News and Notes on Training Camp

[Errntknght]

Hornacek says that the team is increasing its focus on defense and its pretty clear that three point shooting is going to be crucial to our offensive success. IMO, overall teamwork has to improve a good bit over last year - and it has sounded like the coaching staff is aware they didn't even get the team all on the same page last season.
Archie is a fairly good one on one defender but off the ball he has appeared lost a lot of the time - so it's pretty clear he can't rely on his defensive instincts, he has to have learned where he is supposed to be in every situation. I have my doubts that he has done that, or is even aware that he needs to. It's a pretty safe bet that he has worked hard on his three point shot but he needs to have made a huge improvement for it to be a strong point in his favor. Overall team play has never been a strength either. In short, Archie is in deep kaka and he and his agent will probably see it as lack of opportunity and, thus, press hard for a trade. Of course he not going to be the centerpiece of a significant trade given what he's shown to date. Someone may be willing to take a chance on him but he likely has to go overseas to get a good opportunity to play.

Personally, I think the Suns have done a lousy job developing him - if you're going to draft such young players you have to be ready to work with them intensely if they need it. Naturally, if you don't judge their talent level correctly you'll be wasting time but it looks to me that Archie has enough talent to make it if it were developed enough - his talent may even work against him since it allowed him to succeed up to this level without learning much of anything.

 

[Chaplin]

Personally, I think the Suns have done a lousy job developing him - if you're going to draft such young players you have to be ready to work with them intensely if they need it. Naturally, if you don't judge their talent level correctly you'll be wasting time but it looks to me that Archie has enough talent to make it if it were developed enough - his talent may even work against him since it allowed him to succeed up to this level without learning much of anything.

I agree with your premise that you need to develop these young players intensely, but I don't see any valid and clear-cut reason to blame the Suns for Archie's failures as a player. I think he just isn't that good. I think a lot of fans thought he was significantly better than he actually is and he'll never be able to approach that level.

Serious question, what makes you think that Archie has enough talent to be a good NBA player and what has caused you to think that the Suns are to blame for the fact that he isn't?

Heck, Booker right now might be a better player. And if not, he's pretty close.

I'm off the Goodwin bandwagon.

 

[95pro]

I think signing the plethora of guards really stunted his play. Even right now we have a few too many imo. As much as it pains me to say this, the Suns need to figure out who they want to develop and guide into starter type play, instead of stringing along too many guys with potential. Unfortunately this might mean Archie going bye bye as i'm one of his believers that he'll get it going.

 

[Chaplin]

I think signing the plethora of guards really stunted his play. Even right now we have a few too many imo. As much as it pains me to say this, the Suns need to figure out who they want to develop and guide into starter type play, instead of stringing along too many guys with potential. Unfortunately this might mean Archie going bye bye as i'm one of his believers that he'll get it going.

How long should it take for him to get it going? I know getting game experience is important, but he's been practicing with the team for a long time--at some point, he's no longer potential but a wasted roster space.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I agree with your premise that you need to develop these young players intensely, but I don't see any valid and clear-cut reason to blame the Suns for Archie's failures as a player. I think he just isn't that good. I think a lot of fans thought he was significantly better than he actually is and he'll never be able to approach that level.

Serious question, what makes you think that Archie has enough talent to be a good NBA player and what has caused you to think that the Suns are to blame for the fact that he isn't?

Heck, Booker right now might be a better player. And if not, he's pretty close.

I'm off the Goodwin bandwagon.

Archie had a reputation for being uncoachable at Kentucky. I think the problem is not his talent but his coachability.

 

[Chaz]

I'll be interested to see how Archie plays when he does have opportunities and if the Suns pick up his option or not. I also wonder if Archie will start to sulk if his playing time remains limited this season. I was not exactly encouraged by what we saw in the summer league despite his ability to score the basketball. He really needs a mid range game to complement his quickness getting to the basket.

 

[Mainstreet]

Archie needs a team that will give him a lot of playing time even when he makes mistakes. Unfortunately the Suns may not be that team. He needs game mileage. Archie only turned age 21 in August. Too early to write him off as a NBA player. I think if the Suns let him go, he will come back to haunt them one day.

 

[Errntknght]

I agree with your premise that you need to develop these young players intensely, but I don't see any valid and clear-cut reason to blame the Suns for Archie's failures as a player. I think he just isn't that good. I think a lot of fans thought he was significantly better than he actually is and he'll never be able to approach that level.

Serious question, what makes you think that Archie has enough talent to be a good NBA player and what has caused you to think that the Suns are to blame for the fact that he isn't?

Heck, Booker right now might be a better player. And if not, he's pretty close.

I'm off the Goodwin bandwagon.

At the start of his first season I said (on here) that Horny should have Ish Smith and Archie practicing and playing together - to make sure they develop some chemistry with at least one other player. As the games progressed that seemed like an even better idea - because Ish was shooting like crap and Archie was totally uninvolved in the offense except on the break. For instance Goodwin is a good allyoop target but in his first season he was only involved in one, oopped by Markieff from the corner and Archie crushed it. (Oops are not a big point producer but they're a nice weapon to have.) Also the first season when Archie was getting no burn at all, I said he ought to be down in the D-league consistently where he would at least get to play.
Archie is very talented at getting to the rim even though he doesn't finish well in traffic - when the refs are giving him normal NBA calls he also gets to the FT line frequently as we saw in a few games. But, what should a coaching staff do in that case - work with Archie on developing some shots he can use on his drive when he's meeting strong opposition, of course. Pullup jumper, runner, floater, jump hook - there are plenty of options. I never heard a word about them doing that and Archie never attempted any shot in that category.
Like I said Archie is a fairly good one on one defender but looks lost when he's off ball. Since that persisted into his second season I take that to mean the coaches are not doing their job - one thing that always impressed me about Phil Jackson was that virtually every player that stepped on the floor for him, at least gave a good impersonation of someone who knew what he was doing.
The second season he sat even more than his first so why was he not down in Bakersfield, for crying out loud. That was ridiculous.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Archie needs a team that will give him a lot of playing time even when he makes mistakes. Unfortunately the Suns may not be that team. He needs game mileage. Archie only turned age 21 in August. Too early to write him off as a NBA player. I think if the Suns let him go, he will come back to haunt them one day.

Absolutely not. If he needs that, he should have stayed in college. There are lots of players who think they will develop if just given the time. Suns history is full of such players. YOu either give Archie minutes, or you give Booker minutes. The key to success in the NBA isn't in developing players, its in making the right choice regarding which players you will develop.

If Archie can't develop here, where this team is down and out and yearning for star players, where else, pray tell is he going to develop.

For those of you that are stock investors, he is that company you love, and you are sure is eventually going to go up, but in the end its your biggest loser and makes a fool of you.

Archie has had his chance. He hasn't improve ANYWHERE. He is the same player he was two years ago. Same shooter, same lost defender.

 

[sunsfan88]

Archie had a reputation for being uncoachable at Kentucky. I think the problem is not his talent but his coachability.

Link?

Because Callipari didn't seem to be against him

http://articles.centralkynews.com/2...3302_1_nba-draft-john-calipari-brandon-knight

 

[Catlover]

Link?

Because Callipari didn't seem to be against him

http://articles.centralkynews.com/2...3302_1_nba-draft-john-calipari-brandon-knight

Did you read the entire article you just posted? I don't follow Kentucky at all but I doubt Chad Ford raises those issues if they weren't already known issues.

I think the question mark is: Will he take that time, will he have the right attitude, will he be willing to be coached and will he work on his weaknesses? No one knows the answer to those questions, and by the way, he's a young player, and players can mature and get a better work ethic or what have you, but there are those questions right now about him and his lack of development at Kentucky

 

[sunsfan88]

Did you read the entire article you just posted? I don't follow Kentucky at all but I doubt Chad Ford raises those issues if they weren't already known issues.

Yea I posted that article because I figured that's where JC got the idea from but in the same article Callpari didn't seem to say anything at all bad about coach ability for Goodwin.

And Chad Ford is known as a big time fraud and an idiot, I would believe the actual coaches and players over anything that comes out of his mouth ever.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Link?

Because Callipari didn't seem to be against him

http://articles.centralkynews.com/2...3302_1_nba-draft-john-calipari-brandon-knight

https://twitter.com/kyletucker_cj/status/302854197664174081

For the record, Calipari said Saturday after the blowout loss to Tennessee he had a couple of players who wouldn’t take coaching. But during the game, according to the Lexington Herald-Leader, Calipari singled out Goodwin on the sideline and told him, “I can’t coach you.”

During Saturday’s ugly 88–58 blowout loss at Tennessee, reporters covering the game overheard Calipari yelling “I can’t coach you!” to freshman guard Archie Goodwin as he headed to the bench. During a timeout late in the game, Coach Cal didn’t even speak to his players in the huddle. His rationale? “I’m not wasting my breath here,” he said afterwards. “(They’re) not listening.”

“We have a couple of guys who aren’t real coachable,” he also said. “You tell them what to do and they do their own thing.”

http://www.sportinglifearkansas.com/jim-harris-florida-calipari-both-show-their-true-colors/\
http://lostlettermen.com/calipari-calls-uk-players-uncoachable/

 

[leclerc]

Well the word from most articles since he has been with the Suns is that he works hard and listens to the coaches so maybe he has matured in that regard. I have not read anywhere that he did his own thing when he was out there.

I thought he was pretty good when he got playing time last season, but when they pushed for the playoffs they stopped playing him and it was back to riding the pine.

This year they signed Weems and drafted Booker. Now we can play with two shooting guards/wings off the bench, just look at how the Warriors played last year. There should be enough minutes for both Bled + Knight and TJ, Booker and Goodwin.

The question is as you guys raise whether he improves enough to earn playing time, working on and doing the right things on both ends of the floor. I see it the same way, he has some elite skills but lacks mid-game, range and team defence. He does not have to be an All-Star player this year, meaning he doesn't have to do everything well, but as of last year he's not good enough. I think he was improved in summer league vs last year.

I hope they make him work on the things he must be able to do so he does improve here. I think he is good enough to be a really good player in the NBA in a few years. So my hope is a lot of minutes to Booker and Goodwin!

 

[Phrazbit]

I find the idea that the Suns are not working on his shooting ability and trying to expand his game comical. I know there are some here who love to pound on the coaching staff and front office, but seriously, you're kidding yourself if you don't think the team is constantly working on Goodwin's obvious weaknesses. But when you combine a low BBall IQ with uncoachability it makes for a tough player to develop.

 

[Catlover]

Well the word from most articles since he has been with the Suns is that he works hard and listens to the coaches so maybe he has matured in that regard. I have not read anywhere that he did his own thing when he was out there.

I thought he was pretty good when he got playing time last season, but when they pushed for the playoffs they stopped playing him and it was back to riding the pine.

This year they signed Weems and drafted Booker. Now we can play with two shooting guards/wings off the bench, just look at how the Warriors played last year. There should be enough minutes for both Bled + Knight and TJ, Booker and Goodwin.

The question is as you guys raise whether he improves enough to earn playing time, working on and doing the right things on both ends of the floor. I see it the same way, he has some elite skills but lacks mid-game, range and team defence. He does not have to be an All-Star player this year, meaning he doesn't have to do everything well, but as of last year he's not good enough. I think he was improved in summer league vs last year.

I hope they make him work on the things he must be able to do so he does improve here. I think he is good enough to be a really good player in the NBA in a few years. So my hope is a lot of minutes to Booker and Goodwin!

Early on with us there were some problems but this past season the D League coach spoke very highly of his approach to the game.

I'm comfortable with the way we've handled Archie and his growth but I worry about his patience. He's made comments that suggest he believes his game is further advanced than our coaching staff believes and he's also made it clear that he will not accept anything less than a regular role this season.

 

[Chaplin]

Early on with us there were some problems but this past season the D League coach spoke very highly of his approach to the game.

I'm comfortable with the way we've handled Archie and his growth but I worry about his patience. He's made comments that suggest he believes his game is further advanced than our coaching staff believes and he's also made it clear that he will not accept anything less than a regular role this season.

He's not really in a position to "not accept" anything at this point. If he isn't careful, he'll be a starter in China and not the NBA. Right now, that may be his ceiling anyway.

 

[sunsfan88]

Well the word from most articles since he has been with the Suns is that he works hard and listens to the coaches so maybe he has matured in that regard. I have not read anywhere that he did his own thing when he was out there.

I thought he was pretty good when he got playing time last season, but when they pushed for the playoffs they stopped playing him and it was back to riding the pine.

This year they signed Weems and drafted Booker. Now we can play with two shooting guards/wings off the bench, just look at how the Warriors played last year. There should be enough minutes for both Bled + Knight and TJ, Booker and Goodwin.

The question is as you guys raise whether he improves enough to earn playing time, working on and doing the right things on both ends of the floor. I see it the same way, he has some elite skills but lacks mid-game, range and team defence. He does not have to be an All-Star player this year, meaning he doesn't have to do everything well, but as of last year he's not good enough. I think he was improved in summer league vs last year.

I hope they make him work on the things he must be able to do so he does improve here. I think he is good enough to be a really good player in the NBA in a few years. So my hope is a lot of minutes to Booker and Goodwin!

Yea every summer in every article that Coro puts up, he raves about Goodwin's work ethic and how he's the player that spends the most time in Phoenix and at Suns practice facility working on his game. McD and Hornacek have vouched to this in numerous interviews as well so I don't think work ethic or coach ability is an issue with Goodwin now even if it ever was before.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I find the idea that the Suns are not working on his shooting ability and trying to expand his game comical. I know there are some here who love to pound on the coaching staff and front office, but seriously, you're kidding yourself if you don't think the team is constantly working on Goodwin's obvious weaknesses. But when you combine a low BBall IQ with uncoachability it makes for a tough player to develop.

It might just be that he doesn't have it in him to be a good shooter. Not everyone can do it, no matter how much practice they put in.

 

[FArting]

More on Archie

http://www.brightsideofthesun.com/2015/8/8/9108345/archie-goodwin-gets-his-chance

 

[Catlover]

More on Archie

http://www.brightsideofthesun.com/2015/8/8/9108345/archie-goodwin-gets-his-chance

There's a comment in that article about him not getting a chance with the Suns last season and later on they point out that "Goodwin spent considerable time in D-League". Confusing comments when you consider he played 535 minutes for the Suns last season and only played in 10 games at the D League level (for a total of 331 minutes). Good per game minute averages in the minors but 10 games hardly qualifies as "considerable time" IMO.

 

[JCSunsfan]

10 games is considered considerable time for rotation players. I am sure Archie thinks he deserves a shot. He just has to earn it. And maybe he is just not good enough. He has the athleticism but not the court awareness, shooting or basketball instincts.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

There's a comment in that article about him not getting a chance with the Suns last season and later on they point out that "Goodwin spent considerable time in D-League". Confusing comments when you consider he played 535 minutes for the Suns last season and only played in 10 games at the D League level (for a total of 331 minutes). Good per game minute averages in the minors but 10 games hardly qualifies as "considerable time" IMO.

I think that was referring to mpg more so than total minutes. When he went down to the D-League he got 33 mpg and only 13 with the Suns.