Not trying to bash but an honest question about Rod Graves.

[Cbus cardsfan]

Obviously, Graves has his detractors and supporters. I have a question for his supporters. In your mind, what has he done to give you the confidence that he is a guy who can turn around the Cards franchise? I'm sure he is a stand-up guy, a nice guy, and a good family man. That doesn't make him a quality GM. I'll state my reasons for thinking he's not the guy to turn things around.

1-He has failed miserably to get players into camp on time.
2- The jury is still out on Whiz but his coaching choices have been failures.
3-His talent evaluation has been abysmal at best.
4- His salary cap management/tactics have been questionable. It's good for the Bidwills but bad when trying to field a winning team.
5-His free agency record is not horrible, but not great.
6-He's let alot of talent walk away with no compensation.
To me, those are the main functions of a GM.

The only good things i can come up with for him getting an extension are:

1-He's a good PR guy and good with the media.He seems to be very accessible to the media as well.
2-He has re-signed some of the Cardinals better players to long term deals. I give him credit there but any good GM does this.
3-I'll give him credit for "spicing up" the contracts even though i think the market dictated this and the Cards/RG had no choice in the matter.

Like i said, this isn't a bash. Enlighten me. Maybe i'm missing something or focussing on the negative. I would like to see what's out there that people think he has done a good job.

 

[clif]

Well I wouldn't say he has done a great or even a good job. I just view it as he is doing an adequate job of keeping the team out of cap hell. We all may long for a time spent in cap hell because that can be judged as a time of success in some circles. I just think it is really pointless to continually bash the guy since it is obvious that he has job security unlike many others.

There is no question that the talent level has increased under his watch. Now whether that is a product of his own doing is very debatable, but again ain't nothing going to change so why bother?

 

[Hollywood]

1-He has failed miserably to get players into camp on time.
2- The jury is still out on Whiz but his coaching choices have been failures.
3-His talent evaluation has been abysmal at best.
4- His salary cap management/tactics have been questionable. It's good for the Bidwills but bad when trying to field a winning team.
5-His free agency record is not horrible, but not great.
6-He's let alot of talent walk away with no compensation.
To me, those are the main functions of a GM.

The only good things i can come up with for him getting an extension are:

1-He's a good PR guy and good with the media.He seems to be very accessible to the media as well.
2-He has re-signed some of the Cardinals better players to long term deals. I give him credit there but any good GM does this.
3-I'll give him credit for "spicing up" the contracts even though i think the market dictated this and the Cards/RG had no choice in the matter.

Like i said, this isn't a bash. Enlighten me. Maybe i'm missing something or focussing on the negative. I would like to see what's out there that people think he has done a good job.

1. This has improved over the last couple of years. I think the main thing was the structure of the contracts and the fact that the Cardinals wouldn't "spice them up"

2. I don't think he has done a bad job of selecting coaches. I still think Green was a good hire at the time. When he was hired just about everyone was talking about what a great hire it was. And it is the same thing with Whis. Who thinks that he was a bad hire?

3. There is no doubt in my mind that the level of talent has grown over the last 4 years. Graves has been running the show since 2002. But I think Graves philosophy (for the most part) is to get the players the coach wants which I can't really argue with. I expect my boss to get me the tools I need to do my job well.

4. Graves has put us in a position with the cap to be good for years. I see it like this. The talent level has increased every year for the last few years but we are still in great shape with the cap every year. That is all Graves cap management skills. I know it hasn't paid off on the field but I put the blame for that on Green.

5. Free agency...eh, I agree nothing special there but he has said that this team will build thru the draft and use free agency to add depth. The only reason Edge is even here is because Q lobbied heavily for him.

6. For the last few years we have been resigning our own talent. This goes back to the contracts and cap management.

Mainly I think it is unfair to judge based on what happened before the stadium was approved. The stadium changed the way this team did business.

Just my opinion.

 

[Russ Smith]

1. This has improved over the last couple of years. I think the main thing was the structure of the contracts and the fact that the Cardinals wouldn't "spice them up"

2. I don't think he has done a bad job of selecting coaches. I still think Green was a good hire at the time. When he was hired just about everyone was talking about what a great hire it was. And it is the same thing with Whis. Who thinks that he was a bad hire?

3. There is no doubt in my mind that the level of talent has grown over the last 4 years. Graves has been running the show since 2002. But I think Graves philosophy (for the most part) is to get the players the coach wants which I can't really argue with. I expect my boss to get me the tools I need to do my job well.

4. Graves has put us in a position with the cap to be good for years. I see it like this. The talent level has increased every year for the last few years but we are still in great shape with the cap every year. That is all Graves cap management skills. I know it hasn't paid off on the field but I put the blame for that on Green.

5. Free agency...eh, I agree nothing special there but he has said that this team will build thru the draft and use free agency to add depth. The only reason Edge is even here is because Q lobbied heavily for him.

6. For the last few years we have been resigning our own talent. This goes back to the contracts and cap management.

Mainly I think it is unfair to judge based on what happened before the stadium was approved. The stadium changed the way this team did business.

Just my opinion.

Wow completely disagree on a few points.

1) Yes we have improved on creative contracts and Graves solved the insurance waiver thing so I give him credit here. We still can't get anybody signed on time in the first round but I think that's in part because agents are now going into talks with us planning to be late to get what they want(like Leinart's agent).

2) Green was a good hire right up until Graves let Green hire Solomon and later Hargrave, at that point it was clear to me Green hadn't learned a thing from his demise in Minnesota. Other teams reportedly told him he could not hire them, we apparently didn't. Green had terrible assistants here and people want to blame it just on pay but a lot of it was Green picked buddies over coaches, Graves should have been more involved there.

3) Not sure on 3 we were told Green was running the draft and identifiying players in FA. We never know who really did what so it's hard to say.

4) We're in good position caproom wise but we need more talent and year after year we put off getting it until the next year. After this year we will undoubtedly spend the offseason talking about DE's, LB's and CB's because the team needs all 3. We have locked up some key guys but the constant shifting money to free it up for next year doesn't do a thing if you don't ever use the money "next year".

agree on 5 or 6.

I think Graves is here because Bidwill trusts him, plain and simple. He hasn't done anything on the job to warrant a raise but Bidwill does not trust many people after Buddy(and then Green) so when he finds a guy he can trust to work with he keeps him around.

That's what Bidwill values IMHO.

 

[JeffGollin]

1-He has failed miserably to get players into camp on time.
Other than Levi Brown (who missed less than a week), who?

2- The jury is still out on Whiz but his coaching choices have been failures.
Right. Like Grimm was a bad choice. Spencer was a bad choice and Haley was a bad choice... Oh, you mean Rod's coaching choices have been failures. Let's see, that would possibly be Coach Mac and Dennis. But were those choices actually Rod's? Or did ownership have a significant hand (and, in fact, total say) in those decisions?

3-His talent evaluation has been abysmal at best.
Since the Pace/Johnson trade off for Suggs, most of us have praised the picks (and even BJ is starting to fulfill his potential). The draft is all about probabilities and not definites. You play the percentages and hope the odds will eventually tilt in your favor. Based on that, I don't think RG's talent evaluation has been "abysmal."

4- His salary cap management/tactics have been questionable. It's good for the Bidwills but bad when trying to field a winning team.
I think there have been times when he could have been more aggressive (assuming ownership would let him).

5-His free agency record is not horrible, but not great.
With the exception perhaps of Kurt Warner and Edge, Rod's MO has been to stay away from high-priced free agents in favor of younger, the more mid-level guys who stabilize your roster. The Pro Football Prospectus 2007 guys have done a statistical analysis which concludes that "teams with mostly good mid-level talent" do a lot better than 'teams that mix a few highly-paid stars with a high number of minimum-salary players.

6-He's let alot of talent walk away with no compensation.
I have a problem with that too.

The only good things i can come up with for him getting an extension are:

1-He's a good PR guy and good with the media.

2-He has re-signed some of the Cardinals better players to long term deals.

3-I'll give him credit for "spicing up" the contracts
Right. He helps old ladies across the street - there's that.

Like i said, this isn't a bash.
Just because you say it isn't doesn't mean it isn't. Your post walks, talks and quacks like a bash.

My main reservations about RG have more to do with his management style than anything - personally, I'd like to see my GM be more creative, aggressive and fearless. But that doesn't make me right by any means. There are plenty of football men in the NFL who will tell you that the way to build a solid franchise is "by the numbers" - that doing the solid, boring, plodding stuff will get you farther than always going for the home run ball (Do you hear that, Dan Snyder?).

Sometimes the problem of playing things too conservatively is that 4 or 5 years later, you wake up to find yourself exactly where you were 4 or 5 years ago. But, in many cases, this is precisely how you build a successful franchise the right way.

For us fans, the problem is that we're scared to wait those 4-5 years see if Rod's program will pay off because in the end, maybe it won't. Some of us are willing to wait. Some want to see something more spectacular earlier. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[Mulli]

I am glad someone brought this up. Again. Graves cannot be discussed enough..



Not.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

What exactly is a 'Rod Graves supporter'?

If we win, it's in spite of him....

 

[kerouac9]

1-He has failed miserably to get players into camp on time.
Other than Levi Brown (who missed less than a week), who?[/color]

Calvin Pace and Bryant Johnson
Larry Fitzgerald
Antrel Rolle
Matt Leinart.

I mean, I guess that Graves could be an average GM if you ignore or forget about all the mistakes that he engineered as VP Football Operations and focus only on the horrible on-field product.

Positive note: Graves does seem to learn a little more every season, and try something new. This offseason it was the roster bonuses instead of signing bonuses. It doesn't seem that Graves believes that he has found a system that "works". That's a good thing.

 

[jefftheshark]

From the "Official Cardinal Handbook":

Open Season on Graves Bashing: January 2nd - September 1st

Open Season on Coach Bashing: September 10th - December 30th

In 2007, as always, Ownership Bashing is Open all year.

In the unlikely event of a Playoff run, The Open Season on Graves Bashing will be delayed until the Cardinals lose. However, the Open Season on Coach Bashing will be extended.

In 2007 the moratorium on "Q" Bashing will continue, however Berry has been officially removed from the DNB (Do Not Bash) List until further notice.

JTS

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

1-He has failed miserably to get players into camp on time.
Other than Levi Brown (who missed less than a week), who?

2- The jury is still out on Whiz but his coaching choices have been failures.
Right. Like Grimm was a bad choice. Spencer was a bad choice and Haley was a bad choice... Oh, you mean Rod's coaching choices have been failures. Let's see, that would possibly be Coach Mac and Dennis. But were those choices actually Rod's? Or did ownership have a significant hand (and, in fact, total say) in those decisions?

3-His talent evaluation has been abysmal at best.
Since the Pace/Johnson trade off for Suggs, most of us have praised the picks (and even BJ is starting to fulfill his potential). The draft is all about probabilities and not definites. You play the percentages and hope the odds will eventually tilt in your favor. Based on that, I don't think RG's talent evaluation has been "abysmal."

4- His salary cap management/tactics have been questionable. It's good for the Bidwills but bad when trying to field a winning team.
I think there have been times when he could have been more aggressive (assuming ownership would let him).

5-His free agency record is not horrible, but not great.
With the exception perhaps of Kurt Warner and Edge, Rod's MO has been to stay away from high-priced free agents in favor of younger, the more mid-level guys who stabilize your roster. The Pro Football Prospectus 2007 guys have done a statistical analysis which concludes that "teams with mostly good mid-level talent" do a lot better than 'teams that mix a few highly-paid stars with a high number of minimum-salary players.

6-He's let alot of talent walk away with no compensation.
I have a problem with that too.

The only good things i can come up with for him getting an extension are:

1-He's a good PR guy and good with the media.

2-He has re-signed some of the Cardinals better players to long term deals.

3-I'll give him credit for "spicing up" the contracts
Right. He helps old ladies across the street - there's that.

Like i said, this isn't a bash.
Just because you say it isn't doesn't mean it isn't. Your post walks, talks and quacks like a bash.

My main reservations about RG have more to do with his management style than anything - personally, I'd like to see my GM be more creative, aggressive and fearless. But that doesn't make me right by any means. There are plenty of football men in the NFL who will tell you that the way to build a solid franchise is "by the numbers" - that doing the solid, boring, plodding stuff will get you farther than always going for the home run ball (Do you hear that, Dan Snyder?).

Sometimes the problem of playing things too conservatively is that 4 or 5 years later, you wake up to find yourself exactly where you were 4 or 5 years ago. But, in many cases, this is precisely how you build a successful franchise the right way.

For us fans, the problem is that we're scared to wait those 4-5 years see if Rod's program will pay off because in the end, maybe it won't. Some of us are willing to wait. Some want to see something more spectacular earlier. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

You make some good points. A few things that i don't see eye to eye with you are that you want to give Graves credit for hiring potentially good assisstants, in Grimm etc., but give ownership the blame for the previous failed hirings.
Secondly, every 1st round pick but Thomas Jones has not been in camp on time.
Lastly, the draft is a crapshoot but when you see guys like Ozzie Newsome, the guy in SD(Smith?),Angelos,Polian, and a few others constantly pull out effective starters/stars in round 1 and key contributors in the latter rounds then it leaves alot to be desired of the players Graves has brought in, especially considering we draft in the top 10 every year it seems. I may be wrong but Antonio Smith, Gabe Watson, who haven't proven themselves yet, and Reggie Wells, who may not start on many other teams, are the only 4th round and lower picks that can be considered key contributors.

 

[kerouac9]

4/5

 

[40yearfan]

1. This has improved over the last couple of years. I think the main thing was the structure of the contracts and the fact that the Cardinals wouldn't "spice them up"

2. I don't think he has done a bad job of selecting coaches. I still think Green was a good hire at the time. When he was hired just about everyone was talking about what a great hire it was. And it is the same thing with Whis. Who thinks that he was a bad hire?

3. There is no doubt in my mind that the level of talent has grown over the last 4 years. Graves has been running the show since 2002. But I think Graves philosophy (for the most part) is to get the players the coach wants which I can't really argue with. I expect my boss to get me the tools I need to do my job well.

4. Graves has put us in a position with the cap to be good for years. I see it like this. The talent level has increased every year for the last few years but we are still in great shape with the cap every year. That is all Graves cap management skills. I know it hasn't paid off on the field but I put the blame for that on Green.

5. Free agency...eh, I agree nothing special there but he has said that this team will build thru the draft and use free agency to add depth. The only reason Edge is even here is because Q lobbied heavily for him.

6. For the last few years we have been resigning our own talent. This goes back to the contracts and cap management.

Mainly I think it is unfair to judge based on what happened before the stadium was approved. The stadium changed the way this team did business.

Just my opinion.

Couldn't have done it better myself Hollywood. Good job.

 

[40yearfan]

You make some good points. A few things that i don't see eye to eye with you are that you want to give Graves credit for hiring potentially good assisstants, in Grimm etc., but give ownership the blame for the previous failed hirings.
Secondly, every 1st round pick but Thomas Jones has not been in camp on time.
Lastly, the draft is a crapshoot but when you see guys like Ozzie Newsome, the guy in SD(Smith?),Angelos,Polian, and a few others constantly pull out effective starters/stars in round 1 and key contributors in the latter rounds then it leaves alot to be desired of the players Graves has brought in, especially considering we draft in the top 10 every year it seems. I may be wrong but Antonio Smith, Gabe Watson, who haven't proven themselves yet, and Reggie Wells, who may not start on many other teams, are the only 4th round and lower picks that can be considered key contributors.

So why have we been getting high marks by all of the NFL draft gurus for the past 4 years? Going back after the fact and using hindsight to critique a draft is kinda like Monday morning quarterbacking. You need to look at what happened during the time of the draft and how it was perceived at that time.

Everyone knows the draft is a crap shoot and only about 50% of the players pan out. You can look at any NFL team and find failures in some of their high round draft picks.

You can bash Graves all you want. The truth of the matter is that the only thing anyone can really bash him about right now is the won/loss record of this team. He and M. Bidwill have brought this team into the 21st. century. If we start winning this year and sustain that winning, he'll be acknowledged as the person who turned this team into a winning franchise.

 

[RonF]

Graves is on a steep learning curve since he has taken over the reigns as GM and based on most comments posted above there is improvement on coaches and contract situations. I would think the motivation in the year and years to come will be ensuring that our new Card stadium remains at full capacity by the fans. That means ensuring drafted players are signed in a timely manner, good players are resigned and free agents who may help improve the team are signed up. I think Graves is on the right tract to meet the criteria for a winning football program in Arizona.

Forget about the past ASU Stadium days, focus on the changes this year and next and then decide. Now, I need a refill on my kool-aid.

 

[Russ Smith]

So why have we been getting high marks by all of the NFL draft gurus for the past 4 years? Going back after the fact and using hindsight to critique a draft is kinda like Monday morning quarterbacking. You need to look at what happened during the time of the draft and how it was perceived at that time.

Everyone knows the draft is a crap shoot and only about 50% of the players pan out. You can look at any NFL team and find failures in some of their high round draft picks.

You can bash Graves all you want. The truth of the matter is that the only thing anyone can really bash him about right now is the won/loss record of this team. He and M. Bidwill have brought this team into the 21st. century. If we start winning this year and sustain that winning, he'll be acknowledged as the person who turned this team into a winning franchise.

Totally disagree. You judge a GM and coach by wins and losses as you said, and you judge drafts by how many good players you get out of it.

Draft gurus are often guys like us who are often wrong. Not that long ago I thought Brandon Browner from Oregon State was a borderline first rounder a CB who'd play safety in the NFL. He went undrafted, Denver signed him, got hurt, missed a year, got cut last year and near as I can tell is completely out of the NFL. Virtually every expert had him gone by the 2nd round and rated him among the best UDFA's when Denver signed him.

Mel Kiper et al are not very good at their jobs they constantly revise their forecasts based on what they hear but how many draft gurus said hey watch out for Marques Colston? how many people said Anquan was a great pick?

You judge drafts by how the players you picked performed, not by how they were rated right after the draft.


Just checked, Browner is playing in Canada, by coincidence he replaced Coby Rhinerhart at CB!

 

[Sandan]

Lets not forget the ever entertaining 'Letting players walk with no compensation'

This assumes that somebody wanted to pay us

 

[Cheesebeef]

man, even I think this thread is overkill.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Lets not forget the ever entertaining 'Letting players walk with no compensation'

This assumes that somebody wanted to pay us

even though I think this thread is overkill, this is laughable to me considering we've seen guys leave here for nothing when they're in their prime and once they land on another team and stink up the joint, those teams have still gotten SOMETHING for them (just as an example Boston/Kendall - both the Bolts and the Jets got compensation for them affter huge flaws had come out about them). I mean, Nidan, if the Bolts and Jets got something for Boston and Kendall, why didn't we?

 

[40yearfan]

Totally disagree. You judge a GM and coach by wins and losses as you said, and you judge drafts by how many good players you get out of it.

Draft gurus are often guys like us who are often wrong. Not that long ago I thought Brandon Browner from Oregon State was a borderline first rounder a CB who'd play safety in the NFL. He went undrafted, Denver signed him, got hurt, missed a year, got cut last year and near as I can tell is completely out of the NFL. Virtually every expert had him gone by the 2nd round and rated him among the best UDFA's when Denver signed him.

Mel Kiper et al are not very good at their jobs they constantly revise their forecasts based on what they hear but how many draft gurus said hey watch out for Marques Colston? how many people said Anquan was a great pick?

You judge drafts by how the players you picked performed, not by how they were rated right after the draft.


Just checked, Browner is playing in Canada, by coincidence he replaced Coby Rhinerhart at CB!

Russ, I don't disagree with you on much, but we do disagree on this. You do the best job you can and try to do what is right at the time you are doing it. If later, it turns out that some of your decisions were wrong, so be it.

The problem here is that the Graves bashers want to only point out the failures and not acknowledge the successess. No one is perfect and that includes all of us. Graves has had about 4 years now to try and turn this team around. That's not a long time in the scheme of things especially considering the circumstances he's had to work with. I greatly admire Mr. B., but even I will acknowledge that he is not the easiest person to work for. I think he's on the right track while others say he isn't. None of us will know for sure until this season is over.

The really crappy thing about this is the fact that if we do make the playoffs, these same people who are bashing Graves will continue to bash him and give all the credit to the Whiz. It's a no win proposition for RG.

 

[Russ Smith]

Russ, I don't disagree with you on much, but we do disagree on this. You do the best job you can and try to do what is right at the time you are doing it. If later, it turns out that some of your decisions were wrong, so be it.

But it's not hindsight to say that draft didn't pan out just because at the time it was thought to be a good draft.

An analogy, if Rod Graves was a stock broker and he advised people in 1999 to load up on Enron or Arthur Anderson, people lost their shirts and he would have been fired. At the time that would have seemed like good advice, but when it failed, he would have taken the fall.

The draft is a crap shoot for sure but you judge drafts by how they pan out. Baltimore drafts well and they're good. If you're going to build through the draft you have to draft well, if you don't and you're the one saying we're building through the draft, you have to expect to take some blame.

I am not saying Graves should be fired now but I was quite surprised he got a raise it wasn't based on any tangible improvement in the team. We didn't win more, we had to fire a coach he helped select, and we are now overhauling a roster he helped build, again.

I think he's a nice guy that the Bidwill's trust with their money.

 

[40yearfan]

But it's not hindsight to say that draft didn't pan out just because at the time it was thought to be a good draft.

An analogy, if Rod Graves was a stock broker and he advised people in 1999 to load up on Enron or Arthur Anderson, people lost their shirts and he would have been fired. At the time that would have seemed like good advice, but when it failed, he would have taken the fall.

The draft is a crap shoot for sure but you judge drafts by how they pan out. Baltimore drafts well and they're good. If you're going to build through the draft you have to draft well, if you don't and you're the one saying we're building through the draft, you have to expect to take some blame.

I am not saying Graves should be fired now but I was quite surprised he got a raise it wasn't based on any tangible improvement in the team. We didn't win more, we had to fire a coach he helped select, and we are now overhauling a roster he helped build, again.

I think he's a nice guy that the Bidwill's trust with their money.

So where do you think we sit in terms of draft failures compared to other NFL teams? Isn't that how you usually base performance? By how your peers are doing?

From what I understand, drafting is a team effort which includes the coaching staff, the scouts and the front office. I realize as the head guy, the onus for the draft will fall on RG, but you also need to realize that there are more people involved. Do we have a good draft team or not?

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

2. I don't think he has done a bad job of selecting coaches. I still think Green was a good hire at the time. When he was hired just about everyone was talking about what a great hire it was. And it is the same thing with Whis. Who thinks that he was a bad hire?

3. There is no doubt in my mind that the level of talent has grown over the last 4 years. Graves has been running the show since 2002. But I think Graves philosophy (for the most part) is to get the players the coach wants which I can't really argue with. I expect my boss to get me the tools I need to do my job well.

if you honestly believe these two items, why has the team continued to suck?

 

[Redheart]

From the "Official Cardinal Handbook":

Open Season on Graves Bashing: January 2nd - September 1st

Open Season on Coach Bashing: September 10th - December 30th

In 2007, as always, Ownership Bashing is Open all year.

In the unlikely event of a Playoff run, The Open Season on Graves Bashing will be delayed until the Cardinals lose. However, the Open Season on Coach Bashing will be extended.

In 2007 the moratorium on "Q" Bashing will continue, however Berry has been officially removed from the DNB (Do Not Bash) List until further notice.

JTS

Good stuff! I have nothing of value to add, but I know what I like.

 

[Cheesebeef]

this thread's gonna get ugly. you can just feel it coming...

 

[Russ Smith]

So where do you think we sit in terms of draft failures compared to other NFL teams? Isn't that how you usually base performance? By how your peers are doing?

From what I understand, drafting is a team effort which includes the coaching staff, the scouts and the front office. I realize as the head guy, the onus for the draft will fall on RG, but you also need to realize that there are more people involved. Do we have a good draft team or not?

I think in the last X years most other teams are doing a better job of improving as a team than we are. The ones that aren't are teams that were better than us to begin with and have fallen off.

Since Graves says he wants to build through the draft, we have to do a great job in the draft.

I think Matt is a great start I think we can build around him, I like Whiz, I just think giving Graves a raise was questionable, it should have been more of a he gets another year but we need to see tangible results.

I think Millen should be fired too, I think whoever was the idiot that decided to trade Schaub should be fired(even if we didn't know then Vick was a criminal we did know he was struggling as a real QB). Gm's take the fall for such decisions.