NBA to vote on new draft lottery system

[Mainstreet]

The problem with that is that other teams, that are likely your equivalent in talent, WILL tank, get a better pick and pass you. Your integrity costs you competitively if everyone is not following the same high road.

No denying this but I think continued tanking will hurt the Suns as they prepare to add to the team beyond the draft. At some point good players want to play for a competitive team or one that is headed in that direction. The Suns have their own draft picks and the Miami picks to help continue their rebuild. I think trades should be the Suns pursuit at the trade deadline or free agents next summer.

Also I think a team is frequently burdened to draft more on potential (e.g., Bender) early in the draft so they are not labeled as passing up a star. A couple of the top 10 players in the 2015 NBA draft were very good players (Towns and Porzingis) but the other players in the top 10, not so much. It is interesting the Suns drafted their best player (Booker) at #13 in that draft.

However, I am not naive. If the Suns are losing badly after the trade deadline, I'm not adverse to trying to get better draft position. However, I do not want this to be Suns mentality up until that time, if the team is playing poorly.

 

[elindholm]

The sixers are THE POSTER CHILD for the tank. What do you "the process" has been for the past five years??? Hinckie's sole objective was to deliberately tank seasons to get difference makers. He even SAID that.

This is correct.

Also, Bill Simmons coined the term "fantanking" more than ten years ago.

http://www.espn.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/070202_magazine

 

[pokerface]

I think the time to stop tanking is when...


We are on the cusp of the playoffs

We are signing good/great free agents

We are a balanced team with no serious deficiencies


I feel if Len would have panned out we'd be ready to roll. The thing that really stinks about that is center is probably the hardest position to fill (with quality). That's why this next draft may be our most important draft of all. It has a few centers that REALLY would be nice.

Williams is nice to have but is he starter quality? His stats say yes but his size says no. He could be a killer backup center no question but a full time starter?

If we could get a premier center out of this next draft the suns could be set for the next decade....AS IS.

Hmm.. except for Bledsoe possibly leaving. But I don't think PG is a position worth tanking for. Plus quality pg's are all over the place right now. That could be our first quality free agent aquisition.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Read my edit above. Tanking proposals are happening now because of superteams. Which is a recent phenomenon.

wha?! First, super teams have been around since the 80's. The Showtime Lakers were a Super Team, the Celtics were a Super Team. Hell, the 95 Suns tried to be a Super Team circumventing the rules to get Manning who was a star back then.

And then the Rockets tried to put together a superteam with Hakeem, Clyde and Barkely... and then tried again with Hakeem, Barkley and Pippen.

And then the Lakers tried to put together another superteam with Shaq, Kobe, Malone and Payton. And then the Celtics put together a super team with Garnett, Pierce and Allen... and on, and on.

But all that being said... in what way/reason do you think the tanking proposals are happening BECAUSE of Superteams? I have no idea what one has to do with the other. Can you explain your rationale here because I'm genuinely lost at that idea.

 

[Cheesebeef]

The Lakers didn't tank. It's like bad teams don't exist in your world. They were BAD. You don't have to tank if you're bad. We didn't tank 8 of the past 10 years--yet we were still bad.

the Lakers ABSOLUTELY TANKED LAST SEASON. They traded away Lou Williams for peanuts and were even benching YOUNG TALENTED guys like DeAngelo Russel the RIGHT AFTER he just hit a game-winning shot. They benched Deng for massive stretches, same as Mosgov.

I find it REALLY odd that anyone thinks the Lakers didn't tank, especially someone who lives in LA. Hell, they even started resting Randle in games. They were actively trying to make a bad team WORSE down the stretch last year resting their talented young guys for beyond scrubs.

Bad does not equal tank, and instead of personally attacking me like cowards, maybe you should address the post, not the poster.

And I think Ouchie ignoring me might be the best thing for both of us. I'm certainly not losing any sleep by that--personal attacking on a message board is cowardly.

Before you start accusing others of being cowards, you might want to re-read this thread and go back a couple pages, when people were just talking about basketball at a normal level. Then someone entered the discussion and told the "tankers" they lived in BIZZARO LAND. You want to bash others for "personal attacks"... you might want to look back at who started that.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Apologies to Chap. Went a bit overboard. But you were mistaking facts and that chaps my hide in an argument.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Apologies to Chap. Went a bit overboard. But you were mistaking facts and that chaps my hide in an argument.

Pun intended?!

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Pun intended?!

You saw what I did there

 

[Cheesebeef]

You saw what I did there

we share a brain.

 

[Phrazbit]

I think the time to stop tanking is when...


We are on the cusp of the playoffs

We are signing good/great free agents

We are a balanced team with no serious deficiencies

No good/great free agents are going to sign with a team that just finished a season where they tanked. And the other two markers obviously are completely unknown until you are no longer deliberately being awful.

 

[pokerface]

No good/great free agents are going to sign with a team that just finished a season where they tanked. And the other two markers obviously are completely unknown until you are no longer deliberately being awful.

I think free agents base their decisions on multiple factors.

Talent on a team
Team potential (To get to the playoffs and beyond)
Their potential fit on a team
Money

Then there could be other factors

Is the city desirable? (weather, amenities, publicity)
Maybe certain coaches/teams have better reputations.
Friendships with certain players.

I highly doubt they are thinking what team just tanked. True most players don't want to play for bad teams (whether they tanked or not) but if they were picking between two bad teams they probably would go with the team that has more potential...a team that has more perceived talent.

I don't expect free agents to come here...not because we tanked but because we're bad. We didn't tank in other recent years and we still didn't get any great player. We got Chandler just to lure Aldridge. Thats why we need to draft well even now.

 

[Hoop Head]

No good/great free agents are going to sign with a team that just finished a season where they tanked. And the other two markers obviously are completely unknown until you are no longer deliberately being awful.

Reddick just signed in Philly and I'd say he's a good free agent signing, he's not a great player but I doubt his level of play will dip much with age since he's a shooter. The Lakers didn't have trouble signing people this offseason despite tanking. I think the team's potential is what players look at the most, it doesn't matter if they just tanked. What matters is if the team plans on tanking again in the coming season and if the answer is no then I don't see free agents caring.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Reddick just signed in Philly and I'd say he's a good free agent signing, he's not a great player but I doubt his level of play will dip much with age since he's a shooter. The Lakers didn't have trouble signing people this offseason despite tanking. I think the team's potential is what players look at the most, it doesn't matter if they just tanked. What matters is if the team plans on tanking again in the coming season and if the answer is no then I don't see free agents caring.

Totally agree

 

[Chaplin]

Apologies to Chap. Went a bit overboard. But you were mistaking facts and that chaps my hide in an argument.

Apologies as well. Still don't agree, but apologies.

 

[Phrazbit]

Reddick just signed in Philly and I'd say he's a good free agent signing, he's not a great player but I doubt his level of play will dip much with age since he's a shooter. The Lakers didn't have trouble signing people this offseason despite tanking. I think the team's potential is what players look at the most, it doesn't matter if they just tanked. What matters is if the team plans on tanking again in the coming season and if the answer is no then I don't see free agents caring.

Oh come on... Reddick is a role player who does one thing. When people are talking about signing "good/great" free agents I doubt they're thinking in terms of a guy wouldn't be a starter on any decent team.

And the Lakers signed absolutely no one of note and THEY'RE THE LAKERS!

The point of my response was that Pokerface has setup a "is it time to stop tanking?" litmus test than can only be answered if you've already stopped tanking. The answer to all those questions is either "No" or "I have no idea" if you're coming off a season where you just bottomed out for the draft.

 

[pokerface]

Oh come on... Reddick is a role player who does one thing. When people are talking about signing "good/great" free agents I doubt they're thinking in terms of a guy wouldn't be a starter on any decent team.

And the Lakers signed absolutely no one of note and THEY'RE THE LAKERS!

The point of my response was that Pokerface has setup a "is it time to stop tanking?" litmus test than can only be answered if you've already stopped tanking. The answer to all those questions is either "No" or "I have no idea" if you're coming off a season where you just bottomed out for the draft.

Hey obviously there has to be a stop tanking point. And I totally get and agree with other posters that we don't want a tanking culture. Tanking is a slippery slope...there is always a "next draft" where some player is being sought after. I just feel some big market rich teams are having advantages and we need to negate those advantages with strategies of our own. I also get fans that want to let things play out naturally and not tamper in any way. But it's not fair when other teams tanked and gotten away with it and now we are held to some standard.

There is a lot of "gamesmanship" going on in the league and not just tanking. Look at what went on during the draft with Jackson and the mind games that happened. You can't tell me nothing shady went on there. Also, remember when Amare got suspended for that playoff game with the Spurs because he left the bench? I think he was goated into it...it 'felt' like a setup to me. I think that lost us the series.

I'm tired of suns being on the losing end of things and I don't give a **** on what we have to do to turn things around. If I was gm I'd be utterly ruthless right now. As a matter of fact my thinking is more in line of a GM than a fan.

 

[pokerface]

I have a proposed compromise for this next season.

For starters I acknowledge that tanking is distasteful and openly rooting for the suns to lose is also distasteful. I mean that's not even debatable. I also won't start a tanking thread but if our season goes south as most of us probably anticipate there probably will be a tank thread.

Here is my proposal. For us that are inclined to tank we keep our mouths shut about rooting against the suns... especially on gameday threads. We should allow other 'normal' fans to root for the suns. Instead we should concentrate on other teams that threaten our tank. We should be low profile about tanking and losing and keep it strictly on the tank thread.

For us "draft enthusiasts" we should be allowed a tank thread that isn't invaded by regulars telling us that..we shouldn't tank...we shouldn't be happy about losing..we aren't real fans...the merits of not tanking...etc etc. We want a thread that belongs to our way of thinking ...the draft and how to get the highest pick possible. If we want to root for the suns to lose on our tank thread it should be ok.

If you don't invade our turf we won't invade yours. If you don't try to change our minds likewise back at you.

I feel this has been a perfect thread to discuss the pros and cons of tanking and debates on it should be kept here.

Also, towards later in the season when games become more critical for the draft I'm floating the idea of having separate "tank" gameday threads.

 

[Mainstreet]

I think the 76ers are are paying Reddick upfront with the hope of keeping him after the season on a more reasonable contract. It should work out but that is a lot of money.

I will need to adjust to sticker shock.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I have a proposed compromise for this next season.

For starters I acknowledge that tanking is distasteful and openly rooting for the suns to lose is also distasteful. I mean that's not even debatable. I also won't start a tanking thread but if our season goes south as most of us probably anticipate there probably will be a tank thread.

Here is my proposal. For us that are inclined to tank we keep our mouths shut about rooting against the suns... especially on gameday threads. We should allow other 'normal' fans to root for the suns. Instead we should concentrate on other teams that threaten our tank. We should be low profile about tanking and losing and keep it strictly on the tank thread.

For us "draft enthusiasts" we should be allowed a tank thread that isn't invaded by regulars telling us that..we shouldn't tank...we shouldn't be happy about losing..we aren't real fans...the merits of not tanking...etc etc. We want a thread that belongs to our way of thinking ...the draft and how to get the highest pick possible. If we want to root for the suns to lose on our tank thread it should be ok.

If you don't invade our turf we won't invade yours. If you don't try to change our minds likewise back at you.

I feel this has been a perfect thread to discuss the pros and cons of tanking and debates on it should be kept here.

Also, towards later in the season when games become more critical for the draft I'm floating the idea of having separate "tank" gameday threads.

No. I'm not even advocating a tank, but the idea that there are people on EITHER side of the issue who can't deal with words on the internet that literally have nothing to do with any of us PERSONALLY without resorting to a flame war is really silly.

 

[Phrazbit]

I have a proposed compromise for this next season.

For starters I acknowledge that tanking is distasteful and openly rooting for the suns to lose is also distasteful. I mean that's not even debatable. I also won't start a tanking thread but if our season goes south as most of us probably anticipate there probably will be a tank thread.

Here is my proposal. For us that are inclined to tank we keep our mouths shut about rooting against the suns... especially on gameday threads. We should allow other 'normal' fans to root for the suns. Instead we should concentrate on other teams that threaten our tank. We should be low profile about tanking and losing and keep it strictly on the tank thread.

For us "draft enthusiasts" we should be allowed a tank thread that isn't invaded by regulars telling us that..we shouldn't tank...we shouldn't be happy about losing..we aren't real fans...the merits of not tanking...etc etc. We want a thread that belongs to our way of thinking ...the draft and how to get the highest pick possible. If we want to root for the suns to lose on our tank thread it should be ok.

If you don't invade our turf we won't invade yours. If you don't try to change our minds likewise back at you.

I feel this has been a perfect thread to discuss the pros and cons of tanking and debates on it should be kept here.

Also, towards later in the season when games become more critical for the draft I'm floating the idea of having separate "tank" gameday threads.

I think maybe you should just climb down from the cross and accept that people can have disagreements. You don't need to draw lines in the sand dude.

 

[pokerface]

I think maybe you should just climb down from the cross and accept that people can have disagreements. You don't need to draw lines in the sand dude.

I only came up with with the idea because some ppl get bent. I don't know what cross you are talking about. Last year got heated and ppl were calling each other out. Each side should be able to have a good time without annoying each other. The whole "tank or not" and fans rooting against the suns got under ppls skin. I even got edgy over my tank thread so I'm not immune either.

I'm just anticipating another rollar coaster season. It's hard to imagine the suns going from second worst record to lighting up the league.

 

[Hoop Head]

It's way too early to be arguing about tanking this season. I think everyone can agree that it would be a mistake to start the season in tank mode. It's something we'll have to deal with around the All Star break though and that's fine considering we should know what this team is capable of by then.

 

[pokerface]

It's way too early to be arguing about tanking this season. I think everyone can agree that it would be a mistake to start the season in tank mode. It's something we'll have to deal with around the All Star break though and that's fine considering we should know what this team is capable of by then.

This whole thread got the discussion going again. No ones fault...just saying.

 

[BC867]

It's way too early to be arguing about tanking this season. I think everyone can agree that it would be a mistake to start the season in tank mode. It's something we'll have to deal with around the All Star break though and that's fine considering we should know what this team is capable of by then.

A question! Does that mean that we should be ready to replicate last year for the second half of the season? Bench starters? A D-league team in the NBA? Again?

Is that the best that the owner, front office and coaching staff can present to the fans and community, missing the playoffs year after year? If so, the NBA has a problem. And they do.

So it's up to the Commissioner to think outside the box and present a product serving multi communities across the country, their economy and their pride.

Or The Valley of the Sun will be in real danger of losing an institution -- our original major sports institution -- to another community. Like Seattle.

 

[pokerface]

A question! Does that mean that we should be ready to replicate last year for the second half of the season? Bench starters? A D-league team in the NBA? Again?

Is that the best that the owner, front office and coaching staff can present to the fans and community, missing the playoffs year after year? If so, the NBA has a problem. And they do.

So it's up to the Commissioner to think outside the box and present a product serving multi communities across the country, their economy and their pride.

Or The Valley of the Sun will be in real danger of losing an institution -- our original major sports institution -- to another community. Like Seattle.

I say tank if they are losing anyway. Makes things more interesting for the draft. It was fun watching the Suns compete...for something. A high draft pick makes the offseason more interesting that's for sure!

But then again..there is no reason to tank because the suns will be bad on their own. To over obsess about it is probably homerism at play. The suns aren't all that good so why dwell on a non issue? The team is too young and the west is too tough... PERIOD.