NFC West championship or bust?

[Gaddabout]

Just checking expectations here. I'm reading quite a few posts with people doubting KW, and one explicitly said they'd be OK throwing him under the bus if the Cards don't win the NFC West.

Really? Those are the expectations this year? That's how fast you'd turn on the coach?

I don't know how many games the Cards will win this year, but I do expect transition and some turmoil. Warner was an All Pro QB and you don't just replace that. I think this team will be relevant this year, but it would stun me if the fan base turned on the coach in one year regardless of what happens.

 

[cardsfanmd]

bust

 

[Chris_Sanders]

I spent a lot of time thinking about this and I am not sure how much I blame Whisenhunt at this point. Clearly this divorce between Leinart and Whisenhunt has been a long time coming but upper management wouldn't do the right thing and let Leinart go early in the off season.

That would have been smart as his trade value would have been at least a 4th rounder (see Jason Campbell). But management was determined to market him as the new face of the franchise.

Heck Leinart was even the souvenier soda cup for the first preseason game (I wonder if there will be a Soda Cup Curse this year).

This reminds me so much of the Eric Byrnes situation. A popular team leader was gone (Gonzo/Warner) and rather than risk upsetting the fans the team made a marketing decision (Extend Byrnes/Keep Leinart) rather than a sports decision.

Any struggles this season first lie at the feet of Rod Graves.

 

[CaptTurbo]

Well they have to compete for the NFC West Championship. If they go 6-10 with all this talent than yes Whiz will take serious heat and this whole QB situation.

 

[kerouac9]

1st or 2nd in the NFC West is fine. If we end up behind the Seahawks and/or Rams, then I think we start looking at KW with more of a jaundiced eye.

As I said in a different thread, 7 wins should be the basement of our expectations in a transition year, because this team is still very talented. As long as we get 7 wins and avoid any three-game losing streaks (which seems to me a sign of a team losing faith in the season/concentration), Whis'll be fine.

 

[Pariah]

Nothing short of 11 wins would surprise me at this point. That is, I could see 4 to 9 wins and make sense of it. Anything more or less than that would shock the hell out of me.

 

[chickenhead]

My opinion is that as the defending division champion, your expectations should always include repeating. Leinart, Anderson, or neither--if the Cards don't take at least 3 and hopefully 4 of the games against the Rams and Seahawks, it's a disdappointment. Another sweep at the hands of the Niners would be a major disappointment and would likely give them the division, so at least a split is needed there.

I could see anything from 7-9 to 10-6 pretty easily at this point. Better is a little hard to imagine. Worse is imaginable, but I prefer not to

 

[PACardsFan]

I spent a lot of time thinking about this and I am not sure how much I blame Whisenhunt at this point. Clearly this divorce between Leinart and Whisenhunt has been a long time coming but upper management wouldn't do the right thing and let Leinart go early in the off season.

That would have been smart as his trade value would have been at least a 4th rounder (see Jason Campbell). But management was determined to market him as the new face of the franchise.

Heck Leinart was even the souvenier soda cup for the first preseason game (I wonder if there will be a Soda Cup Curse this year).

This reminds me so much of the Eric Byrnes situation. A popular team leader was gone (Gonzo/Warner) and rather than risk upsetting the fans the team made a marketing decision (Extend Byrnes/Keep Leinart) rather than a sports decision.

Any struggles this season first lie at the feet of Rod Graves.

It's no secret that the Bidwill's really like Matt. So I think this goes even higher than Graves. The Bidwill's may like Leinart, but they LOVE Whiz. But, if this season goes south in a really bad way (I don't think it will), their love of Whiz may come down a rung or two.

 

[ARZCardinals]

9 wins or it's a bust season

 

[Catfish]

When you are given lemons, you make lemonade.

Coach came into this season like the rest of us-----prepared to go with a short to medium passing game and a beefed up running game and a better defense in order to make up for the loss of Warner, Boldin, et-al, and the vaunted passing game.

Then he was given Stephen Williams----who along with Breaston can really stretch the defense, and if you add Fitz and Early, surely someone will be open if you can just get the ball downfield to them. Clearly, he chose to go with the offense that takes men out of the box to defend deep, and thus opens the running game with Beanie and Timmy to a new level. Sooooooooo-----he added lemons to our koolade and spiced up the drink a little bit.

I can't find a lot of fault with that-----Anderson gives us the opportunity to stretch the defense and to score quickly, and more often than we would be able to with Leinart and the short, accurate, passing attack that would require long drives of 10 plays or more to score. I give the man credit for seeing what he had at his disposal, and finding a way to utilize it. In Whiz I trust-------

 

[football karma]

expectations?

in the big picture, this is a QB driven league. Sure there is the occasional team that can be a contender with a mediocre QB, but those teams tend to be exceptional in other areas (typically running game and defense -- see Balt Ravens, last years Jets team, etc). I dont think the Cardinals fit that bill, so my expectations are low.

that being said -- they are in a division whose only good QB is surrounded by a terrible roster. The 49ers are in the same boat as the Cardinals -- the difference between the two teams is that they get to deal with the expectations of division favorite. I really believe the "expectations" thing is a far bigger deal than most realize for them.

Thus -- the NFC West champ might be a 8-8 team. What is worse?: being a 8-8 playoff team, or not being a division winner where the champ is 8-8.

 

[Darkside]

I expect us to win the division again and believe it or not make a strong playoff push. We still have the core players involved in our back to back wins and playoff and SB appearances. People say it's now a QB/passing oriented league and while that's true it's still football, you still need dudes to put their hands in the dirt and fight like animals for that little square of turf in front of them. None of the other QB's or WR's in our division are going to beat our team. None of them. If we lose it'll be due to other reasons beyond that. Stupid fundamentals like blocking, tackling, special teams. The put your hand in the dirt and mud type of things, and I think we excel at that to be honest.

 

[40yearfan]

I spent a lot of time thinking about this and I am not sure how much I blame Whisenhunt at this point. Clearly this divorce between Leinart and Whisenhunt has been a long time coming but upper management wouldn't do the right thing and let Leinart go early in the off season.

That would have been smart as his trade value would have been at least a 4th rounder (see Jason Campbell). But management was determined to market him as the new face of the franchise.

Heck Leinart was even the souvenier soda cup for the first preseason game (I wonder if there will be a Soda Cup Curse this year).

This reminds me so much of the Eric Byrnes situation. A popular team leader was gone (Gonzo/Warner) and rather than risk upsetting the fans the team made a marketing decision (Extend Byrnes/Keep Leinart) rather than a sports decision.

Any struggles this season first lie at the feet of Rod Graves.

So if the team goes 10 - 6 and we win the division, does Rod Graves get the credit?

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Nothing short of 11 wins would surprise me at this point. That is, I could see 4 to 9 wins and make sense of it. Anything more or less than that would shock the hell out of me.

+1

but I would only go lower then 6 wins if we got hurt at QB, LB or CB.

 

[Bert]

We're talking about the 49ers here. Failure is not an option. If we dont, I'm not giving up by coach by any stretch. We'll have every excuse in the world to make if we dont, but I dont wanna make excuses.

I want 3 straight.

Anything less is a failure for this season IMO.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

So if the team goes 10 - 6 and we win the division, does Rod Graves get the credit?

Absolutely both Graves and Whisenhunt would deserve a tremendous amount of acclaim.

Whisenhunt for navigating the minefield that this situation has become.

Graves for putting together such a talented roster that is able to overcome such controversey right before the season.

 

[kerouac9]

I expect us to win the division again and believe it or not make a strong playoff push. We still have the core players involved in our back to back wins and playoff and SB appearances. People say it's now a QB/passing oriented league and while that's true it's still football, you still need dudes to put their hands in the dirt and fight like animals for that little square of turf in front of them. None of the other QB's or WR's in our division are going to beat our team. None of them. If we lose it'll be due to other reasons beyond that. Stupid fundamentals like blocking, tackling, special teams. The put your hand in the dirt and mud type of things, and I think we excel at that to be honest.

Really? Who are you talking about here besides Dockett and Fitzgerald?

Dansby, Rolle, Warner, Boldin, Gandy, Berry, Okeafor, A. Smith, are all gone. Do you really consider guys like Lyle Sendlein and Bryan Robinson "core players"?

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

Really? Who are you talking about here besides Dockett and Fitzgerald?

Dansby, Rolle, Warner, Boldin, Gandy, Berry, Okeafor, A. Smith, are all gone. Do you really consider guys like Lyle Sendlein and Bryan Robinson "core players"?

DRC, Calais, Adrian Wilson, Hightower, Breaston.

 

[Passepartout]

Leinart proves that he is all talk and no action. Failure isn't an option. As it is do or die for Matt!

 

[Darkside]

Really? Who are you talking about here besides Dockett and Fitzgerald?

Dansby, Rolle, Warner, Boldin, Gandy, Berry, Okeafor, A. Smith, are all gone. Do you really consider guys like Lyle Sendlein and Bryan Robinson "core players"?

We're still talking about A Smith? I thought Campbell had already outplayed him? And no, he wasn't a core player. Nor was Okeafor, Berry or Gandy. They were "spot" players, but not core players. Warner retired, so yes we did lose him, but through no fault of our own. Dansby Rolle and Boldin were offered competitive money but chose to leave--so no they weren't core players. Dockett could leave if he wanted to, so could Adub, DRC and others, but they chose to stay. Those are core players.

Core players are those players who believe in our franchise and community. Coach said it best last night, when he said the first thing they look at with a player is where they came from and how they grew up. They look for character. Those are the core franchise players. Players who care about football and winning and about our team and franchise specifically, and not necessarily where they could get the biggest bucks: ala Rolle, Dansby (the best at their positions? LOL) and to some extent Q.

Whis made his final point last night during Dockett's press conference, when he said Dockett is the type of passionate player who has the ability to bring in other quality guys. Guys like he and Adub can convince dudes to come here and win with us. Can any of the players you mentioned do that? You think Okeafer and Bertrand Berry are going to convince elite players to come to AZ? We all know who the core players are and they can't be replaced. You can replace a Rolle or a Dansby in time, but when do you replace Dockett? How many years does it take to get a Dockett, or an Adub? How many years does it take to get a Fitz??? You mention Boldin, most fans are content with Breaston @ # 2. Fitz is the hard to get guy, not Boldin, but we resigned him. Those are the core players, not the ones you mentioned. If they were, they would have been signed.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

Really? Who are you talking about here besides Dockett and Fitzgerald?

Dansby, Rolle, Warner, Boldin, Gandy, Berry, Okeafor, A. Smith, are all gone. Do you really consider guys like Lyle Sendlein and Bryan Robinson "core players"?

Also since you want to categorize the likes of Okeafor, Bret Berry, and Antonio Smith as core guys then I'll throw in Ben Patrick, Ben Graham, Duece Lutui as well. Really bad argument.

Turnover happens to every NFL team. You think we've turned over any more than the Steelers since we met in the Super Bowl?

 

[Cards_Campos]

Well lets take a look.....

Stlouis away Win
Atlanta away loss
Oakland home Win
San Diego away Loss
New Orleans home loss

at this point 2-3 but brutal schedule

Seattle away Win
Tampa Bay home Win
Minnesota away Loss
Seattle home win

at this point 5-4 and probably right in the thick of the playoff race
Seattle on the road might be tough but we have played Seattle well lately

Kansas City away Win
San Fran home Win

I say we beat the 49ers at home and lose away ...but this game will be for alot if my pred stay true....at 6-4....it might be for the division lead


St louis home Win
Denver away Loss

the Denver or Seattle game are both winnable on the road so I chose 1-1 to be realistic

Carolina away Win
Dallas home toss up
San Fran away Loss


SO the Dallas game decides if we go 10-6 or 9-7.....We always play the Cowboys tough and it is home...so I say 10-6


But with this schedule...I didnt really go out on a limb on any games....You could say we could lose to Carolina and maybe Kansas City...but at this point if we dont beat them then we dont deserve to win 10....And you never know we could upset Minnesota, Atlanta or San Fran on the road....


10-6 is very possible with 9-7 being very very good.

 

[kerouac9]

Also since you want to categorize the likes of Okeafor, Bret Berry, and Antonio Smith as core guys then I'll throw in Ben Patrick, Ben Graham, Duece Lutui as well. Really bad argument.

Turnover happens to every NFL team. You think we've turned over any more than the Steelers since we met in the Super Bowl?

I'm not saying that we'll never be able to compete without those guys.

I'll buy Adrian Wilson (though he stunk in the playoffs last year) and Deuce Lutui (he's a player that I like more than maybe the front office does). But let's not pretend that just because a guy was on the roster he's a core player.

Graves identified Dansby as a core player and intended to re-sign him. Just because he got a competitive offer somewhere else doesn't mean that he was chopped liver on the field. He was a captain and our #1 defensive playmaker. Antrel Rolle wasn't consistent, but he was probably our #2 defensive playmaker. Warner--obviously--is irreplacable. How many times did Whis and Graves say that Anquan Boldin was a core player and important to the success of this team?

Do you really expect me to believe that Steve Breaston--a guy who isn't going to be on the roster in seven months and who the Cards aren't going to put up much of a fight to keep around--is a core player on this team? Really? Why not Ben Patrick, too?

To me, core players are guys who help you win football games. Right now, I believe that the core group that the coaching staff is going to try to keep together are Campbell, Dockett, Wilson, DRC, Fitz, Lutui, and maybe Levi Brown if he shows that he's worth his draft status.

But let's not pretend that we have all the core players from our Super Bowl run and last season's playoffs. Campbell hardly played the Super Bowl season, both our pass rushers are gone, a Pro Bowl WR is gone, and a potential Hall of Fame quarterback is gone.

EDIT: On your last point? Of their core players? No, I don't think the Steelers have turned over more. Pittsburgh's core players are Harrison, Woodley, Ike Taylor, Polamalu, Aaron Smith, Casey Hampton, Ben Roethlisberger, and Hines Ward. Pretty much everyone else is interchangeable.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

But let's not pretend that just because a guy was on the roster he's a core player.

Umm...you did first by identifying Berry, Mike Gandy, Chike, and Antonio Smith. DRC (Pro Bowler last year, All Rookie in 2008), Hightower (18 regular season TD's over last two seasons including the biggest in franchise history), Breaston (130 grabs, 1700 yards last two years) certainly apply if those guys do.

Graves identified Dansby as a core player and intended to re-sign him. Just because he got a competitive offer somewhere else doesn't mean that he was chopped liver on the field. He was a captain and our #1 defensive playmaker. Antrel Rolle wasn't consistent, but he was probably our #2 defensive playmaker. Warner--obviously--is irreplacable. How many times did Whis and Graves say that Anquan Boldin was a core player and important to the success of this team?

Haha. When did I say those guys were chopped liver or replaceable? Putting words in others mouths again I guess.

Do you really expect me to believe that Steve Breaston--a guy who isn't going to be on the roster in seven months and who the Cards aren't going to put up much of a fight to keep around--is a core player on this team? Really? Why not Ben Patrick, too?

Hey, you did mention Chike (out of the league), Antonio Smith (non-factor in Houston), and Berry (injury-prone and non-productive his last two years), and Mike Gandy (out of the league). At that point why not Ben Patrick? Who knows what the future holds for Breaston but to categorize him as as a non-core guy after his last two seasons is ridiculous.

To me, core players are guys who help you win football games. Right now, I believe that the core group that the coaching staff is going to try to keep together are Campbell, Dockett, Wilson, DRC, Fitz, Lutui, and maybe Levi Brown if he shows that he's worth his draft status.

So 1700 yards receiving for Steve or Hightower's 18 touchdowns weren't helping us win games the last couple years? Got it. It was all Mike Gandy, Chike Okeafor, and Bert Berry.

But let's not pretend that we have all the core players from our Super Bowl run and last season's playoffs. Campbell hardly played the Super Bowl season, both our pass rushers are gone, a Pro Bowl WR is gone, and a potential Hall of Fame quarterback is gone.

Yeah, I got it. We've lost some guys. My issue is that you mentioned that all we have left from those teams is Fitz and Dockett. Grossly incorrect. I also want to mention that NOBODY in the NFL has every part of their core from 2008 still on the roster. Warner and Dansby are the only two that anyone should fret over. Nothing anyone could've done about Kurt and Dansby was a tough loss. Boldin was never going to get paid. One player the FO botched.

EDIT: On your last point? Of their core players? No, I don't think the Steelers have turned over more. Pittsburgh's core players are Harrison, Woodley, Ike Taylor, Polamalu, Aaron Smith, Casey Hampton, Ben Roethlisberger, and Hines Ward. Pretty much everyone else is interchangeable.

They lost James Farrior, starting LB and Pro Bowler. Santonio Holmes who was 2nd best WR and Super Bowl MVP. Not sure who else but I'm sure if you're referencing Mike Gandy and Bert Berry I could find some more the Steelers lost that are comparable to those two.

 

[Duckjake]

Good take K9. It doesn't matter why the guys are gone just that they are gone. Football is a team game and you just don't lose that much experience in your system in addition to shuffling your oline and not expect some rough spots.

I've said it before and I'll keep saying it the Cards won when they had THE most players with the most years with one team of any team in the NFL. Something I doubt had ever happened since the start of free agency.

I asked before if anyone knows of a team that changed 10 positions in one off season and still did well the next season and as yet no one has replied.