Murray to Cards a "done deal"

splitsecond

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I really wish the draft happened before we had to fork out season ticket deposits. I won't be following this team if they draft Murray and dump Rosen. If I wanted to watch midgets run around a field I would watch soccer. There is a reason why Russell Wilson is a freak and there have been no others like him. It just doesn't happen.

That being said I don't believe for a second that this is happening nor do I believe the team would bail on Rosen. Despite some people on this board and their apparently superhuman ability to project Rosen's entire career based on what he could do with the worst coached team in Cardinals history, he is still seen as the future by the majority of the fanbase and the team.
 

Shane

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I can pull up footage of numerous "statue in pocket" quarterbacks doing the same thing. Doesn't change the fact they are statues in the pocket, for better or worse. Behind a crappy OL, you might prefer a more mobile guy.

Nah just fix the OL Thats easier and more liekly way to improve the team as a whole as opposed to taking Murray.
 

Shane

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I really wish the draft happened before we had to fork out season ticket deposits. I won't be following this team if they draft Murray and dump Rosen. If I wanted to watch midgets run around a field I would watch soccer. There is a reason why Russell Wilson is a freak and there have been no others like him. It just doesn't happen.

That being said I don't believe for a second that this is happening nor do I believe the team would bail on Rosen. Despite some people on this board and their apparently superhuman ability to project Rosen's entire career based on what he could do with the worst coached team in Cardinals history, he is still seen as the future by the majority of the fanbase and the team.

You dont have to give your deposit before the draft. I waited till long after they were due last year and they just called and reminded me weeks after the fact. Its an empty threat. Them getting Rosen last year is why I changed my mind and ended up gettting them again.
 

DRM08

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Nah just fix the OL Thats easier and more liekly way to improve the team as a whole as opposed to taking Murray.

I agree. Rosen is a talented guy, but they need to build a solid OL for him. Seems too expensive to dump Rosen. They spent 1st round, 3rd round, and 5th round picks to get Rosen. They face a $8m cap hit if they trade him. What the hell are the odds of getting enough value in a trade to offset those costs? No chance.
 

splitsecond

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You dont have to give your deposit before the draft. I waited till long after they were due last year and they just called and reminded me weeks after the fact. Its an empty threat. Them getting Rosen last year is why I changed my mind and ended up gettting them again.

They used to admit they were empty threats but the last couple years were saying different... this is good to know.
 

DRM08

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The notion that it is better to have a mobile QB than fix the most important part of the entire time (the line) is incredibly frustrating.

Perhaps a better question should be asked. Why is the OL in such piss poor shape to begin with? GM's seat should maybe have some warmth as a result of that.
 

Shane

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I agree. Rosen is a talented guy, but they need to build a solid OL for him. Seems too expensive to dump Rosen. They spent 1st round, 3rd round, and 5th round picks to get Rosen. They face a $8m cap hit if they trade him. What the hell are the odds of getting enough value in a trade to offset those costs? No chance.

Precisely..
 

Ohcrap75

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I can pull up footage of numerous "statue in pocket" quarterbacks doing the same thing. Doesn't change the fact they are statues in the pocket, for better or worse. Behind a crappy OL, you might prefer a more mobile guy.

The QB Kyler is being compared to the most is Russell Wilson. He has been sacked over 40 times every season except his rookie year. Being mobile doesn't fix Oline issues
 

ajcardfan

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Perhaps a better question should be asked. Why is the OL in such piss poor shape to begin with? GM's seat should maybe have some warmth as a result of that.

Since this team has moved to Arizona, the offensive line has been the most consistent problem. Not just not good, but one of the worst in the NFL, year after year. Basically, every offseason, it's "fix the offensive line". We can't seem to be able to figure it out.
 

DRM08

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The QB Kyler is being compared to the most is Russell Wilson. He has been sacked over 40 times every season except his rookie year. Being mobile doesn't fix Oline issues

It doesn't fix it, but it helps if you are in a desperate situation.

The Cards are nowhere close to the roster depth they need to be competitive right now. The amount of draft capital and money tied up in Rosen makes it look pretty stupid to trade him. They need to build the rest of the team.
 

Russ Smith

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He couldn't have known for sure. What if A's offered Kyler $25M per year? What if he blew out his knee? At best our coach has incredibly bad judgment and doesn't have an adaptable offense as we were lead to believe


If he and Murray are as tight as the claim is I believe it's entirely likely KK knew that Murray was going to choose football. I don't think that decision came the day he announced I think he already knew and was just sticking around to see what the A's would do. Short of a guaranteed major league contract there was no way football wasn't going to be the more lucrative deal right away. Baseball of course is the longer career path. The argument is with baseball you never know, major league curveballs have destroyed a ton of can't miss prospects like Murray.
 

Russ Smith

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The GOAT is an immobile QB but nobody sacks Brady because he sees the open guy and gets rid of it. The problem is that Rosen did nothing last year that suggests he's going to be that kind of QB. He's smart enough, and he has the arm, and he obviously had horrible coaching last year, but assuming he might be a guy like Brady who doesn't get sacked much with fairly average OL's is a huge risk.

That's really the concern with Josh and I still think we're going to keep him, he didn't really progress. We were horrible it's VERY easy to say he didn't progress because there was no support system around him.

One thing nobody has really said here, the minute Fitz decided to come back that either IMO indicated he's pretty high on Rosen, or he thought we were going to get another QB and given the timing I don't think HE knew Murray was going to be in the discussion so my guess is he decided to come back knowing KK was the coach and Rosen was the QB. If he thought Rosen was good enough for one more year that has to say something?
 

b8rtm8nn

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Since this team has moved to Arizona, the offensive line has been the most consistent problem. Not just not good, but one of the worst in the NFL, year after year. Basically, every offseason, it's "fix the offensive line". We can't seem to be able to figure it out.

Not even close - under BA, the OL varied in rankings, but never the worst and a couple of times, top 10...

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol2016
 

MaoTosiFanClub

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Nah just fix the OL Thats easier and more liekly way to improve the team as a whole as opposed to taking Murray.
Not to compare Rosen to guys like McCown and Kolb, but I have honestly heard this nonsense for decades on this board.

Quality QB play with a mediocre line makes a more positive impact on a team than quality line play with a mediocre QB. I am not sure on this whole Rosen vs Murray thing, but if our guys overwhelmingly think Murray is a future HOF type QB you CANNOT pass on him.
 

WildBB

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Good article from Peter King below. I tend to think the Cardinals are trying to get Gruden and the Raiders to move into the #1 spot for Murray. There are a lot of very good reasons for Arizona to stick with Rosen.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.c...nfl-combine-notes-fmia-peter-king/?cid=fmiatw


"I do believe there’s a good chance the Cardinals take Murray number one. I can say five things about Murray and this draft after doing some legwork at the combine Friday and Saturday:

1. GM Steve Keim has final say on Cardinals personnel, including the draft. I would be shocked if today, 53 days before the draft and not having had a private workout nor a long conversation with Murray, that Keim has decided to pick Murray. “I don’t believe it for a second,” said Greg Gabriel, a veteran of 31 NFL drafts as a scout. “Could he have the lead in the clubhouse now? Sure. But nobody makes decisions like that this far out, without doing their due diligence.”

2. There are two Josh Rosen problems. Last year, Arizona traded third-round and fifth-round picks to move up five slots in the first round to choose the UCLA quarterback. So now, if they pick Murray, the Cardinals would have to dump Rosen after 13 shaky starts, and it’s a tricky proposition. “The danger is, you start to shop Rosen, and everyone knows you’re picking Murray,” said former NFL front-office man Mike Lombardi.

3. Rosen Problem 2: What could you get in trade for him? Miami (13th pick in the first round), Washingon (15), the Chargers (28) and New England (32) would be worth investigating … unless the compensation for Rosen has crashed. I asked Hall of Fame quarterback Kurt Warner, who lives in Arizona and watched Rosen last year, what he thinks the value for Rosen is. “I would give a three for Josh,” Warner said. A third-round pick. Yikes. Saturday night, I asked a renowned NFL GM what he thought the value of Rosen in trade would. “Probably a three,” the GM said. “Not what the Cardinals would think his value is.” Scary, on the surface, for Arizona. But if you’ve decided you want Murray, and you’ve decided Rosen’s not your guy, you’ve got to move on, regardless what you get for Rosen.

4. Oakland coach Jon Gruden, picking fourth, loves Murray. He and GM Mike Mayock have gone out of their way to say multiple times that Derek Carr is their quarterback. Maybe they’re rock-solid on Carr, and maybe it’ll be a moot point if the Cardinals stay at number one. But with all their draft loot in the next two drafts (five first-round picks), and with Gruden’s crush on Murray, the Raiders bear watching.

5. Murray met with 10 teams in Indianapolis, but I wouldn’t read a lot into that. The usual suspects were among the 10 teams—Arizona, Oakland, the Giants, Jacksonville, Miami and Washington. But he also met with Detroit, Seattle and the Chargers. Detroit. Hmmm. Seattle: probably just fact-finding. I’m not sure of the 10th team. But as I said, don’t read too much into that."
A 3! Forget that. It's absurd.o_O
 

WildBB

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Not to compare Rosen to guys like McCown and Kolb, but I have honestly heard this nonsense for decades on this board.

Quality QB play with a mediocre line makes a more positive impact on a team than quality line play with a mediocre QB. I am not sure on this whole Rosen vs Murray thing, but if our guys overwhelmingly think Murray is a future HOF type QB you CANNOT pass on him.
Problem is you can't have an accurate eval on Rosen yet. Last year was a disaster in more ways then he could show what he has. I mean look at DJ. He literally sucked last year. Wasn't all his problem.
 

ajcardfan

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Not even close - under BA, the OL varied in rankings, but never the worst and a couple of times, top 10...

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol2016

Yes, we have been decent a couple of times on the oline. If you think this franchise, in Arizona, doesnt have a miserable history of oline play......

I was looking at the whole. Including the last two awful.years. I dont cherry pick stats.
 

Proximo

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The blind faith the the Murray fans seem to believe is that little 5'10 under 200 lb Murray is going to defy all known facts and history and going to take the league by storm is bordering on fanaticism. Hasn't happened before and seriously doubt it happens with Murray no matter what his disciples think.

Hasn't happened before?

What do you call Russell Wilson? What do you call Fran Tarkenton?

To me your argument is incredibly stupid, he was playing in college behind 6'5 lineman and had the lowest number of passes batted down, and a very high completion percentage. The height argument is idiotic, it has not affected him college and won't all of the sudden become an issue.

Now if you want to make the argument about him running to much which might get him killed in the NFL, that is much more valid. But again, Russell Wilson is basically the same size and is known to scramble every once and a while and he is having no problems - behind very bad olines by the way.

If the guy was primarily a scrambler, I would be totally opposed to him, but he is a very good passer. Really he has the possibility of being a superior version of Mike Vick.
 

cardpa

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Here is an article about the best short QBs (6' and under) to play in the NFL. The list is short (excuse the pun).

https://nationalfootballpost.com/the-nfls-best-short-quarterbacks-of-alltime/


In the last 30 years, NFL teams selected 69 quarterbacks in the first round. Only four were listed at 6-1 or shorter: UCLA’s Cade McNown (6-1, 1999), Virginia Tech’s Michael Vick (6-0, 2001), Florida’s Rex Grossman (6-1, 2003) and Texas A&M’s Johnny Manziel (6-0, 2014).

Shorter quarterbacks don’t often get much love in the middle or later rounds, either. In the last decade, NFL teams selected 118 quarterbacks overall, only 10 of whom were 6-1 or shorter.

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And one more article relating to short QBs.

https://thebiglead.com/2017/03/03/nfl-draft-mitch-trubisky-deshone-kizer-deshaun-watson/
 

Proximo

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Not to compare Rosen to guys like McCown and Kolb, but I have honestly heard this nonsense for decades on this board.

Quality QB play with a mediocre line makes a more positive impact on a team than quality line play with a mediocre QB. I am not sure on this whole Rosen vs Murray thing, but if our guys overwhelmingly think Murray is a future HOF type QB you CANNOT pass on him.

This times 1000.

The patriots more often than not have a mediocre oline. Russel Wilson wins with a crap oline.

The oline is more important for the run game than the pass game. A good qb does not need a great oline, they need a few WR's that can get separation and 3 seconds.
 

Proximo

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Here is an article about the best short QBs (6' and under) to play in the NFL. The list is short (excuse the pun).

https://nationalfootballpost.com/the-nfls-best-short-quarterbacks-of-alltime/


In the last 30 years, NFL teams selected 69 quarterbacks in the first round. Only four were listed at 6-1 or shorter: UCLA’s Cade McNown (6-1, 1999), Virginia Tech’s Michael Vick (6-0, 2001), Florida’s Rex Grossman (6-1, 2003) and Texas A&M’s Johnny Manziel (6-0, 2014).

Shorter quarterbacks don’t often get much love in the middle or later rounds, either. In the last decade, NFL teams selected 118 quarterbacks overall, only 10 of whom were 6-1 or shorter.

You must be registered for see images attach



And one more article relating to short QBs.

https://thebiglead.com/2017/03/03/nfl-draft-mitch-trubisky-deshone-kizer-deshaun-watson/

Did you ever consider that since QB's under 6 foot are heavily discriminated against they don't get many chances to play, and that is a big part of the reason there is not many with success?

Also how many of those guys were as successful as Murray in college - basically none on your list were.
 

DRM08

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Did you ever consider that since QB's under 6 foot are heavily discriminated against they don't get many chances to play, and that is a big part of the reason there is not many with success?

Also how many of those guys were as successful as Murray in college - basically none on your list were.

Yeah, I don't think there have been many short guys who have been given the chance to play. But we could list hundreds of QB's above 6-2 that turned into mega busts.
 
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