Not even kinda close! (Jordan and Rose)

[Gee!]

That would be a real shame because Magic was one of the best players I have seen play. If Magic had not become ill he would have had a much longer career. Before his illness there was talk of him switching to PF when he got older. What a loss to the game. How many players can play every position on a team and do it well from PG to center.

Also Kareem should be thrown into the mix of best players of all time conversation.

Its one of the reasons I believe LBJ will take the #2 spot.. He can play damn near any position as well.. He's showing some of it this year in the playoffs..

 

[Lorenzo]

the last 3 or 4 posts were all great. Gee, I agree with you that james could be that great when it is all said and done, but people need to let time play out. I think it is hard to judge a guy that is bearly starting to hit his stride and compare him to the likes of MJ or magic/kareem/hakeem/kobe/etc.

TJ I agree and disagree with you. you can talk about the what ifs about jordan and kobe. but the facts say that they stayed put with their teams that drafted them (or signed them etc) and made other players come to them. hell kobe ran a shaq who was in his prime out of town and still managed to win 2 rings. he is the complete opposite of lebron if you ask me. in my opinion that is the NBA version of the alpha male. I don't hate kobe for putting pressure on his management to get him some help. who won at the end of the day? was it kobe? was it shaq? was it the lakers front office? last time i checked it was kobe running the lake show. he wasn't hopping on another bandwagon.

at the end of the day d wade is the one that wins in this deal. he may be robin today. but he can reflect and say that he was batman in 2006 to all the naysayers. for lebron his rings will always be questioned by haters because he didn't stay patient in cleveland and couldn't get the players there to win.

and I disagree with the fact that the cavs didn't bring in guys. they made trades for big players like shaq and jamison mid season for lebron. it just wasn't enough. i really feel that the cavs went all out for lebron to win it all, it just wasn't enough and he made a different choice.

 

[Cheesebeef]

the last 3 or 4 posts were all great. Gee, I agree with you that james could be that great when it is all said and done, but people need to let time play out. I think it is hard to judge a guy that is bearly starting to hit his stride and compare him to the likes of MJ or magic/kareem/hakeem/kobe/etc.

TJ I agree and disagree with you. you can talk about the what ifs about jordan and kobe. but the facts say that they stayed put with their teams that drafted them (or signed them etc) and made other players come to them.

this is completely false. Jordan didn't "make other players come to him". He had Jerry Krause, who was an incredible judge of talent, DRAFT an incredible team around him. They drafted Pippen, Grant, traded for Cartright. He didn't draw anyone to his team. That team was BUILT around him.

When the Cavs had a chance to add pieces to their team they added... Larry Hughes instead of Joe Johnson... they added Antwan Jamison instead of Amare Stoudemire... they added a 37 year old Shaq. Hell, even when they had a young up and coming PF with Boozer, they BUNGLED that up when they had a chance to give Bron a young running mate. They made horrific move after move after move that added flashes in the pans or guys WAYYYYY past their prime. The Cavs organization just SUCKS. They did for 20 years before LeBron and they will for 20 years after.

As for Kobe... he bitched and moaned to get traded, even though he played for the most dominant franchise in the league and being the most dominant franchise in the league, they did what they do. And he didn't make anyone come to him. He had a good front office who drafted well (Bynum) and made the right trade (Gasol). Again, things that Cleveland was completely inept at.

I mean, they balked at trading for Amare two years ago because they wouldn't include JJ Hickson in the deal... the same JJ Hickson who couldn't even get off the bench in the playoffs later that season.

Not to mention, you just can't compare Chicago/LA, two of the three marquee cities in the country to Cleveland, the armpit of the Earth. Tell me, when was the last time you heard of a big name FA going there... IN ANY LEAGUE? All you usually see is the Indians losing big time FA, no one in their right mind goes to the Browns and the same holds true for the Cavs. Always has, always will.

hell kobe ran a shaq who was in his prime out of town and still managed to win 2 rings. he is the complete opposite of lebron if you ask me. in my opinion that is the NBA version of the alpha male. I don't hate kobe for putting pressure on his management to get him some help. who won at the end of the day? was it kobe? was it shaq? was it the lakers front office? last time i checked it was kobe running the lake show. he wasn't hopping on another bandwagon.

This is revisionist history. In the summer of 2007, he wasn't saying get me help... he was saying TRADE ME. That IS trying to hop on another bandwagon, but he couldn't because he had a contract. But he threw the team under the bus and bitched to try to jump to another band-wagon. Stating otherwise seems like playing fast and loose with the facts.

at the end of the day d wade is the one that wins in this deal. he may be robin today. but he can reflect and say that he was batman in 2006 to all the naysayers. for lebron his rings will always be questioned by haters because he didn't stay patient in cleveland and couldn't get the players there to win.

and I disagree with the fact that the cavs didn't bring in guys. they made trades for big players like shaq and jamison mid season for lebron. it just wasn't enough.

addressed above. "Big" players... they let go of a 23 year old Boozer in his prime, they went out and spent 66 million dollars on Larry Freaking Hughes instead of spending 70 million on Joe Johnson... they went out and got 37 year old broken down Shaq... while the Lakers got 28 year old All-Star Gasol... they went out and got 34 year old Antwan Jamison instead of going out and getting stud 26 year old PF Amare Stoudemire. Those aren't moves to be lauded, they're move to be laughed at.

i really feel that the cavs went all out for lebron to win it all, it just wasn't enough and he made a different choice.

they may have gone all out, but they were incompetent in how they did it. that shouldn't go on Bron's shoulders. It goes on their own.

 

[Lorenzo]

this is completely false. Jordan didn't "make other players come to him". He had Jerry Krause, who was an incredible judge of talent, DRAFT an incredible team around him. They drafted Pippen, Grant, traded for Cartright. He didn't draw anyone to his team. That team was BUILT around him.

When the Cavs had a chance to add pieces to their team they added... Larry Hughes instead of Joe Johnson... they added Antwan Jamison instead of Amare Stoudemire... they added a 37 year old Shaq. Hell, even when they had a young up and coming PF with Boozer, they BUNGLED that up when they had a chance to give Bron a young running mate. They made horrific move after move after move that added flashes in the pans or guys WAYYYYY past their prime. The Cavs organization just SUCKS. They did for 20 years before LeBron and they will for 20 years after.

As for Kobe... he bitched and moaned to get traded, even though he played for the most dominant franchise in the league and being the most dominant franchise in the league, they did what they do. And he didn't make anyone come to him. He had a good front office who drafted well (Bynum) and made the right trade (Gasol). Again, things that Cleveland was completely inept at.

I mean, they balked at trading for Amare two years ago because they wouldn't include JJ Hickson in the deal... the same JJ Hickson who couldn't even get off the bench in the playoffs later that season.

Not to mention, you just can't compare Chicago/LA, two of the three marquee cities in the country to Cleveland, the armpit of the Earth. Tell me, when was the last time you heard of a big name FA going there... IN ANY LEAGUE? All you usually see is the Indians losing big time FA, no one in their right mind goes to the Browns and the same holds true for the Cavs. Always has, always will.



This is revisionist history. In the summer of 2007, he wasn't saying get me help... he was saying TRADE ME. That IS trying to hop on another bandwagon, but he couldn't because he had a contract. But he threw the team under the bus and bitched to try to jump to another band-wagon. Stating otherwise seems like playing fast and loose with the facts.



addressed above. "Big" players... they let go of a 23 year old Boozer in his prime, they went out and spent 66 million dollars on Larry Freaking Hughes instead of spending 70 million on Joe Johnson... they went out and got 37 year old broken down Shaq... while the Lakers got 28 year old All-Star Gasol... they went out and got 34 year old Antwan Jamison instead of going out and getting stud 26 year old PF Amare Stoudemire. Those aren't moves to be lauded, they're move to be laughed at.



they may have gone all out, but they were incompetent in how they did it. that shouldn't go on Bron's shoulders. It goes on their own.

those are all good points and I don't really disagree. Cleveland is an old town, but it isn't as bad of a town as people say it is. However, it is not chicago, NY, or LA. It just doesn't have the size of a chicago or the allure of a miami, LA, or even a dallas, houston, or phx. So that may have something to do with it. You have to wonder if lebron wanted another superstar there to begin with to share the limelight? You have to wonder if players just didn't want to come there because of location? You have to wonder if cleveland was scared to bring in another big time guy like a joe johnson in fear of overpaying him much like Atlanta did? amare? I don't know why they wouldn't have pulled that trigger other than the fact that they were scared again that lebron was leaving anyway? a lot of questions, but no answers other than the fact that I think lebron wanted out of there all together. I think he was destined for new york, chicago, or miami all along in the back of his mind. When I look back on it to me it all looks like there was poor communication. Cleveland ran their operations in fear of losing lebron so much that they let it effect their day to day operations. It's pretty clear when you see some of the trades that they made and fired their coach because they thought it was what lebron wanted, but apparantly never asked him. Then when you look at how it all went down. If they had strong communication I think lebron would have called the cavs front office and let them know what was going on instead of making them watch on TV. Then the owner blasted him after the fact. To me its pretty clear that they did not speak to lebron much at all about anything and vice versa.

My point was that MJ and Kobe never left their teams. Other players on their team came and went, but they never left. Kobe won rings with and without shaq. MJ is MJ. the one thing that kobe and MJ never faced was FA with a real threat to leave their city, unless you consider that kobe apparantly talked to the clippers(for leverage).

both guys signed long term deals with their teams. Kobe asked to be traded, but I feel he did what he had to do to make it known get me help or else. That's called communication...even if he used the media to pressure the front office. At the very least he let his team know what they had to do to keep him there. Even dirk contemplated to the media that he wondered about leaving dallas this past season(to put pressure on cuban). and with kobe he should take blame because at the end of the day he wanted shaq gone. It wasn't going to be all great without shaq there, it takes time to rebuild a team. so I agree with your critique of bryant.

Look I was surprised that lebron and dwade paired up like that. I thought they were A guys that would not want to play with another one. But I was wrong. I understand why they did it and you can't knock them for it. Boston and LA made similiar moves to make their teams better. this was just a weird situation that you rarely see in sports.

 

[Cheesebeef]

those are all good points and I don't really disagree. Cleveland is an old town, but it isn't as bad of a town as people say it is.

dude, the only thing Cleveland has going for it is it's not Detroit.

However, it is not chicago, NY, or LA. It just doesn't have the size of a chicago or the allure of a miami, LA, or even a dallas, houston, or phx. So that may have something to do with it. You have to wonder if lebron wanted another superstar there to begin with to share the limelight? You have to wonder if players just didn't want to come there because of location?

apparently, LeBron begged Bosh and to come to Cleveland and Bosh said there was no way he'd move there. You've got to realize these are 25 year old millionaires. If you were a 25 year old millionaire, where would you rather go? To Chicago or Miami where you have a chance to win a title... or Cleveland where you have a chance to win a title?

You have to wonder if cleveland was scared to bring in another big time guy like a joe johnson in fear of overpaying him much like Atlanta did?

but you don't have to wonder. They overpaid for Larry Hughes for the same amount of money in the same off-season. that was a colossal mistake and JJ would have been the perfect compliment to Lebron... the Pippen to Bron's Jordan.

amare? I don't know why they wouldn't have pulled that trigger other than the fact that they were scared again that lebron was leaving anyway?

they didn't pull the trigger because they didn't want to give up Hickson and they could get Jamison's old bag of bones without having to give him up.

a lot of questions, but no answers other than the fact that I think lebron wanted out of there all together.

but word was that he was begging Bosh to come play with him.

I think he was destined for new york, chicago, or miami all along in the back of his mind. When I look back on it to me it all looks like there was poor communication. Cleveland ran their operations in fear of losing lebron so much that they let it effect their day to day operations. It's pretty clear when you see some of the trades that they made and fired their coach because they thought it was what lebron wanted, but apparantly never asked him. Then when you look at how it all went down. If they had strong communication I think lebron would have called the cavs front office and let them know what was going on instead of making them watch on TV.

I just think he's a really self-centered kid who doesn't think about anyone else. he also knew that if he told the Cavs he wasn't coming, they'd leak it in a heartbeat and poof! there goes his special and his special (and himself) was more important then they're feelings (right or wrong).

My point was that MJ and Kobe never left their teams.

they never left because they're teams continually surrounded them with GREAT HOF talent. the Cavs continually surrounded LeBron with trash and WAYYYYYYYYY past their prime players.

Other players on their team came and went, but they never left.

why would they? they always had good talent around them (and when Kobe didn't, he tried to force a trade).

Kobe won rings with and without shaq.

right, he won rings with a HOFer and he won rings with one of the most talented teams I've ever seen with 3 multi-talented seven footers.

do me a favor... i'm going to name the big time players/coaches MJ played with, okay?

MJ: Phil Jackson at Coach (HOFer), Scottie Pippen in his prime (HOFer), Horace Grant in his prime (mutliple All-Star), Dennis Rodman (HOFer) Toni Kukoc (6th man of the year). That's 3 HOFers, multiple All-Stars and a sixth man of the year, not taking into account players like Paxson and Kerr.

Now, Kobe: Phil Jackson (HOFer), Shaq (HOFer in his prime, most dominating player in the game), Pau Gasol in his prime (All-NBA Team multiple time All-Star), Lamar Odom in his prime (All-Star sixth man of the year), Andrew Bynum in his prime (stud 7 footer). That's 3 HOFers, multiple All-stars.

now LeBron: 37 Year old Shaq (wayyyyyyyy past his prime), 34 year old Antwan Jamison in his prime, Mo Williams (ONE All-star game as alternate after Cleveland begged for him to be put on). that's pathetic. everything else was beyond trash... a washed up Ben Wallace? A never was and washed up Wally Szerbiak... Donyell Marshall?!

The moves about were the big Cavs moves. Getting busted old men, as opposed to Kobe and MJ who got to play with incredible HOF talent completely in their prime. Of COURSE they didn't go anywhere.

 

[Lorenzo]

dude, the only thing Cleveland has going for it is it's not Detroit.



apparently, LeBron begged Bosh and to come to Cleveland and Bosh said there was no way he'd move there. You've got to realize these are 25 year old millionaires. If you were a 25 year old millionaire, where would you rather go? To Chicago or Miami where you have a chance to win a title... or Cleveland where you have a chance to win a title?



but you don't have to wonder. They overpaid for Larry Hughes for the same amount of money in the same off-season. that was a colossal mistake and JJ would have been the perfect compliment to Lebron... the Pippen to Bron's Jordan.



they didn't pull the trigger because they didn't want to give up Hickson and they could get Jamison's old bag of bones without having to give him up.



but word was that he was begging Bosh to come play with him.



I just think he's a really self-centered kid who doesn't think about anyone else. he also knew that if he told the Cavs he wasn't coming, they'd leak it in a heartbeat and poof! there goes his special and his special (and himself) was more important then they're feelings (right or wrong).



they never left because they're teams continually surrounded them with GREAT HOF talent. the Cavs continually surrounded LeBron with trash and WAYYYYYYYYY past their prime players.



why would they? they always had good talent around them (and when Kobe didn't, he tried to force a trade).



right, he won rings with a HOFer and he won rings with one of the most talented teams I've ever seen with 3 multi-talented seven footers.

do me a favor... i'm going to name the big time players/coaches MJ played with, okay?

MJ: Phil Jackson at Coach (HOFer), Scottie Pippen in his prime (HOFer), Horace Grant in his prime (mutliple All-Star), Dennis Rodman (HOFer) Toni Kukoc (6th man of the year). That's 3 HOFers, multiple All-Stars and a sixth man of the year, not taking into account players like Paxson and Kerr.

Now, Kobe: Phil Jackson (HOFer), Shaq (HOFer in his prime, most dominating player in the game), Pau Gasol in his prime (All-NBA Team multiple time All-Star), Lamar Odom in his prime (All-Star sixth man of the year), Andrew Bynum in his prime (stud 7 footer). That's 3 HOFers, multiple All-stars.

now LeBron: 37 Year old Shaq (wayyyyyyyy past his prime), 34 year old Antwan Jamison in his prime, Mo Williams (ONE All-star game as alternate after Cleveland begged for him to be put on). that's pathetic. everything else was beyond trash... a washed up Ben Wallace? A never was and washed up Wally Szerbiak... Donyell Marshall?!

The moves about were the big Cavs moves. Getting busted old men, as opposed to Kobe and MJ who got to play with incredible HOF talent completely in their prime. Of COURSE they didn't go anywhere.

I agree with all of that. cleveland is not a bad town though. for a millionaire who's 25 and can't defend(sarcasm) yes I agree lol.

I even said myself. If I were given the choice between ohio and florida(south beach at that) I would choose florida. But they get what they get as far as critique goes and I'm not going to come to their defense. the only reason I don't like them right now is because they are playing dallas and I want to see that trophy lifted by dirk.