My issue with DA

[TopGun]

So since Stephen Williams was an UDFA rookie and was passed over by multiple teams, we now have two players who suck?

 

[Cheesebeef]

Matt Moore was an URFA in 2007, and started 3 games for the Panthers that same year.

huh... was that due to injury or conscious choice? Wasn't that the year Delhomme got hurt and Testaverde got hurt as well?

 

[Cheesebeef]

So since Stephen Williams was an UDFA rookie and was passed over by multiple teams, we now have two players who suck?

no! We have a bunch more players who suck!

 

[TopGun]

cheesebeef Ok that was a good one!!! They say the truth hurts. lol

 

[kerouac9]

So since Stephen Williams was an UDFA rookie and was passed over by multiple teams, we now have two players who suck?

More than that. Max Komar sucks, too.

Did Stephen Williams do something in the game yesterday to tell you that he belongs in this league? Because he didn't make much of an impact to my eyes. Maybe he's not the next Randy Moss.

Seriously: How good was Randy Moss? In his first two games (neither were starts), he had 10 receptions, 184 yards, and 2 TDs(!). That guy was a revelation when he entered the league. Being sent to the Raiders probably cost him a place in the pantheon of great wideouts.

 

[Cheesebeef]

cheesebeef Ok that was a good one!!! They say the truth hurts. lol

i fear we're going to have to laugh to keep from crying A LOT this season.

 

[TopGun]

i fear we're going to have to laugh to keep from crying A LOT this season.

I couldn't agree more. At least we all love our team and care what happens, and that is what makes us true fans!!!

 

[Pariah]

Is [the fans' call for Hall to start] because they want the season to be terrible so we can spend our high draft pick on Levi Brown's replacement/a pass rushing OLB, or because they think that Max Hall can win football games as a UDFA rookie?

I more of the latter, but that's not exactly accurate either. They (we) want Hall to start because we know what we have in Anderson. He's not going to start changing his stripes six years into his NFL career, so it's difficult to be told we have to take our lumps with him. There's no light at the end of the tunnel.

Starting Hall will cost us games (but significantly more than would starting DA? I dunno), but at least there's an upside: either he progresses as the season goes on and we have something for the future, or he proves the league right in not being drafted. Either way, we're better off knowing sooner rather than later because Anderson isn't even a band-aid; he's salt in a wound.

If I thought that the team had a shot do do anything with DA--maybe the defense and run game could let him play more of a manager role, or his big plays were outweighing his inaccuracy--I'd say stick with him. But the offense is based on the pass and the defense is not showing they can stop teams enough to be relied upon.

JMHO

 

[Russ Smith]

Some people that I have a lot of respect for keep saying this. Is this because they want the season to be terrible so we can spend our high draft pick on Levi Brown's replacement/a pass rushing OLB, or because they think that Max Hall can win football games as a UDFA rookie?

I hope it's the first, because Max Hall sucks. He looked good against the scrubbiest of the Washington Redskins' scrubs (seriously, Shanahan didn't dress his third tight end in that game). I'm sure it's fun watching the little kid scamper around and try and play with the big boys, but let's be real about it. He's a UDFA whom every team in the NFL passed over multiple times, and no team with a competitive QB situation offered him a contract, so he came to a team with two established players and a draft pick and somehow lucked his way into a #2 job.

As for Carson Palmer, I'd love to roll the dice on him, but I don't see that strong arm anymore.

Mainly because I already know what to expect with Anderson and I don't want to go through a season watching Fitz and Breaston reach back for balls behind them or get nailed on balls too high over the middle.

I like Hall, I liked him in college, I like him now. I don't know if he's a future starter but I think he can be a Ty Detmer type QB in the NFL.

I also think having seen Warner the last few years that pure arm strength can be somewhat overrated. All things equal it's nice to have a great arm, but all things aren't equal. Some guys just have a knack. Not saying Hall will do what Warner did but if you had said in the preseason of '99 that Warner was a future HOF QB, people would have laughed at you too.

I just like that Hall seems to see the field, he may not always have the arm to get it there, but he seems to know where the ball SHOULD go. ANderson has the arm but doesn't see the field as well, and is so scatter armed he can't get it there when he does see the field.

I'm just not a believer in DA, he is what I thought he was all along, too inaccurate to be successful in the NFL.

 

[kerouac9]

I more of the latter, but that's not exactly accurate either. They (we) want Hall to start because we know what we have in Anderson. He's not going to start changing his stripes six years into his NFL career, so it's difficult to be told we have to take our lumps with him. There's no light at the end of the tunnel.

Starting Hall will cost us games (but significantly more than would starting DA? I dunno), but at least there's an upside: either he progresses as the season goes on and we have something for the future, or he proves the league right in not being drafted. Either way, we're better off knowing sooner rather than later because Anderson isn't even a band-aid; he's salt in a wound.

If I thought that the team had a shot do do anything with DA--maybe the defense and run game could let him play more of a manager role, or his big plays were outweighing his inaccuracy--I'd say stick with him. But the offense is based on the pass and the defense is not showing they can stop teams enough to be relied upon.

JMHO

I don't know. I don't think Max Hall is the future anything. We don't have to know anything about him because he doesn't have a future in the league (IMO). He's Preston Parsons. He's Brian St. Pierre. He's Colt Brennan. He's Chase Daniel. I'm not sure why we need to see guys like this to "know what we have in them." Especially if the offensive line isn't going to protect him.

Max Hall is a good story. A local kid. He had some fun outings against a bunch of guys that are now on practice squads or hoping for someone in the UFL to get injured. He looked like nothing in junk time against the Atlanta Falcons.

I know what we have in Derek Anderson, and I'm convinced that it's better than what we have in Max Hall. That's why I don't want to see him. I think we can win (still) 8 games with Derek Anderson. I don't think we can win 5 games with Max Hall, and we're starting over with a new quarterback in 2011 anyway.

Anyone who bemoans a rookie first-round quarterback next summer because "we don't know what we have in Max Hall" is insane.

 

[desertdawg]

Yes, Hall can turn out to be a bust at this level. But DA already has turned out to be a bust at this level. If DA remains the starter, at least he can't really play much worse. I guess I just have to except what we got and root root root for the home team on Sunday.

 

[azsouthendzone]

K9, you are making assumptions about Hall. He has had what two snaps in a blow out? You may be right, but you have nothing to base your opinion on except your own personal thoughts and assumptions. DA is a proven piece of garbage. Either you lose with Anderson, lose with Hall, or you discover something special with Hall. There are no other scenarios. Confused why you would stick with Anderson given the guaranteed outcome.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

I don't know whether to laugh or cry. We're debating who should be starting QB for the Cardinals, Derek Anderson or Max Hall .

 

[Russ Smith]

K9, you are making assumptions about Hall. He has had what two snaps in a blow out? You may be right, but you have nothing to base your opinion on except your own personal thoughts and assumptions. DA is a proven piece of garbage. Either you lose with Anderson, lose with Hall, or you discover something special with Hall. There are no other scenarios. Confused why you would stick with Anderson given the guaranteed outcome.

To me you stay with DA if the alternative is losing your team. Thus my comments about Clausen and Carolina, those veterans there have gone through Delhomme blowing games, to Matt Moore, if they go to Clausen and he just plain blows, as I expect he would, they might lose that team. what the hell does Steve Smith or DeAngelo Williams have to play for if they're going to keep putting mediocre QB's out there?

DA could be the same way. The suggestion is DA has that "magic handshake" and people like him even though he's not very good. But you can see so far a level of frustration with Fitz. If that continues and he continues to misfire all over the field, he might lose the faith of his teammates.

But then the coach has to know that, he has to know if I go to Hall is this team going to see that as giving up. If I stay with DA are they going to see THAT as giving up?

That's why coaches make a lot of money.

 

[kerouac9]

K9, you are making assumptions about Hall. He has had what two snaps in a blow out? You may be right, but you have nothing to base your opinion on except your own personal thoughts and assumptions. DA is a proven piece of garbage. Either you lose with Anderson, lose with Hall, or you discover something special with Hall. There are no other scenarios. Confused why you would stick with Anderson given the guaranteed outcome.

Because--as I said in my reply to Pariah--I think we win 8 games with Anderson. That may be enough to win the division. Otherwise, you get a chance to get a solid pass rush prospect in the first round and a Chad Henne type in the second.

With Max Hall anytime before you're mathmatically eliminated from the playoffs (which IMO won't be until January) and you give up the season. I'm not making assumptions about Max Hall. He was awful against the Titans. He was awful against the Falcons for no reason. He was good against a bunch of guys that don't play football for a living anymore. What's the upside with Hall? He becomes the first undrafted rookie free agent quarterback to suddenly be Tom Brady in his first season as a starter?

I'm not one for wishes and fairy dust, and that's what people are selling with Max Hall. Do you want to sit through 14 games of Max Hall being terrible? Or getting marginally better so that we think we have a short, less mobile Josh McCown? Do you want to sit through 8 games of Max Hall and then 6 of John Skelton?

Max Hall probably wouldn't be on the team if #7 had been willing to be #2. Had that happened, #7 would (according to Jurecki this afternoon) be the starting quarterback for the Arizona Cardinals thiscoming Sunday.

 

[azsouthendzone]

Because--as I said in my reply to Pariah--I think we win 8 games with Anderson. That may be enough to win the division.

8 games? I hope but I think it is more like 5.

 

[Bobcat]

Worst part is at least Jimmy Clausen is going to start for the Panthers going forward. At least Fox is not being stubborn, and will get to find out what kind of QB he has. And yes he will have a lot of bumps along the way, but so what...

Yes he will have a lot of bumps but will start having more highs as he plays more. Whiz is just to afraid of being of starting a young QB. And that is too bad. Sam Bradford would still be on the bench if Whiz was his Head Coach.

BOBCAT

 

[desertdawg]

8 games? I hope but I think it is more like 5.

Yup, I thought we would win 8 or 9 games before I saw DAs first two games. 5 sounds about right now.

 

[Russ Smith]

Max Hall probably wouldn't be on the team if #7 had been willing to be #2. Had that happened, #7 would (according to Jurecki this afternoon) be the starting quarterback for the Arizona Cardinals thiscoming Sunday.

But that's an assumption based on what? Remember as Mitch just pointed out, Whisenhunt told Peter King flat out Max Hall was the best Cardinal QB in training camp. He didn't say best stats, or looked great against scrubs etc.
He said he was the best QB in camp.

Now maybe that was a smokescreen to defend having 2 rookies as backups to a mediocre DA, or maybe Whiz really means it. Even in the preseason Hall had the highest passer rating, highest completion %, highest YPA.

I actually believe that the reason Leinart lost his job is Whiz decided he thought Hall could be better than Matt and they would completely lose Leinart if he didn't start. Matt would be furious, the team would lose any confidence they had in Matt. So he came away from camp and preseason convinced Hall actually could be the #2.

I do think if Matt were still here there'd be a QB controversy right now. The problem would be would the team have any interest in Matt playing?

 

[kerouac9]

But that's an assumption based on what? Remember as Mitch just pointed out, Whisenhunt told Peter King flat out Max Hall was the best Cardinal QB in training camp. He didn't say best stats, or looked great against scrubs etc.
He said he was the best QB in camp.

Now maybe that was a smokescreen to defend having 2 rookies as backups to a mediocre DA, or maybe Whiz really means it. Even in the preseason Hall had the highest passer rating, highest completion %, highest YPA.

I actually believe that the reason Leinart lost his job is Whiz decided he thought Hall could be better than Matt and they would completely lose Leinart if he didn't start. Matt would be furious, the team would lose any confidence they had in Matt. So he came away from camp and preseason convinced Hall actually could be the #2.

I do think if Matt were still here there'd be a QB controversy right now. The problem would be would the team have any interest in Matt playing?

It's nice that he said that, but the people who went to camp that I know weren't echoing that. My dad was there and came away saying that Max Hall was way too small and had a noodle arm. Arm strength might be overrated in the Kyle Boller sense, but there's still a threshold in the NFL.

I'm not sure that we should take Whiz's estimation of any of the talent on the offensive side of the ball as gold word. I don't care how he estimates the talent level of the quarterbacks. He said that #7 was his guy for four months and then fell out of love with him three weeks into training camp. The guy he apparently fell for is garbage, and anyone who's watched a Cleveland Browns game for the past three and a half years knows that. Whis tried to feed us a line that "We only know about Derek Anderson what we've seen with him on our team." Well, good. The rest of the NFL has seen him his whole career, and they weren't impressed.

I'm glad that Ken Whisenhut won two division titles with Denny Green's team, but now that he's building his own squad, those players who he selected that are still on the roster aren't looking very sharp.

What do you expect coach to say when it's clear that #7 isn't going to be on the roster? "Well, Pete, we're in a world of hurt. We don't have a quarterback right now. All we have is this mormon kid who all the locals are infatuated with?" Peter King is a carnival barker.

 

[Duckjake]

Yup, I thought we would win 8 or 9 games before I saw DAs first two games. 5 sounds about right now.

I thought 9-10 until I saw Brandon Keith block and the defense get steamrolled.

Now I agree 5 or 6 and that's looking like a stretch. This could be the worst record we've had since 2000. The Cards high powered offense got them big enough leads last season to hide the deficiencies on defense. The D is even weaker now and we no longer have Warner/Fitz/Boldin to get us out in front 21-3 or 17-0.

 

[TopGun]

Well this will be something every fan should get used to this year.

 

[82CardsGrad]

It's nice that he said that, but the people who went to camp that I know weren't echoing that. My dad was there and came away saying that Max Hall was way too small and had a noodle arm. Arm strength might be overrated in the Kyle Boller sense, but there's still a threshold in the NFL.

I'm not sure that we should take Whiz's estimation of any of the talent on the offensive side of the ball as gold word. I don't care how he estimates the talent level of the quarterbacks. He said that #7 was his guy for four months and then fell out of love with him three weeks into training camp. The guy he apparently fell for is garbage, and anyone who's watched a Cleveland Browns game for the past three and a half years knows that. Whis tried to feed us a line that "We only know about Derek Anderson what we've seen with him on our team." Well, good. The rest of the NFL has seen him his whole career, and they weren't impressed.

I'm glad that Ken Whisenhut won two division titles with Denny Green's team, but now that he's building his own squad, those players who he selected that are still on the roster aren't looking very sharp.

What do you expect coach to say when it's clear that #7 isn't going to be on the roster? "Well, Pete, we're in a world of hurt. We don't have a quarterback right now. All we have is this mormon kid who all the locals are infatuated with?" Peter King is a carnival barker.

Was at camp and yes, Hall is short for todays NFL QB. But his arm is plenty strong enough.

Also, regarding "Whiz's team" vs "Denny's Team"... I hate when the conversation goes there.
How did Dockett, or A-Dub play yesterday? And how many other "Denny guys" crapped the bed during Denny's tenure?
Likewise, how has Hightower turned out? DRC? Calais Campbell?

Point is, you can take both sides of that argument and still not win... Yes, Whiz has weeded out many of Denny's picks. And yes, this is now officially his team. So yes, he now has a ton to prove with his post-Kurt team. But, isn't this the case whenever a new Head Coach takes over? Don't all new Head Coaches worth a damn eventually create "their team" with their own picks and acquisitions?
Time will tell - this year and next - whether Whiz's choices were solid or not.

 

[Mitch]

But that's an assumption based on what? Remember as Mitch just pointed out, Whisenhunt told Peter King flat out Max Hall was the best Cardinal QB in training camp. He didn't say best stats, or looked great against scrubs etc.
He said he was the best QB in camp.

Now maybe that was a smokescreen to defend having 2 rookies as backups to a mediocre DA, or maybe Whiz really means it. Even in the preseason Hall had the highest passer rating, highest completion %, highest YPA.

I actually believe that the reason Leinart lost his job is Whiz decided he thought Hall could be better than Matt and they would completely lose Leinart if he didn't start. Matt would be furious, the team would lose any confidence they had in Matt. So he came away from camp and preseason convinced Hall actually could be the #2.

I do think if Matt were still here there'd be a QB controversy right now. The problem would be would the team have any interest in Matt playing?

What I would add, Russ, which some may be underestimating, is that Max Hall made it this far to #2 because he flat-out earned it. He came into camp prepared and already fluent with the offense and its terminology. I will bet you that he knows the offense better than DA. His play in the PS was not only good, it energized a generally dormant team. Yesterday...talk about dormant...and talk about NO tempo. How many of you were screaming like I was repeatedly "SNAP THE FRIGGIN BALL!"

Hall will bring energy...an ability to think on his feet...a nifty escapability...and far better accuracy. He will make mistakes...all QBs do, especially rookies. But...this is a voracious student of the game who will commit himself to learning from those mistakes. This kid is a winner, and is, IMO, the golden lining to Warner's retirement and all the other angst-causing QB scenarios since.

He is the most Warner-like of all the QBs...and this offense is made to order for a Warner-like QB.

 

[82CardsGrad]

What I would add, Russ, which some may be underestimating, is that Max Hall made it this far to #2 because he flat-out earned it. He came into camp prepared and already fluent with the offense and its terminology. I will bet you that he knows the offense better than DA. His play in the PS was not only good, it energized a generally dormant team. Yesterday...talk about dormant...and talk about NO tempo. How many of you were screaming like I was repeatedly "SNAP THE FRIGGIN BALL!"

Hall will bring energy...an ability to think on his feet...a nifty escapability...and far better accuracy. He will make mistakes...all QBs do, especially rookies. But...this is a voracious student of the game who will commit himself to learning from those mistakes. This kid is a winner, and is, IMO, the golden lining to Warner's retirement and all the other angst-causing QB scenarios since.

He is the most Warner-like of all the QBs...and this offense is made to order for a Warner-like QB.

Most "Warner-like" with respect to his preparation and mental attributes... Physically, they are nothing alike Mitch. Hall is way more like a Jeff Garcia than a Kurt Warner. He's far more athletic and mobile than Kurt ever was. He is not the pure, surgically carve you up, pocket passer that Kurt was.