NBA FINALS: San Antonio vs. Detroit

[Cheesebeef]

How The Hell Do You Leave Horry Open For 3?!

 

[O]

Horry, lives for that.

 

[Joe Mama]

nice tip in miss by Duncan at the buzzer to go along with 1-6 fromt he line in the fourth. It's starting to bother me that SA beat us as easily as they did, especially in light of their struggles here and their struggles against a MASH unit in Seattle. To lose in 5 with homecourt advantage just sucks.

yeah, but that's Seattle team might have been wiped out by the Dallas team that the Phoenix Suns beat in 6 games. It's all about the matchups. Seattle, Detroit, and to a lesser extent Denver match up better with the San Antonio Spurs because they have the size. I still think the Phoenix Suns could beat this Detroit team in a seven-game series. I'm not saying it would be easy or even a sure thing, but I think they could do it.

Joe

 

[Cheesebeef]

is anyone watching this game? It's another good one. Between last year and this year, when the hell did Chauncey Billups decide he really was worth the #3 pick in the draft? Kid's just money in the playoffs.

 

[JS22]

I'd like to see SA win the series. (If you're going to lose, it may as well be to the eventual champions.) But, a part of me is smiling right now as I watch Duncan and Ginoboflop choke the end of the game away.

 

[Cheesebeef]

wow - Game 7. I don't care what anyone says, the last 4 games have been great to watch. SA getting their ass kicked twice, then the classic Game 5, then the gutty comeback win on death's door by the defednign Champs - and now Game 7. That's a pretty good NBA Finals considering we haven't even seen competitiveness since 1998.

Gotta hand it to the Pistons - they are one of the most resilient teams I can ever remember.

 

[WizardOfAz]

Hell of a job tonight, never would have though they were going to win in SA.

 

[elindholm]

Stellar game from Horry tonight. By my watch, he contributed a grand total of one rebound over the final seven minutes. Of course, we won't "remember" his performance in this game, so it doesn't count against his legacy, right?

 

[ajcardfan]

Stellar game from Horry tonight. By my watch, he contributed a grand total of one rebound over the final seven minutes. Of course, we won't "remember" his performance in this game, so it doesn't count against his legacy, right?

Well, to be fair, he never touched the ball on the offensive end during that stretch from what I saw. They posted Duncan and Ginobli either fed it to him or drove. The couple of times someone was open and they kicked it to them it was Bowens.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Stellar game from Horry tonight. By my watch, he contributed a grand total of one rebound over the final seven minutes. Of course, we won't "remember" his performance in this game, so it doesn't count against his legacy, right?

How did I know this post was coming.

3 of 5 - 8 points - not a "bad" game from a role player off the bench. Guys a role player - he's not gonna be super-man every night.

 

[elindholm]

How did I know this post was coming.

Because I've finally made you think clearly about the issue?

3 of 5 - 8 points - not a "bad" game from a role player off the bench.

No, it's not. But give any other half-decent role player 200 playoff games, and he'll come up big in ten or twelve of them as well.

 

[Cheesebeef]

How did I know this post was coming.

Because I've finally made you think clearly about the issue?

3 of 5 - 8 points - not a "bad" game from a role player off the bench.

No, it's not. But give any other half-decent role player 200 playoff games, and he'll come up big in ten or twelve of them as well.

I'm really curious where this number of 10 to 12 keeps coming from. JUst this offseason alone, Horry's been a huge contributor in SIX playoff games:

1) Game 3 versus the Nuggets, Series tied at 1-1 - Spurs down going into the fourth, Duncan sucked - Horry makes two HUGE 3's en route to 13 points.

2) Closeout game versus Denver - Game 5 - Spurs up going into 4th - Horry hits more big shots, statline shows 17, 5 and 2.

3) Game 6 versus Seattle - 14 points, 5 rebounds, 3 assists - pretty solid game from on the road in hostile territory in a closeout game.

4) Game 1 against us - 12 points, big threes in the fourth

5) Game 2 against us - 10 points, including go ahead 3 just as Nash gave us the lead with 2;00 minutes left. Spurs never trailed again.

6) Game 5 - without a doubt the most ridiculous Horry game ever.

That's six games in just one playoff season - 2 years after everyone said the guy was finished. It's not a stretch to believe that if you went back through all his playoff years that you'd probably find 5 or so games each year where he had this kind of impact. Anyone know where you can find boxscores for every game in a player's career?

Horry is one of the reasons (not one of the main ones mind you) that he has played in 200 playoff games. You throw that number out there almost as if to intimidate, but it's very presence shows how important the guy's been.

 

[WizardOfAz]

100th career play off victory tonight for Larry Brown.

 

[elindholm]

I'm really curious where this number of 10 to 12 keeps coming from. JUst this offseason alone, Horry's been a huge contributor in SIX playoff games:

Yes, I saw that list before. If that's your standard for "huge," then my guess is most veterans have had a lot of huge playoff games. Is every three-pointer in the fourth quarter HUGE? If so, then Horry sure has a lot of company.

In your list, you identify Game 5 as "without a doubt the most ridiculous Horry game ever." So if that's true, why take it as representative of his career?

My guess of 10-12 is just an estimate, of course, of the number of games that would truly stand out to a hardcore fan of the league. After all, isn't that what being "clutch" is all about? To me, the other five games on your list really don't come close to the mark. Solid performances, sure -- I never said Horry was no good. But those other efforts are hardly the stuff of legend.

As I said before, what made Horry's outburst in Game 5 so memorable is precisely that, in the context of his entire postseason career, it was so surprising.

 

[Cheesebeef]

As I said before, what made Horry's outburst in Game 5 so memorable is precisely that, in the context of his entire postseason career, it was so surprising.

okay - so 99.9 percent of the world which knows a guy as Big Shot Rob - because he makes big shots is wrong and you are right.

If you were making this argument about Steve Kerr I could buy it - the guy made one big shot in his career and had one big fourth quarter and people say he's clutch - now that is ridiculous. The fact that people are taking about Horry isn't because it's a surprise - it's because it's par for the course. People talk about things for two reasons - they rarely happen or they keep happening - Horry keeps happening and the fact that you don't see that just makes you a hater and really nothing else.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I'm really curious where this number of 10 to 12 keeps coming from. JUst this offseason alone, Horry's been a huge contributor in SIX playoff games:

Yes, I saw that list before. If that's your standard for "huge," then my guess is most veterans have had a lot of huge playoff games. Is every three-pointer in the fourth quarter HUGE? If so, then Horry sure has a lot of company.

okay - I'll take you up on this - like who? Who are the other role players that have done similar things.

 

[cly2tw]

I really don't understand what you guys have been arguing about. Fact is, in the second of a playoff game, you don't gamble on leaving Horry open for 3.

 

[Cheesebeef]

In your list, you identify Game 5 as "without a doubt the most ridiculous Horry game ever." So if that's true, why take it as representative of his career?

who said it was representative? It was merely just another example of clutch play.

Tell me this Eric - if the guy isn't clutch - why would Larry Brown apparently tell his guys 25 times to NOT leave Horry open. Stressing to NOT leave Horry open? It couldn't be because one of the best coache sint he game is fearful of a shooter who makes big shots, could it? Is he just as fooled as all of us who believe Horry to be clutch as well?

 

[Chaplin]

who said it was representative? It was merely just another example of clutch play.

Tell me this Eric - if the guy isn't clutch - why would Larry Brown apparently tell his guys 25 times to NOT leave Horry open. Stressing to NOT leave Horry open? It couldn't be because one of the best coache sint he game is fearful of a shooter who makes big shots, could it? Is he just as fooled as all of us who believe Horry to be clutch as well?

The problem is not that you're labeling him "clutch", I think it's safe to say that he is clutch. But what you constantly harp about is how great the guy is because he is "clutch". Robert Horry is not a "great" player. Period. And he's certainly not the greatest clutch role player in NBA history--which is what you've been implying all along.

 

[elindholm]

okay - so 99.9 percent of the world which knows a guy as Big Shot Rob

You know the game "Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon"? Film buffs play it. You picks some random actor or actress and try to "connect" them to Kevin Bacon via a chain of actors who have been in the same movies. It makes it look like Kevin Bacon is somehow the center of the film world. You've probably heard of it.

That's similar to what's going on in Horry's case. Once someone calls your attention to a "pattern," it becomes easy to find. You notice all of the cases where it happens and instantly forget about the cases where it doesn't. Horry has had a few very well publicized big shots, earning him the nickname, and now people see "clutch" performances of his everywhere. In most of the games on your earlier list, had anyone else given those performances, we wouldn't be thinking twice about it.

The fact that people are taking about Horry isn't because it's a surprise - it's because it's par for the course.

I'm sorry, but this is just blatantly untrue. If you look at his career postseason numbers, it's plainly evident that his big games are not par for the course. Otherwise his averages would be higher.

the fact that you don't see that just makes you a hater and really nothing else.

Yeah, that's it, I'm a "hater." Good one. I am a hater of fuzzy thinking, that's true.

okay - I'll take you up on this - like who? Who are the other role players that have done similar things.

I don't have access to the statistics. But there are a lot of playoff games every year, many of them are close, and most close games feature big shots and key plays. If someone sticks around long enough, he's bound to be involved in some clutch action now and again.

Anyway, I apologize for bringing it up again. If you want to celebrate Horry's accomplishments, I shouldn't interfere. Everyone is entitled to his opinion and I don't want to appear rude or stingy or whatever those other things are.

 

[elindholm]

Tell me this Eric - if the guy isn't clutch - why would Larry Brown apparently tell his guys 25 times to NOT leave Horry open. Stressing to NOT leave Horry open?

Come on, this is ridiculous. You don't want to give up a wide-open three there to any competent shooter, especially one who is already 4-5 for the game. It doesn't make any difference what he did two or five or ten years ago, or what his nickname is.

 

[frankiekazoo]

"As I said before, what made Horry's outburst in Game 5 so memorable is precisely that, in the context of his entire postseason career, it was so surprising."

Couldn't you argue then that, up until game 5, while Horry was largely considered 'clutch' for pulling out a big shot here and there, that this 'complete' performance (ie. an all round beginning to end good game and pulling out the big shots at the end) merely contributes to the guy's growing legend? And that Horry really is clutch?

To say it was so surprising (the inferrence here being that this was either a 'lucky' or 'out of character' performance), again suggests you refuse to give Horry the credit he really deserves.

I find it impossible to believe that you think Horry has simply got lucky five (and potentially six) times in his career and I just don't see why you won't acknowledge that Horry might have that certain x-factor (for lack of anything else better to call it) that makes him so good 'in the clutch'. What will it take for you to think that he isn't just lucky? 10 Championships?

I'm just interested cause it seems you're seting a very high benchmark (maybe an impossible one) for one to be considered 'clutch'. If he isn't, then who is (other than MJ), and why are they clutch and Rob Horry isn't?

 

[Cheesebeef]

The problem is not that you're labeling him "clutch", I think it's safe to say that he is clutch. But what you constantly harp about is how great the guy is because he is "clutch". Robert Horry is not a "great" player. Period. And he's certainly not the greatest clutch role player in NBA history--which is what you've been implying all along.

I don't think he's a great PLAYER - I think he's a great ROLE player. And I'm not saying he's clutchest player in NBA history - nowhere am I implying that - can you find me where I put Horry above MJ, Reggie, Bird or Magic because I don't believe any of them should be in a discussion about "role" players - which is what my argument is based on. I thought I made that pretty clear in my thread titled: Robert Horry = Greatest ROLE Player Ever .

Not sure how that could be construed to include Bird, MJ, Reggie or Magic (I'm pretty sure you don't cinsider them role players - right Chap?) into the conversation.

And correct me if I'm wrong here eric - you DON'T think Horry's "clutch" correct? That's another part of the discussion here Chap - Eric thinks (and correct me if I'm wrong) that just because he has 10-12 games where he's made big shots, doesn't make him clutch - correct?

 

[Cheesebeef]

which is what you've been implying all along.

can you show me where I've done this? Has there been any comparison between Horry and the all-time greats - or even mention of the all-time greats Chap?

 

[Cheesebeef]

okay - I'll take you up on this - like who? Who are the other role players that have done similar things.

I don't have access to the statistics. But there are a lot of playoff games every year, many of them are close, and most close games feature big shots and key plays. If someone sticks around long enough, he's bound to be involved in some clutch action now and again.

the mere fact that you can't even remember ONE person speaks volumes.

Now - can anyone show me a White 6'9 PF who has contribted to a NBA Title contender in the last 15 years?