MJ vs LeBron

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

That's why I railed against Lance Armstrong for years when it was popular to say he was clean and just being picked on in a sport where everyone cheated. Part of why everyone cheated is that Lance was dominating the sport by cheating and to "keep up" everyone else escalated their cheating. I don't think the NBA is even close to cycling in regards to cheating, I mean now we know cyclists were hiding motors in their bikes to get an edge on hills, but I do think there's more PED users in the NBA than people realize and if the NBA really wanted to stop it they could by using better testing.

I've always disliked the uneven way games are officiated, it tilts games at times, and that's just another example of the league having rules they don't enforce. I'm a huge Steph Curry fan but he's getting close to full James Harden now, as Van Gundy said he falls down on almost every 3 now trying to draw a foul. The league has to stop rewarding certain players for certain behaviors that frankly aren't in the spirit of the rules.

Wtf?!? How did I miss THAT one?!?

 

[Russ Smith]

Wtf?!? How did I miss THAT one?!?

Sorry to derail but 60 minutes had a story on a guy a couple of years ago who admitted he'd invented a very small motor that fit inside the frame of the bike. They even had the 60 Minutes correspondent ride the bike, he stopped pedaling and it kept going for him. They said the general purpose was to get an edge on hills. The motor was so small it weighed under 2 pounds, but it was enough that they were able to go back and look because cycling was actually weighing bikes for several years and you could see hints of certain riders that had the same bike as everyone else on their team, but their bike weighed more. The guy didn't directly say lance was one of them but it has since come out that his was one of the bikes that was heavier, and there have been other cyclists who said they suspected it based on how Lance was doing on hills.

http://www.velonews.com/2017/01/news/cbs-news-12-riders-used-motorized-bikes-in-the-2015-tour_429741

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/60-minutes-investigates-hidden-motors-and-pro-cycling/

And to be clear I'm not even remotely suggesting what I think LeBron does is close to what went on in cycling.

 

[DevonCardsFan]

You must be high to think LeBron is greater than Jordan hahahahaha, There are only 2 good teams in a weak ass NBA, LeBron hits some shots against the Pacers and the Raptors, and you get all pumped up ready to crown him.

When Jordan was playing he damn near played against a team that had a hall of famer on every roster. LeBron is doing it in a watered down ass NBA on stacked teams there's no comparison of the times. Today's NBA is trash

 

[SirStefan32]

In my mind, the difference is always in the physicality of the game. All that anyone needs to do is look at LeBron wrong, and a foul is called. Jordan would take more of a beating in one game than LeBron takes in a full season.

 

[AzStevenCal]

In my mind, the difference is always in the physicality of the game. All that anyone needs to do is look at LeBron wrong, and a foul is called. Jordan would take more of a beating in one game than LeBron takes in a full season.

I don't really see it quite this way. IMO, Lebron gets officiated much the same as Shaq used to. There was no one in the game that got away with more fouls than Shaq did but there was no one in the league that was grabbed, hit or held as often as he was without calls. Same with Lebron, it's an embarrassment how much he gets away with but by the same token, it's amazing how much is done to him and ignored by the refs.

Most of the time Jordan was an ordinary clark kent out there. But he would ratchet up his effort and physicality at the close of periods and the refs just swallowed their whistles. Most of his special treatment occurred during those moments. Like other superstars, he benefitted from special treatment throughout the game but for me, it only stood out during the critical moments of the game.

 

[SirStefan32]

Yeah, I disagree. If anyone gets near James, they are called for a foul. I remember Jordan routinely having defenders slap his hands, bump him, hold on to him with both hands, run him through intentional moving screens all the time.

 

[Russ Smith]

I don't really see it quite this way. IMO, Lebron gets officiated much the same as Shaq used to. There was no one in the game that got away with more fouls than Shaq did but there was no one in the league that was grabbed, hit or held as often as he was without calls. Same with Lebron, it's an embarrassment how much he gets away with but by the same token, it's amazing how much is done to him and ignored by the refs.

Most of the time Jordan was an ordinary clark kent out there. But he would ratchet up his effort and physicality at the close of periods and the refs just swallowed their whistles. Most of his special treatment occurred during those moments. Like other superstars, he benefitted from special treatment throughout the game but for me, it only stood out during the critical moments of the game.

NBA officials are just impossible to understand. Last night for example well into the 3rd quarter, NO had shot 3 total Ft's, and Green and Looney were hammering on Davis including the play where they called a charge on Davis when Looney appeared to actually pull him down as he lost balance.

Then we get that sequence where Curry cuts through the lane, holiday pushes him out of bounds with 2 hands, the ref is right there, Curry nearly ran into him after getting pushed, no call. Curry goes nuts. next time down Curry gets grabbed from behind by Rondo, throws up a 1 hander, no call, again he goes nuts. next time down Moore grabs Curry by the jersey and they call the foul just as Green and rondo are getting into another face off. Gee I wonder why players get into scraps, because they allow all teh crap that had gone on earlier.

There was a play near the end of the game that I can't believe the TNT guys missed, during the run by NO they ran a high ball screen with Holiday throwing to a cutting Mirotic for a layup that cut the lead to 11 and finally got close enough you could see Steve Kerr get nervous. the play in question was positively hilarious because the reason Mirotic was so open is the other NO guard(Can't remember if it was Moore or Rondo) just grabbed Kevon Looney around the waist and held him. The refs were right there, Looney had this look on his face like you can't seriously tell me you didn't see that.

in the course of a game what's a foul and what's not changes constantly depending on the score. It's so often that the team behind suddenly is allowed to foul. NO shot more FT's in the 4th quarter than the first 3 combined, for 3 quarters it wasn't a foul, then in the 4th Davis was suddenly being fouled every time. And to be clear, they were all fouls, they just weren't being called earlier in the game which was part of why the game got so one sided. Just seemed to me like the refs were making sure the Warriors were going to win, but then late they decided to make the game a bit closer by going the other way.

 

[AzStevenCal]

NBA officials are just impossible to understand.

I've been watching the game a long time and IMO this is by far the worst season of officiating I've ever seen. And it's not just the fouls that they call or ignore. So much goaltending, traveling, stepping or dribbling out of bounds and so on. Their job has been made almost impossible by all the player, coach and even fan manipulation that goes on but even that fails to explain the missed black and white calls.

 

[Mainstreet]

NBA officials are just impossible to understand. Last night for example well into the 3rd quarter, NO had shot 3 total Ft's, and Green and Looney were hammering on Davis including the play where they called a charge on Davis when Looney appeared to actually pull him down as he lost balance.

Then we get that sequence where Curry cuts through the lane, holiday pushes him out of bounds with 2 hands, the ref is right there, Curry nearly ran into him after getting pushed, no call. Curry goes nuts. next time down Curry gets grabbed from behind by Rondo, throws up a 1 hander, no call, again he goes nuts. next time down Moore grabs Curry by the jersey and they call the foul just as Green and rondo are getting into another face off. Gee I wonder why players get into scraps, because they allow all teh crap that had gone on earlier.

There was a play near the end of the game that I can't believe the TNT guys missed, during the run by NO they ran a high ball screen with Holiday throwing to a cutting Mirotic for a layup that cut the lead to 11 and finally got close enough you could see Steve Kerr get nervous. the play in question was positively hilarious because the reason Mirotic was so open is the other NO guard(Can't remember if it was Moore or Rondo) just grabbed Kevon Looney around the waist and held him. The refs were right there, Looney had this look on his face like you can't seriously tell me you didn't see that.

in the course of a game what's a foul and what's not changes constantly depending on the score. It's so often that the team behind suddenly is allowed to foul. NO shot more FT's in the 4th quarter than the first 3 combined, for 3 quarters it wasn't a foul, then in the 4th Davis was suddenly being fouled every time. And to be clear, they were all fouls, they just weren't being called earlier in the game which was part of why the game got so one sided. Just seemed to me like the refs were making sure the Warriors were going to win, but then late they decided to make the game a bit closer by going the other way.

For as long as I can remember, the referees should call the game and forget about who gets preferential treatment.

 

[leclerc]

...also getting two extra steps while driving before committing an uncalled offensive foul? Bummer.

This plus flopping and getting the whistle while his oversized tank body goes tumbling. Jordan bothered me because he was so good almost impossible to beat, while this guy and other superstars of today get superstar treatment from the refs and the league... To the point where it is almost predictable who will win in a playoff series. It's the team with the most stars and popularity. It just gets boring.

 

[TJ]

This plus flopping and getting the whistle while his oversized tank body goes tumbling. Jordan bothered me because he was so good almost impossible to beat, while this guy and other superstars of today get superstar treatment from the refs and the league... To the point where it is almost predictable who will win in a playoff series. It's the team with the most stars and popularity. It just gets boring.

Ever hear of the "Jordan Rules?" Because you wouldn't be making this statement if you have.

 

[TJ]

MJ is the GOAT, but anyone who immediately dismisses this argument is either an idiot or a hater. Lebron is insanely talented and has the physique of a Greek god. I wish Lebron had played with a Pop/Phil-type of coach instead of jabronis like Brown, Blatt, and Lue to level the playing field between he and Jordan. Don't get it twisted - Jordan wouldn't have six rings without Phil.

The margin between MJ and Lebron is very, very slim

 

[TJ]

Jordan 6-0 in NBA finals

Lebron sub .500 and a Ray Allen shot from really sucking

Let's also include that Jordan needed Pippen and Phil Jackson to even get out of the first round.

The Finals argument is dumb. It implies that Lebron would be better served missing the playoffs entirely than making it to the Finals. Would Lebron be better if he were 1-0 in the Finals?

 

[TJ]

I can't remember which book it is in, but Michael Jordan tried to do what Lebron was successful at a few times and that's influence personnel moves. Reinsdorf told MJ to pound sand. The MJ legacy probably changes had the Bulls gave him power to make significant personnel and coaching moves. Look at how well his Charlotte franchise is operated....

 

[leclerc]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan_Rules

"to play him tough, to physically challenge him and to vary its defenses so as to try to throw him off balance."

I'm 40+ so I watched quite a bit of Magic, Bird, Jordan, and the (for me) golden age of basketball.

 

[Superbone]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan_Rules

"to play him tough, to physically challenge him and to vary its defenses so as to try to throw him off balance."

I'm 40+ so I watched quite a bit of Magic, Bird, Jordan, and the (for me) golden age of basketball.

Yeah, I was going to say that the Jordan Rules were how the players handle Jordan (roughly), NOT how the refs and league handle him. The Jordan Rules hurt TJ's argument, not help him.

 

[TJ]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan_Rules

"to play him tough, to physically challenge him and to vary its defenses so as to try to throw him off balance."

I'm 40+ so I watched quite a bit of Magic, Bird, Jordan, and the (for me) golden age of basketball.

Yeah, I was going to say that the Jordan Rules were how the players handle Jordan (roughly), NOT how the refs and league handle him. The Jordan Rules hurt TJ's argument, not help him.

I was referring to the colloquial reference to Jordan’s preferential treatment by the refs, which was very evident especially with Jordan’s penchant for traveling many times when he drove to ththe basket. Applied to Kobe, applies to LeBron.

Frankly, I’m stunned anyone who’s watched basketball in ththe “Golden Ages” would say Jordan never got the benefit of the doubt from officials.

 

[BC867]

I was referring to the colloquial reference to Jordan’s preferential treatment by the refs, which was very evident especially with Jordan’s penchant for traveling many times when he drove to the basket. Applied to Kobe, applies to LeBron.

Frankly, I’m stunned anyone who’s watched basketball in ththe “Golden Ages” would say Jordan never got the benefit of the doubt from officials.

Right! All superstars do. Therefore, it is not a factor in deciding between Michael and LeBron.

And, as I posted previously, how can you choose the "most successful player" . . .

(A) Regardless of the position they played.
(B) Regardless of the other players on their teams.
(C) Regardless of the competition in the rest of the League.

 

[leclerc]

I didn't say he didn't get calls I said to me it seems it has gotten worse, but memory is a funny thing. Those times were golden though. Thin legs, lanky dudes, small shorts, flat shoes, mustaches, afros, no tattoos.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I was referring to the colloquial reference to Jordan’s preferential treatment by the refs, which was very evident especially with Jordan’s penchant for traveling many times when he drove to ththe basket. Applied to Kobe, applies to LeBron.

Frankly, I’m stunned anyone who’s watched basketball in ththe “Golden Ages” would say Jordan never got the benefit of the doubt from officials.

seconded.

I think Jordan is still the greatest basketball player ever and the assassin that LeBron's never quite been, but to say Jordan get a bunch of calls is patently ridiculous.

 

[Errntknght]

seconded.

I think Jordan is still the greatest basketball player ever and the assassin that LeBron's never quite been, but to say Jordan get a bunch of calls is patently ridiculous.

It looks like you need to edit another word in that last sentence... othereise you have mismatched tense.

 

[HeHasRosen]

No offense but i think theres a little 2 much "back in my day"/ "get off my lawn" going on in this thread. The question was, if they switched places who would be more successful. I voted Lebron for a few reasons. But to think its not close is a bit ridiculous imo. I still think the G.O.A.T. is MJ merely because of the hardware. But Lebron is obsessed with surpassing him and when its all said and done, i think he will

 

[Mainstreet]

No offense but i think theres a little 2 much "back in my day"/ "get off my lawn" going on in this thread. The question was, if they switched places who would be more successful. I voted Lebron for a few reasons. But to think its not close is a bit ridiculous imo. I still think the G.O.A.T. is MJ merely because of the hardware. But Lebron is obsessed with surpassing him and when its all said and done, i think he will

It has nothing to do about hardware. Michael Jordon was that good.

 

[HeHasRosen]

It has nothing to do about hardware. Michael Jordon was that good.

Cmon it has something to do with that? Thats usually the first thing brought up

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

I simply think that Jordan would be completely unguardable under today's rules and thus would look like an even better player today than he did in the 90s. He would also be a much better outside shooter in today's game because he would put more emphasis on that part of his game. The three point shot wasn't as highly thought of back then.