MJ vs LeBron

[GatorAZ]

It's Jordan and here's why. When Lebron really feels he can't win he quits. Look at earlier this year before they blew up the Cavs that was pathetic. Look at how passive he was against Dallas. When Charles called out Lebron about not wanting to compete he was 100% right. Lebron saying he doesn't have enough help when they had the highest payroll in league history and a roster he put together was a joke. I mean he pretty much wants to play with a stacked deck all the time.

Jordan 6-0 in NBA finals

Lebron sub .500 and a Ray Allen shot from really sucking

Prior to the Ray Allen 3-pointer Lebron had scored 17 straight points. Then had a triple double in game 7.

 

[Russ Smith]

I've never heard of Lebron taking steroids, HGH, or any sort of PED's. Are you basing that on any sort of evidence, because I find that hard to believe. Unless rogaine is a PED, I just can't see it. He'd be risking more than virtually any other athlete if he were popped and I doubt the league would let it slide. If he came up positive for smoking pot, I could see them making that go away but not a PED.

I don't want to derail the thread but there has been a significant amount of speculation over the years about his doctor in Miami, and Bill Simmons among others has several times alluded to LeBron's "vacations" there and timing to surges in his performance. And if you google pics of LeBron's head then and now you'll see his head has done the exact same thing Barry Bonds' head did. There's a very specific known side effect of using HGH where your head grows bigger because HGH stimulates the growth that would otherwise stop in most people.

I think the most public rumor was the doctor, Bosch, who got busted and had a list of patients with nicknames that some ex employee talked up. She said a guy with the last name of Paul used to come in about once a month and pick up "items" for a guy whose nickname in the records book was LJ, she believed it to be LeBron's best friend Rich Paul. That rumor was pretty public for a bit and then nothing came of it.

You have to know my history these days I assume almost anybody that has rumors around them is in fact using because that's been the reality.

On the last point I agree he has lots to lose but so has virtually every famous PED user in history.

 

[Hoop Head]

I don't want to derail the thread but there has been a significant amount of speculation over the years about his doctor in Miami, and Bill Simmons among others has several times alluded to LeBron's "vacations" there and timing to surges in his performance. And if you google pics of LeBron's head then and now you'll see his head has done the exact same thing Barry Bonds' head did. There's a very specific known side effect of using HGH where your head grows bigger because HGH stimulates the growth that would otherwise stop in most people.

I think the most public rumor was the doctor, Bosch, who got busted and had a list of patients with nicknames that some ex employee talked up. She said a guy with the last name of Paul used to come in about once a month and pick up "items" for a guy whose nickname in the records book was LJ, she believed it to be LeBron's best friend Rich Paul. That rumor was pretty public for a bit and then nothing came of it.

You have to know my history these days I assume almost anybody that has rumors around them is in fact using because that's been the reality.

On the last point I agree he has lots to lose but so has virtually every famous PED user in history.

I had no idea there was speculation regarding him doping, I'll have to look into it further. Personally I didn't mind that MLB players juiced in the 90's because virtually everyone was doing it and the league did nothing to curb the use of steroids. They barely turned a blind eye to it because of the high ratings and attendance that guys like Sosa and Maguire brought in.

In regard to Lebron doing them, it would surprise me all that much because he's a top athlete in an era that is recovering from the steroid days still. If he was doing them regularly I doubt he has Rich Paul picking them up because seeing an agent go to a doctor like that would raise a ton of red flags and he'd get all of his players put under a microscope. That just seems odd, to have someone like Paul pick them up. He surely has people that could make the pickup for him that he trusts as much as Paul without Paul's profile.

The NBA hasn't had the issues other sports leagues have but could that be because fewer players are using, the players know how to hide it better, or the league doesn't test as thoroughly. Part of why I doubt Lebron is on them has to do with his involvement with Team USA in the past. The NBA testing may be a joke but the Olympics aren't. Surely they tested the basketball players also and would have popped one of the players by now, if nothing else, if the NBA was actively avoiding the issue themselves.

Lebron has a ton to lose, of course, but the NBA does to. I know Lebron isn't the most liked NBA player but he is a huge draw. Wherever he plays on the road typically sells out, the only reason people watch the Cavs is because of him, and the MJ vs LBJ debate flies out the window if he's busted.

 

[Russ Smith]

I had no idea there was speculation regarding him doping, I'll have to look into it further. Personally I didn't mind that MLB players juiced in the 90's because virtually everyone was doing it and the league did nothing to curb the use of steroids. They barely turned a blind eye to it because of the high ratings and attendance that guys like Sosa and Maguire brought in.

In regard to Lebron doing them, it would surprise me all that much because he's a top athlete in an era that is recovering from the steroid days still. If he was doing them regularly I doubt he has Rich Paul picking them up because seeing an agent go to a doctor like that would raise a ton of red flags and he'd get all of his players put under a microscope. That just seems odd, to have someone like Paul pick them up. He surely has people that could make the pickup for him that he trusts as much as Paul without Paul's profile.

The NBA hasn't had the issues other sports leagues have but could that be because fewer players are using, the players know how to hide it better, or the league doesn't test as thoroughly. Part of why I doubt Lebron is on them has to do with his involvement with Team USA in the past. The NBA testing may be a joke but the Olympics aren't. Surely they tested the basketball players also and would have popped one of the players by now, if nothing else, if the NBA was actively avoiding the issue themselves.

Lebron has a ton to lose, of course, but the NBA does to. I know Lebron isn't the most liked NBA player but he is a huge draw. Wherever he plays on the road typically sells out, the only reason people watch the Cavs is because of him, and the MJ vs LBJ debate flies out the window if he's busted.

The employee who talked said one of the clients initials was JN. When asked who that was she said Jameer Nelson, when asked how she came to that conclusion she said, because Jameer Nelson came into the office more than once to pick up products. Yep the player himself came and got them. Same source so she could have been wrong or lying but she said he flat out came into the office himself and bought PED's in cash.

Bosch has been caught up in several Baseball PED scandals, the doctor, not Chris Bosh the player. And remember both Turkoglu and Rashard Lewis were on those Magic teams in 2009 that Bill Simmons openly stated had a PED use problem. Both of those guys wound up testing positive, for PED's, Nelson was on the same team. And Nelson and LJ were the 2 NBA players the former Biogenesis employee stated she knew were clients.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I've never heard of Lebron taking steroids, HGH, or any sort of PED's.

This surprises me, I had thought it was fairly common knowledge.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I'd go Jordan and it's still not that close AFAIC (with James). The only argument I have for Michael maybe not being the greatest of all time is Wilt Chamberlain.

 

[BC867]

I'd go Jordan and it's still not that close AFAIC (with James). The only argument I have for Michael maybe not being the greatest of all time is Wilt Chamberlain.

'Good point, based on his stats. So far beyond anyone else's.

The Stilt's major drawback was that he didn't lead his teams to championships. Bill Russell was on championship teams and played good defense against Wilt although he was smaller and lighter. I guess positioning is everything. And, yes, Russ was on teams masterminded by the genius, Red Auerbach.

 

[Phrazbit]

It's Jordan and here's why. When Lebron really feels he can't win he quits. Look at earlier this year before they blew up the Cavs that was pathetic. Look at how passive he was against Dallas. When Charles called out Lebron about not wanting to compete he was 100% right. Lebron saying he doesn't have enough help when they had the highest payroll in league history and a roster he put together was a joke. I mean he pretty much wants to play with a stacked deck all the time.

Jordan 6-0 in NBA finals

Lebron sub .500 and a Ray Allen shot from really sucking

I'm still on the "Jordan is the greatest" wagon, but saying LeBron quits when the chips are down runs contrary to what has happened the last several years. If he quit when things got tough then he wouldn't have beaten the Warriors and he wouldn't be dragging this lousy Cavs team on another deep run.

Now, if we do want to talk about a guy who actually quit when the going got tough... Kobe Bryant...

 

[Carolinacacti]

I take Lebron because of his three point shooting. Unreal how many ways he can beat you.

 

[Russ Smith]

I'd go Jordan and it's still not that close AFAIC (with James). The only argument I have for Michael maybe not being the greatest of all time is Wilt Chamberlain.

Yeah I'm too young to have seen Wilt so he's not in my list just for that reason.

on LeBron, stat out today he's shooting 52.3% this year from 28 feet or further, that's tops in the NBA for players who've taken at least 15. So he's out Stephing, Steph Curry from 28 feet. To be fair, teams guard Steph as he crosses halfcourt, teams don't do that to LeBron so he gets open 28 footers, Steph gets contested ones, but that's remarkable how good of a shooter LeBron has become.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I take Lebron because of his three point shooting. Unreal how many ways he can beat you.

When Michael played coaches viewed the 3 point shot as more of a gimmick than a tactic. I have no doubt that he would have been a great 3 point shooter under today's rules.

 

[elindholm]

When Michael played coaches viewed the 3 point shot as more of a gimmick than a tactic. I have no doubt that he would have been a great 3 point shooter under today's rules.

??

During the 90s, you usually needed at least 120 3FG makes in a season to qualify for the top ten -- that's 1.5 per game. These days, it's more like 180, but that's not a huge difference.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/fg3_top_10.html

Jordan cracked 100 only twice: in 1995-96 and 1996-97, when the distance was shorter. Those were also his first- and third-best years in terms of accuracy from deep.

Jordan's limited effectiveness as a three-point shooter isn't because the shot wasn't a league-wide weapon. It's because he wasn't good at it.

 

[Finito]

I'm still on the "Jordan is the greatest" wagon, but saying LeBron quits when the chips are down runs contrary to what has happened the last several years. If he quit when things got tough then he wouldn't have beaten the Warriors and he wouldn't be dragging this lousy Cavs team on another deep run.

Now, if we do want to talk about a guy who actually quit when the going got tough... Kobe Bryant...

He beat the Warriors because Steph Curry got hurt and Draymond got suspended lets be honest and go look at his play before they blew up the team this year. I'm not the only one pointing this out.

And I like Lebron but he ain't Jordan sorry

 

[Cheesebeef]

He beat the Warriors because Steph Curry got hurt and Draymond got suspended lets be honest and go look at his play before they blew up the team this year. I'm not the only one pointing this out.

And I like Lebron but he ain't Jordan sorry

No one said jack squat when the Warriors beat them in 6 the previous year without Love AND Kyrie.

And no one said squat about Stef’s injuries when he played a 7 game series prior the Finals when the Warriors came back from 3-1 against OKC.

Trying to devalue that 2016 Title is silly. Draymond missed one game in the series and Curry was playing throughout the previous two rounds.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

??

During the 90s, you usually needed at least 120 3FG makes in a season to qualify for the top ten -- that's 1.5 per game. These days, it's more like 180, but that's not a huge difference.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/fg3_top_10.html

Jordan cracked 100 only twice: in 1995-96 and 1996-97, when the distance was shorter. Those were also his first- and third-best years in terms of accuracy from deep.

Jordan's limited effectiveness as a three-point shooter isn't because the shot wasn't a league-wide weapon. It's because he wasn't good at it.

I don’t buy that. I don’t think he concentrated on making it a weapon because he didn’t need it. And 50% more makes IS a huge difference. I can’t believe you’d actually argue that the 3 point shot isn’t an enormous difference in today’s nba from the 90s.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I think it’s safe to say Raptors fans HATE LeBron after he’s beaten the ever living snot out of them for the last three years.

And Boston won’t be far behind unless Stevens’ witch doctory-coaching somehow figures out how to beat them after LeBron has buried them the last four times they’ve played in the playoffs.

Such a shame Kyrie is out. That could have been an EPIC grudge match in the ECF.

 

[elindholm]

I can’t believe you’d actually argue that the 3 point shot isn’t an enormous difference in today’s nba from the 90s.

"Enormous" is subjective. We could agree exactly on what the difference is, but disagree on whether that difference should be termed "enormous."

In 1997-98, the average NBA team had about 13 three-point attempts per game. In 2013-14, which was the latest I could easily find numbers for, it was 21. It's probably higher now. So overall three-point attempts have roughly doubled, which I'd definitely agree is an enormous change.

But that wasn't the question. The question was whether it was a major weapon for individual players. I maintain that the difference there is smaller. This year, probable MVP James Harden led the league with 265 threes made. During the years of Jordan's last three titles (1995-98), the league leader in threes had 267, 229, and 192. Again, we can argue semantics, but I'd have a hard time calling that "enormous."

The Jordan Mythology gets so out of hand that it asks us not only to anoint him as the Greatest Ever, but also to eliminate any possibility of him ever being surpassed. Like any player, he had weaknesses, but those get explained away with bizarre alibis. Three-point shooting was a weakness for Jordan, and if he had been better at it, he would have been even more impressive. To me, that's self-evident, but it weakens his myth, which is why it draws such knee-jerk opposition.

 

[BC867]

Comparing players at different positions, playing in different times, with different team philosophies, is apples-and-oranges. How can you ever compare a Forward to a Guard? Compared to baseball where every position player has his turn to come up to bat. Even then, how can you compare a star Pitcher to a star position player?

It will always be matters of opinion. There is no right or wrong. 'Very unlikely that either camp will win over the other.

Until the draft, as the saying goes, "It must be a slow news week."

But it has been fun reading all your opinions about Michael and LeBron (and Wilt Chamberlain).

 

[GatorAZ]

Comparing players at different positions, playing in different times, with different team philosophies, is apples-and-oranges. How can you ever compare a Forward to a Guard? Compared to baseball where every position player has his turn to come up to bat. Even then, how can you compare a star Pitcher to a star position player?

It will always be matters of opinion. There is no right or wrong. 'Very unlikely that either camp will win over the other.

Until the draft, as the saying goes, "It must be a slow news week."

But it has been fun reading all your opinions about Michael and LeBron (and Wilt Chamberlain).

It’s like comparing Jerry Rice vs Walter Payton.

 

[Western Font]

Another good way to look at MJ is this: the 1992 Dream Team is the greatest basketball all-star squad ever assembled, hands down, but is also a lineup of his victims.

Ewing (‘89 EC semis, ‘92 EC semis, ‘93 ECF, ‘96 EC semis)
Drexler (‘92 NBA finals)
Stockton (‘97 NBA finals)
Malone (‘97 NBA finals)
Mullin (‘98 ECF)
Barkley (‘93 NBA finals)
Magic (‘91 NBA finals)

Of the rest, Pippen was a teammate, Robinson didn’t make the finals until after MJ retired the second time, and Laettner was a token college player (though The Bulls beat his Hawks in the ‘97 EC semis).

Only Bird was undefeated against MJ in the playoffs, but that was during MJ’s first two years, and Bird’s career wasn’t long enough for meaningful competition during MJs title runs.

Dream Team pariah Isiah Thomas was 2-1 against Jordan in the playoffs, but Jordan ended the Pistons three-peat attempt in the ‘91 ECF. And speaking of hand-checking etc., there hasn’t been an equivalent of the Pistons’ “Jordan Rules” for LeBron.

MJ also beat post-Dream Team greats such as Shaq/Penny in ‘96 ECF and the Payton/Kemp Sonics in the ‘96 NBA finals. And he also scored the winning shot in the NBA championship game, of course.

If you HAVE to choose, by contrast, I just don’t think LeBron has overcome his competition in the same way. He joined Wade in Miami, he didn’t beat him. He did beat the Spurs and Warriors in the finals, but he’s also lost to them, too (badly, in five games each and another sweep to the Spurs during his first Cleveland stint). He’s also lost to Dirk in the finals.

Even if you do rank LeBron #1, that aspect of Jordan’s career is unbelievably impressive.

 

[Western Font]

The PED possibilities bother me. Regardless of sport or era, if it’s against the rules it’s concealed, and therefore you don’t know who’s doing it and to what extent. It also means that the rich just get richer, with star players having better access and resources, as well as benefitting from the sport’s complicity to protect its top commodities.

That’s life, you might say, and of course it is. But people don’t watch sports to mirror the corruption of everyday life. Well, maybe some fans who just want to win at all costs (and probably choose allegiances accordingly) do - but for anyone who likes genuine competition on a level playing field, the idea of a star getting to make the most money while taking the best PEDs and also getting two extra steps while driving before committing an uncalled offensive foul? Bummer.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

The PED possibilities bother me. Regardless of sport or era, if it’s against the rules it’s concealed, and therefore you don’t know who’s doing it and to what extent. It also means that the rich just get richer, with star players having better access and resources, as well as benefitting from the sport’s complicity to protect its top commodities.

That’s life, you might say, and of course it is. But people don’t watch sports to mirror the corruption of everyday life. Well, maybe some fans who just want to win at all costs (and probably choose allegiances accordingly) do - but for anyone who likes genuine competition on a level playing field, the idea of a star getting to make the most money while taking the best PEDs and also getting two extra steps while driving before committing an uncalled offensive foul? Bummer.

For me it’s simple . . . PEDs is cheating. I don’t care if most are cheating. It’s cheating. Sports is supposed to be about competition. Not cheating. It’s why I took umbrage with the spurs dirty play years ago. That’s not within the rules or the spirit of the game. I realize that’s pollyanic, but not every athlete takes PEDs and so those that do are cheaters and losers imo.

 

[Hoop Head]

I don't understand knocking Jordan for 3pt shooting when he's really not that far behind Lebron when you compare their percentages. The style in the league has changed also, with teams attempting more than double the 3pt shots now compared to Jordan's prime. Picking their 8th seasons to compare how their teams shot 3's and it's night and day from now to then. The 91-92 Bulls shot 5.5 3pt shots a game and were 21st in the NBA in attempts. The 2010-11 Heat shot 18 a game and were 15th in the league in attempts. Teams shoot almost triple the amount of 3's now compared to Jordan's prime so 3pt shooting wasn't as important, 5.5 vs 18 is huge difference.

MJ is a career 32.7% 3pt shooter while Lebron is 34.4% shooter. MJ only averaged 1.7 attempts a game while Lebron averages 4.1. So Lebron is a better shooter from behind the arc but it's not a considerable margin. In the playoffs MJ shot better, and more, upping his percentage to 33.2 on 2.5 attempts while Lebron's goes down to 32.8 on 4.6 attempts. It's a small gap but Jordan shot better from 3 than Lebron in the postseason. So their 3pt shooting is essentially a draw, IMO. Neither has that much of an advantage on the other either way so it shouldn't be used to favor either of them.

One shooting stat that hasn't been mentioned, but should be discussed when comparing the two, is their free throw percentage. Lebron is a poor free throw shooter for a "star". He's shot below 70% from the line twice during the regular season and twice during the postseason. In the playoffs the last 2 postseasons he's shot under 70%, in 2015-16 he shot 66% and 2016-17 he shot 69%. For his career he's 74.2% on 9.2 attempts in the playoffs and 73.9% on 8.1 attempts in the regular season.

Jordan on the line wasn't guaranteed but I don't recall seeing him miss clutch FT's like Lebron has. He shot 83.5% on 8.2 attempts in the regular season and 82.8 on 9.9 attempts in the playoffs. Jordan only shot below 80% from the line in 2 seasons, his last in Chicago where he shot 78.4% and his first in Washington, at 79.0%. He only shot below 80% once in the postseason and that was in 88-89 where he shot 79.9% on 13.5 attempts a game, which is basically 1 make away from 80%. Jordan is the much better FT shooter and unlike comparing their 3pt percentages there is an undeniable advantage for Jordan from the FT line.

 

[Western Font]

I realize that’s pollyanic, but not every athlete takes PEDs and so those that do are cheaters and losers imo.

I don’t think you even need to allow for that. Someone calling you naive, say, would be doing it only to excuse the cheating out of their own self-interest.

It doesn’t have to be about idealism, exactly: for me, cheating in pro sports is a bait-and-switch, and wastes my time as a consumer. And fearing that widespread reaction, leagues both institute testing policies, and allow for pretty easy circumvention of them.

The other ethical angle, of course, is that PED use by stars has a trickle-down effect where lesser players feel they need to use to become stars, bubble players use to stay in the league, and amateurs use to try to make the league.

 

[Russ Smith]

I don’t think you even need to allow for that. Someone calling you naive, say, would be doing it only to excuse the cheating out of their own self-interest.

It doesn’t have to be about idealism, exactly: for me, cheating in pro sports is a bait-and-switch, and wastes my time as a consumer. And fearing that widespread reaction, leagues both institute testing policies, and allow for pretty easy circumvention of them.

The other ethical angle, of course, is that PED use by stars has a trickle-down effect where lesser players feel they need to use to become stars, bubble players use to stay in the league, and amateurs use to try to make the league.

That's why I railed against Lance Armstrong for years when it was popular to say he was clean and just being picked on in a sport where everyone cheated. Part of why everyone cheated is that Lance was dominating the sport by cheating and to "keep up" everyone else escalated their cheating. I don't think the NBA is even close to cycling in regards to cheating, I mean now we know cyclists were hiding motors in their bikes to get an edge on hills, but I do think there's more PED users in the NBA than people realize and if the NBA really wanted to stop it they could by using better testing.

I've always disliked the uneven way games are officiated, it tilts games at times, and that's just another example of the league having rules they don't enforce. I'm a huge Steph Curry fan but he's getting close to full James Harden now, as Van Gundy said he falls down on almost every 3 now trying to draw a foul. The league has to stop rewarding certain players for certain behaviors that frankly aren't in the spirit of the rules.