeatedly. Like he wanted to hand check him and then would remember he couldn’t. That’s a dance I see often in today’s nba. Wouldn’t have been necessary in Jordan’s era.

It's a lot less consistent. I don't know whether it's that most players haven't "earned the respect" that allows them to get away with it, or whether mugging someone 25 feet from the basket requires slightly different kinds of contact from how it used to. I agree that aggressive hand-checking outside the arc is less common, but I think that there's just as much overall contact as there used to be, maybe even more. And since Jordan was never a deep threat anyway (less than 600 career threes, at 33%), I don't think his game would be much different today.

 

[BC867]

I wonder how Lebron will be viewed when he decides to retire. I remember hating Jordan when he played for the Bulls because they were damn near unbeatable and watching him in the finals against us where he was unstoppable was heartbreaking. I know Suns fans weren't the only people to dislike him either, he toasted numerous teams and kept a number of franchises from winning titles. I remember people bashing him for being a ball hog also but he was clutch and won games, even Bulls fans would admit he would hog the ball but they didn't care because it worked. Now that Jordan is done killing teams with his play he only kills the Hornets by his poor management of that team as their owner. Everyone looks back at him as one of the best athletes ever, from any sport, and one of the greatest basketball players of all time, if not one of THE greatest.

Compare that to the complaints about Lebron, he can't win without creating superteams. He plays GM for his teams and gets coaches fired. Coaches don't really run the teams he's on, Lebron does. His attitude and ego keep him from being coachable. Him and his agent push his teams for too much control, even getting his friends overpaid and then he complains the team isn't putting the right talent around him and they need to spend more. He flops all the time. He travels on the majority of his drives. He gets too many "superstar calls" in his favor. He's not clutch, although he seems to have solved that this year. He always passes up the big shot, which is another thing he's changed this year. It's taken him 14 years to make changes to those things, I think too much time has past for him to be viewed that much differently in regards to the complaints about him being clutch or passing up big shots. He flops all the time. He travels on the majority of his drives. He gets too many "superstar calls" in his favor.

Will those complaints stick around when he's retires? I don't know but I think most of them will. He's not hated for crushing other teams like Jordan, I feel safe making that assumption. He's hated for a number of reasons but I don't think there is a fanbase out there that hates him for owning them repeatedly outside of Toronto, who aren't very good anyways. Lebron isn't stopping them from winning titles. The only complaint about Lebron that I remember hearing about Jordan is the traveling complaint but that's just NBA basketball. People admit Lebron is talented but it's hard to view him as the greatest player ever with so many knocks on him. To deny he's the top talent NOW is completely different and refusing to acknowledge facts. He has plenty of things to hate him for, his skills aren't a legit reason.

In discussing who will be regarded as the better superstar or, as the title of this thread says, "If MJ and LeBron switched, who would of [edit: have] been more successful?", why is the word "hate" being used so much? That sounds personal rather than objective.

When I was 13 and living in New Jersey and rooting for the Dodgers, I used the word "hate" because of what the Yankees did to Brooklyn in '47, '49, '52, '53 and '56. 'Beat 'em in the World Series. (Although we beat them once in '55.)

But as I was approaching adulthood, I realized that I didn't hate the Yankees. I respected them. And wished that the Dodgers could have developed a starting pitching staff as good as the Yankees, which was the difference between the two teams.

How can the evaluation of Michael vs. LeBron be based on "hate"? Unless one of them was out and out dirty? I guess it is what our society has come to.

I voted for MJ (as I guess you did) because I believe that, if they switched places, he still would have been more successful.

And that is coming from a fan who has never been happy with most of the Suns talent over the years being in the backcourt.

 

[Russ Smith]

If you put Jordan in an era where you can't hand check him...wow

That's why it's such a hard debate, people played Jordan so much more physically than LeBron gets played, now LeBron is much stronger, but he gets FT's all the time on plays that just weren't fouls when Jordan played.

It's also hard for me because I come at it with a basic assumption that Jordan was most likely clean, and LeBron is most likely a PED user, and anybody that knows anything about me knows that colors my perception of a player.

I guess the other thing with Jordan is he missed some of his peak years playing baseball or likely would have had even more titles.

LeBron this year has been nothing short of brilliant in the post season, absolutely dominant.

 

[Russ Smith]

The weird thing about a LeBron is his greatest feat might have been taking that first GS team to six games without Love and Kyrie for 5 games, two of them he won singlehandedly.

But beating the Spurs in 7 for title number 2 was pretty epic. That was a legit Battle Of The Titans that he came away the winner of.

Here’s the bottom line... if Bird used to be possibly talked about the greaTest of all time while winning three titles with those LOADED teams, I.T makes me feel comfortable to say LeBron is top three or two at this point.

Beating the Warriors from down 3-1 was IMO his greatest feat. It had never been done before.

 

[SirStefan32]

Chris and Eric... cut it out, guys. You are both veterans and stars of this forum. This bickering really doesn't fit either one of you.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I always feel like the better comp for LeBron is

Beating the Warriors from down 3-1 was IMO his greatest feat. It had never been done before.

I actually think LeBron with Dellavadova and JR Smith as his main sidekicks taking two games from the Warriors in the Finals was more impressive. He literally had NO ONE around him after Kyrie busted his knee in Game 1 of that Finals and Love was long gone by then also.

 

[Finito]

It's Jordan and here's why. When Lebron really feels he can't win he quits. Look at earlier this year before they blew up the Cavs that was pathetic. Look at how passive he was against Dallas. When Charles called out Lebron about not wanting to compete he was 100% right. Lebron saying he doesn't have enough help when they had the highest payroll in league history and a roster he put together was a joke. I mean he pretty much wants to play with a stacked deck all the time.

Jordan 6-0 in NBA finals

Lebron sub .500 and a Ray Allen shot from really sucking

 

[Hoop Head]

It's also hard for me because I come at it with a basic assumption that Jordan was most likely clean, and LeBron is most likely a PED user, and anybody that knows anything about me knows that colors my perception of a player.

I've never heard of Lebron taking steroids, HGH, or any sort of PED's. Are you basing that on any sort of evidence, because I find that hard to believe. Unless rogaine is a PED, I just can't see it. He'd be risking more than virtually any other athlete if he were popped and I doubt the league would let it slide. If he came up positive for smoking pot, I could see them making that go away but not a PED.