Not trying to bash but an honest question about Rod Graves.

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

1-He has failed miserably to get players into camp on time.
Other than Levi Brown (who missed less than a week), who?

2- The jury is still out on Whiz but his coaching choices have been failures.
Right. Like Grimm was a bad choice. Spencer was a bad choice and Haley was a bad choice... Oh, you mean Rod's coaching choices have been failures. Let's see, that would possibly be Coach Mac and Dennis. But were those choices actually Rod's? Or did ownership have a significant hand (and, in fact, total say) in those decisions?

3-His talent evaluation has been abysmal at best.
Since the Pace/Johnson trade off for Suggs, most of us have praised the picks (and even BJ is starting to fulfill his potential). The draft is all about probabilities and not definites. You play the percentages and hope the odds will eventually tilt in your favor. Based on that, I don't think RG's talent evaluation has been "abysmal."

4- His salary cap management/tactics have been questionable. It's good for the Bidwills but bad when trying to field a winning team.
I think there have been times when he could have been more aggressive (assuming ownership would let him).

5-His free agency record is not horrible, but not great.
With the exception perhaps of Kurt Warner and Edge, Rod's MO has been to stay away from high-priced free agents in favor of younger, the more mid-level guys who stabilize your roster. The Pro Football Prospectus 2007 guys have done a statistical analysis which concludes that "teams with mostly good mid-level talent" do a lot better than 'teams that mix a few highly-paid stars with a high number of minimum-salary players.

6-He's let alot of talent walk away with no compensation.
I have a problem with that too.

The only good things i can come up with for him getting an extension are:

1-He's a good PR guy and good with the media.

2-He has re-signed some of the Cardinals better players to long term deals.

3-I'll give him credit for "spicing up" the contracts
Right. He helps old ladies across the street - there's that.

Like i said, this isn't a bash.
Just because you say it isn't doesn't mean it isn't. Your post walks, talks and quacks like a bash.

My main reservations about RG have more to do with his management style than anything - personally, I'd like to see my GM be more creative, aggressive and fearless. But that doesn't make me right by any means. There are plenty of football men in the NFL who will tell you that the way to build a solid franchise is "by the numbers" - that doing the solid, boring, plodding stuff will get you farther than always going for the home run ball (Do you hear that, Dan Snyder?).

Sometimes the problem of playing things too conservatively is that 4 or 5 years later, you wake up to find yourself exactly where you were 4 or 5 years ago. But, in many cases, this is precisely how you build a successful franchise the right way.

For us fans, the problem is that we're scared to wait those 4-5 years see if Rod's program will pay off because in the end, maybe it won't. Some of us are willing to wait. Some want to see something more spectacular earlier. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

hey jeff, i'm curious what year you consider us to be in?

 

[nationsrj]

Drafts since 2003

I think Graves is doing his job with the draft, whether he is selecting his own choice or for the head coach. I believe there are many factors on getting the draft choices in to camp on time or not. I would say most of the teams have some delay in getting the first rounder in. Especially in the first 10 picks of the draft. Some of the signing problem is due to our continually picking early in the draft.

Graves has selected Green and Whis for the team. Green was a good selection, but his assistant coaches were very inconsistent. I put that on
Green and not Graves. It is too early to say Whis is a good hire or not, but
his assistant coaches seem better than Green's.



2007 R1 Levi Brown T Penn State
R2 Alan Branch DT Michigan
R3 Buster Davis LB Florida State
R5 Steve Breaston WR Michigan
R7 Ben Patrick TE Delaware

1 starters - Levi(R1)
2 contributor - Branch(R2), Breaston(R5)
2 backups - Davis(R3), Patrick(R7)

I would rate this draft a C overall. This is more an incomplete.

Levi is a starter by default. Branch and Breaston will be on the field.
Davis is slowly picking things up, and Patrick is still behind from his
injury.
This is the first year for these players and they are learning the NFL.

2006 R1 Matt Leinart QB USC
R2 Taitusi (Deuce) Lutui G USC
R3 Leonard Pope TE Georgia
R4 Gabriel Watson DT Michigan
R5 Brandon Johnson LB Louisville
R6 Jon Lewis DT Virginia Tech
R7 Todd Watkins WR Brigham Young

4 starters - Matt(R1), Deuce(R2), Pope(R3), Gabe(R4)
2 backups - Brandon(R5), Lewis(R6)
1 gone - Todd Watkins(R7)

I would rate this draft a A- overall.

Matt and Deuce are starting already. Pope and Gabe are starters, but the
team has been disappointed by Pope. Gabe is starting, but Alan Branch
will challenge him for the spot before the end of this year. Both Pope and
Gabe may be moved to contributors next year.
Both Johnson and Lewis are on the bubble this year to make the team.
Watkins did not make the cut.
This is the second year for these players and they should be making
contributions.

2005 R1 Antrel Rolle DB Miami (FL)
R2 J.J. Arrington RB California
R3 Eric Green DB Virginia Tech
R3 Darryl Blackstock LB Virginia
R4 Elton Brown G Virginia
R5 Lance Mitchell LB Oklahoma
R7 LeRon McCoy WR Indiana (Pa.)

1 starter - Eric Green(R3)
2 contributors - Antrel Rolle(R1), JJ Arrington(2)
2 backups - Darryl Blackstock(R3), Elton Brown(R4), LeRon McCoy(R7)
1 gone - Lance Mitchell

I would rate this draft a C overall.

Antrel Rolle is a disappointment, JJ Arrington is slowly growing to play in the
NFL. Blackstock will stay as a backup this season, Elton Brown and LeRon
McCoy are bubble players to make the team this year.
This is the third year for these players and they should be making their case.


2004 R1 Larry Fitzgerald WR Pittsburgh
R2 Karlos Dansby LB Auburn
R3 Darnell Dockett DE Florida State
R4 Alex Stepanovich C Ohio State
R5 Antonio Smith DE Oklahoma State
R6 Nick Leckey C Kansas State
R7 John Navarre QB Michigan

4 starters - Fitz(R1), Karlos Dansby(R2), Darnell Docket(R3), Antonio Smith
(R5)
1 contributor - Nick Leckey(R6)
2 gone - Alex Stepanovich(R4), John Navarre(R7)

I would rate this draft a A- overall.

Alex Stepanovich started while he was here, but not well. John Navarre has
been nothing but a 3rd string QB.



2003 R1 Bryant Johnson WR Penn State
R1 Calvin Pace DE Wake Forest
R2 Anquan Boldin WR Florida State
R3 Gerald Hayes LB Pittsburgh
R5 Kenny King DT Alabama
R6 Reggie Wells T Clarion
R6 Tony Gilbert

3 starters - Q(R2), Gerald Hayes(R3), Reggie Wells(R6)
1 contributors - Bryant Johnson(R1)
1 backup - Calvin Pace (R1)(now starter by injury)
2 gone - Kenny King(R5)(injuries), Tony Gilbert(R6)(never made it)

I would rate this draft a B overall.

The trade down was not good(together BJ and CP would not make up for
Suggs. Kenny King would have been a starter without the wrist? injuries.
Tony Gilbert was the only one that never contributed.



Draft 2005 -

 

[D-Dogg]

From the "Official Cardinal Handbook":

Open Season on Graves Bashing: January 2nd - September 1st

Open Season on Coach Bashing: September 10th - December 30th

In 2007, as always, Ownership Bashing is Open all year.

In the unlikely event of a Playoff run, The Open Season on Graves Bashing will be delayed until the Cardinals lose. However, the Open Season on Coach Bashing will be extended.

In 2007 the moratorium on "Q" Bashing will continue, however Berry has been officially removed from the DNB (Do Not Bash) List until further notice.

JTS

 

[BigRedRage]

Go Big Red!!!!

 

[40yearfan]

But it's not hindsight to say that draft didn't pan out just because at the time it was thought to be a good draft.

An analogy, if Rod Graves was a stock broker and he advised people in 1999 to load up on Enron or Arthur Anderson, people lost their shirts and he would have been fired. At the time that would have seemed like good advice, but when it failed, he would have taken the fall.

The draft is a crap shoot for sure but you judge drafts by how they pan out. Baltimore drafts well and they're good. If you're going to build through the draft you have to draft well, if you don't and you're the one saying we're building through the draft, you have to expect to take some blame.

I am not saying Graves should be fired now but I was quite surprised he got a raise it wasn't based on any tangible improvement in the team. We didn't win more, we had to fire a coach he helped select, and we are now overhauling a roster he helped build, again.

I think he's a nice guy that the Bidwill's trust with their money.

I think Graves is doing his job with the draft, whether he is selecting his own choice or for the head coach. I believe there are many factors on getting the draft choices in to camp on time or not. I would say most of the teams have some delay in getting the first rounder in. Especially in the first 10 picks of the draft. Some of the signing problem is due to our continually picking early in the draft.

Graves has selected Green and Whis for the team. Green was a good selection, but his assistant coaches were very inconsistent. I put that on
Green and not Graves. It is too early to say Whis is a good hire or not, but
his assistant coaches seem better than Green's.



2007 R1 Levi Brown T Penn State
R2 Alan Branch DT Michigan
R3 Buster Davis LB Florida State
R5 Steve Breaston WR Michigan
R7 Ben Patrick TE Delaware

1 starters - Levi(R1)
2 contributor - Branch(R2), Breaston(R5)
2 backups - Davis(R3), Patrick(R7)

I would rate this draft a C overall. This is more an incomplete.

Levi is a starter by default. Branch and Breaston will be on the field.
Davis is slowly picking things up, and Patrick is still behind from his
injury.
This is the first year for these players and they are learning the NFL.

2006 R1 Matt Leinart QB USC
R2 Taitusi (Deuce) Lutui G USC
R3 Leonard Pope TE Georgia
R4 Gabriel Watson DT Michigan
R5 Brandon Johnson LB Louisville
R6 Jon Lewis DT Virginia Tech
R7 Todd Watkins WR Brigham Young

4 starters - Matt(R1), Deuce(R2), Pope(R3), Gabe(R4)
2 backups - Brandon(R5), Lewis(R6)
1 gone - Todd Watkins(R7)

I would rate this draft a A- overall.

Matt and Deuce are starting already. Pope and Gabe are starters, but the
team has been disappointed by Pope. Gabe is starting, but Alan Branch
will challenge him for the spot before the end of this year. Both Pope and
Gabe may be moved to contributors next year.
Both Johnson and Lewis are on the bubble this year to make the team.
Watkins did not make the cut.
This is the second year for these players and they should be making
contributions.

2005 R1 Antrel Rolle DB Miami (FL)
R2 J.J. Arrington RB California
R3 Eric Green DB Virginia Tech
R3 Darryl Blackstock LB Virginia
R4 Elton Brown G Virginia
R5 Lance Mitchell LB Oklahoma
R7 LeRon McCoy WR Indiana (Pa.)

1 starter - Eric Green(R3)
2 contributors - Antrel Rolle(R1), JJ Arrington(2)
2 backups - Darryl Blackstock(R3), Elton Brown(R4), LeRon McCoy(R7)
1 gone - Lance Mitchell

I would rate this draft a C overall.

Antrel Rolle is a disappointment, JJ Arrington is slowly growing to play in the
NFL. Blackstock will stay as a backup this season, Elton Brown and LeRon
McCoy are bubble players to make the team this year.
This is the third year for these players and they should be making their case.


2004 R1 Larry Fitzgerald WR Pittsburgh
R2 Karlos Dansby LB Auburn
R3 Darnell Dockett DE Florida State
R4 Alex Stepanovich C Ohio State
R5 Antonio Smith DE Oklahoma State
R6 Nick Leckey C Kansas State
R7 John Navarre QB Michigan

4 starters - Fitz(R1), Karlos Dansby(R2), Darnell Docket(R3), Antonio Smith
(R5)
1 contributor - Nick Leckey(R6)
2 gone - Alex Stepanovich(R4), John Navarre(R7)

I would rate this draft a A- overall.

Alex Stepanovich started while he was here, but not well. John Navarre has
been nothing but a 3rd string QB.



2003 R1 Bryant Johnson WR Penn State
R1 Calvin Pace DE Wake Forest
R2 Anquan Boldin WR Florida State
R3 Gerald Hayes LB Pittsburgh
R5 Kenny King DT Alabama
R6 Reggie Wells T Clarion
R6 Tony Gilbert

3 starters - Q(R2), Gerald Hayes(R3), Reggie Wells(R6)
1 contributors - Bryant Johnson(R1)
1 backup - Calvin Pace (R1)(now starter by injury)
2 gone - Kenny King(R5)(injuries), Tony Gilbert(R6)(never made it)

I would rate this draft a B overall.

The trade down was not good(together BJ and CP would not make up for
Suggs. Kenny King would have been a starter without the wrist? injuries.
Tony Gilbert was the only one that never contributed.



Draft 2005 -

Looking at it from this angle, I'd say RG is doing a decent job with the draft. No one is saying he's the best GM in the NFL, but with a track record like this, he certainly isn't the worst.

As someone else on here stated, RG just might be the best guy for this job right now considering who he is working for.

BTW, great post Nationsr.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

So why have we been getting high marks by all of the NFL draft gurus for the past 4 years? Going back after the fact and using hindsight to critique a draft is kinda like Monday morning quarterbacking. You need to look at what happened during the time of the draft and how it was perceived at that time.

Everyone knows the draft is a crap shoot and only about 50% of the players pan out. You can look at any NFL team and find failures in some of their high round draft picks.

You can bash Graves all you want. The truth of the matter is that the only thing anyone can really bash him about right now is the won/loss record of this team. He and M. Bidwill have brought this team into the 21st. century. If we start winning this year and sustain that winning, he'll be acknowledged as the person who turned this team into a winning franchise.

you raise a good point 40, but i've been thinking about this for a while. for years we've been getting good draft marks. we seem to get players a round or two after their projected slots. i'm usually ecstatic. then it occurred to me . . . why is this the case? it's b/c the people that are praising our selections are the same people that put together the projections for the most part . . . sports writers. the people that ostensibly do NOT agree with our selections being great are GMs of OTHER football teams (if they did agree with our talent evaluation and the value we're getting in our draft picks they likely would have taken the players in their projected slots). so have our drafts really been that good? or do they just seem good b/c sports writers think they're good? if our talent level has really increased, it should result in wins eventually, but it hasn't. i think as cards fans we ALWAYS think our current crop of players is more talented than prior teams. i think we HAVE to think that otherwise we'd go crazy. but i think the reality is that we believe that b/c these players just haven't had the opp to fail miserably yet. as sad as it is to say that.

 

[kerouac9]

I think Millen should be fired too, I think whoever was the idiot that decided to trade Schaub should be fired(even if we didn't know then Vick was a criminal we did know he was struggling as a real QB). Gm's take the fall for such decisions.

Charley Casserly got fired after his teams produced the exact same record as Graves' did. I'll give Rich McKay the benefit of the doubt because he built multi-year mini-dynasty in Tampa Bay, and by trading Shaub he got rid of a player this season that would have been gone for nothing next year while giving the Falcons flexibility to trade up for Brian Brohm in the 2008 draft (if they're not drafting in a place to get him). McKay remains one of the best FO types in the NFL. Getting Joe Horn in this offseason was a coup, and his drafts have been pretty solid. I think that McKay has a more meddlesome owner in Atlanta than he had in Tampa, which is a reason that you don't see some of the consistently good moves.

It's just weird that Cardinal fans are willing to settle for a General Manager that's easily in the bottom quartile of performers in his position. I feel that people need to stop using the Cards' horrible past as the measuring stick and look around the NFL at the present. Graves doesn't come close to even being all right.

That said, we have some good talent on the offensive side of the ball, and I think that Graves ultimately took a good risk in tapping Whisenhunt to run it. This is Graves' team now, without question.

 

[40yearfan]

you raise a good point 40, but i've been thinking about this for a while. for years we've been getting good draft marks. we seem to get players a round or two after their projected slots. i'm usually ecstatic. then it occurred to me . . . why is this the case? it's b/c the people that are praising our selections are the same people that put together the projections for the most part . . . sports writers. the people that ostensibly do NOT agree with our selections being great are GMs of OTHER football teams (if they did agree with our talent evaluation and the value we're getting in our draft picks they likely would have taken the players in their projected slots). so have our drafts really been that good? or do they just seem good b/c sports writers think they're good? if our talent level has really increased, it should result in wins eventually, but it hasn't. i think as cards fans we ALWAYS think our current crop of players is more talented than prior teams. i think we HAVE to think that otherwise we'd go crazy. but i think the reality is that we believe that b/c these players just haven't had the opp to fail miserably yet. as sad as it is to say that.

You are correct Ouchie. Where we differ is the fact that I think it takes time to build a winning franchise from the crap that RG inherited. This is his fourth year and it's time for results. If we have another losing season this year, the plan didn't work and we are back to square one. Anything less than 8 and 8 this year, I will consider to be a failure. Even considering the fact of the Green debacle, it's time to start winning.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

From the "Official Cardinal Handbook":

Open Season on Graves Bashing: January 2nd - September 1st

Open Season on Coach Bashing: September 10th - December 30th

In 2007, as always, Ownership Bashing is Open all year.

In the unlikely event of a Playoff run, The Open Season on Graves Bashing will be delayed until the Cardinals lose. However, the Open Season on Coach Bashing will be extended.

In 2007 the moratorium on "Q" Bashing will continue, however Berry has been officially removed from the DNB (Do Not Bash) List until further notice.

JTS

Did Adrian Wilson replace Berry on the list?
Also, you forgot another category: Year round whipping boy: the player is who is the cause for all troubles in Cardinal land. This year it is Antrell Rolle's turn replacing the departed Leonard Davis.

 

[Russ Smith]

You are correct Ouchie. Where we differ is the fact that I think it takes time to build a winning franchise from the crap that RG inherited. This is his fourth year and it's time for results. If we have another losing season this year, the plan didn't work and we are back to square one. Anything less than 8 and 8 this year, I will consider to be a failure. Even considering the fact of the Green debacle, it's time to start winning.

Agreed, less than 8 and 8 and I'm very unhappy with Graves.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Russ, I don't disagree with you on much, but we do disagree on this. You do the best job you can and try to do what is right at the time you are doing it. If later, it turns out that some of your decisions were wrong, so be it.

The problem here is that the Graves bashers want to only point out the failures and not acknowledge the successess. No one is perfect and that includes all of us. Graves has had about 4 years now to try and turn this team around. That's not a long time in the scheme of things especially considering the circumstances he's had to work with. I greatly admire Mr. B., but even I will acknowledge that he is not the easiest person to work for. I think he's on the right track while others say he isn't. None of us will know for sure until this season is over.

The really crappy thing about this is the fact that if we do make the playoffs, these same people who are bashing Graves will continue to bash him and give all the credit to the Whiz. It's a no win proposition for RG.

not true at all. though i don't expect it to come to fruition, if this squad makes the playoffs i will acknowledge that graves played a role in the season. i truly do not carry a torch for graves' head, just comment on my observations about the job he's done. and i'm willing to say it here before anything even happens.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

So where do you think we sit in terms of draft failures compared to other NFL teams? Isn't that how you usually base performance? By how your peers are doing?

From what I understand, drafting is a team effort which includes the coaching staff, the scouts and the front office. I realize as the head guy, the onus for the draft will fall on RG, but you also need to realize that there are more people involved. Do we have a good draft team or not?

everything starts at the top. if someone underneath graves is failing it's his job to remove that failure from the organization. accountability starts at the top and trickles down.

i'd cringe to see how we compare to other nfl teams in terms of drafting prowess.

 

[Duckjake]

Did Adrian Wilson replace Berry on the list?
Also, you forgot another category: Year round whipping boy: the player is who is the cause for all troubles in Carinal land. This year it is Antrell Rolle's turn replacing the departed Leonard Davis.

We are in year 5 of the rebuilding plan that started with the 2003 season of no talent at all.

They always lose because they are the Carinals and thats what they do.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I think Graves is doing his job with the draft, whether he is selecting his own choice or for the head coach. I believe there are many factors on getting the draft choices in to camp on time or not. I would say most of the teams have some delay in getting the first rounder in. Especially in the first 10 picks of the draft. Some of the signing problem is due to our continually picking early in the draft.

Graves has selected Green and Whis for the team. Green was a good selection, but his assistant coaches were very inconsistent. I put that on
Green and not Graves. It is too early to say Whis is a good hire or not, but
his assistant coaches seem better than Green's.



2007 R1 Levi Brown T Penn State
R2 Alan Branch DT Michigan
R3 Buster Davis LB Florida State
R5 Steve Breaston WR Michigan
R7 Ben Patrick TE Delaware

1 starters - Levi(R1)
2 contributor - Branch(R2), Breaston(R5)
2 backups - Davis(R3), Patrick(R7)

I would rate this draft a C overall. This is more an incomplete.

Levi is a starter by default. Branch and Breaston will be on the field.
Davis is slowly picking things up, and Patrick is still behind from his
injury.
This is the first year for these players and they are learning the NFL.

2006 R1 Matt Leinart QB USC
R2 Taitusi (Deuce) Lutui G USC
R3 Leonard Pope TE Georgia
R4 Gabriel Watson DT Michigan
R5 Brandon Johnson LB Louisville
R6 Jon Lewis DT Virginia Tech
R7 Todd Watkins WR Brigham Young

4 starters - Matt(R1), Deuce(R2), Pope(R3), Gabe(R4)
2 backups - Brandon(R5), Lewis(R6)
1 gone - Todd Watkins(R7)

I would rate this draft a A- overall.

Matt and Deuce are starting already. Pope and Gabe are starters, but the
team has been disappointed by Pope. Gabe is starting, but Alan Branch
will challenge him for the spot before the end of this year. Both Pope and
Gabe may be moved to contributors next year.
Both Johnson and Lewis are on the bubble this year to make the team.
Watkins did not make the cut.
This is the second year for these players and they should be making
contributions.

2005 R1 Antrel Rolle DB Miami (FL)
R2 J.J. Arrington RB California
R3 Eric Green DB Virginia Tech
R3 Darryl Blackstock LB Virginia
R4 Elton Brown G Virginia
R5 Lance Mitchell LB Oklahoma
R7 LeRon McCoy WR Indiana (Pa.)

1 starter - Eric Green(R3)
2 contributors - Antrel Rolle(R1), JJ Arrington(2)
2 backups - Darryl Blackstock(R3), Elton Brown(R4), LeRon McCoy(R7)
1 gone - Lance Mitchell

I would rate this draft a C overall.

Antrel Rolle is a disappointment, JJ Arrington is slowly growing to play in the
NFL. Blackstock will stay as a backup this season, Elton Brown and LeRon
McCoy are bubble players to make the team this year.
This is the third year for these players and they should be making their case.


2004 R1 Larry Fitzgerald WR Pittsburgh
R2 Karlos Dansby LB Auburn
R3 Darnell Dockett DE Florida State
R4 Alex Stepanovich C Ohio State
R5 Antonio Smith DE Oklahoma State
R6 Nick Leckey C Kansas State
R7 John Navarre QB Michigan

4 starters - Fitz(R1), Karlos Dansby(R2), Darnell Docket(R3), Antonio Smith
(R5)
1 contributor - Nick Leckey(R6)
2 gone - Alex Stepanovich(R4), John Navarre(R7)

I would rate this draft a A- overall.

Alex Stepanovich started while he was here, but not well. John Navarre has
been nothing but a 3rd string QB.



2003 R1 Bryant Johnson WR Penn State
R1 Calvin Pace DE Wake Forest
R2 Anquan Boldin WR Florida State
R3 Gerald Hayes LB Pittsburgh
R5 Kenny King DT Alabama
R6 Reggie Wells T Clarion
R6 Tony Gilbert

3 starters - Q(R2), Gerald Hayes(R3), Reggie Wells(R6)
1 contributors - Bryant Johnson(R1)
1 backup - Calvin Pace (R1)(now starter by injury)
2 gone - Kenny King(R5)(injuries), Tony Gilbert(R6)(never made it)

I would rate this draft a B overall.

The trade down was not good(together BJ and CP would not make up for
Suggs. Kenny King would have been a starter without the wrist? injuries.
Tony Gilbert was the only one that never contributed.



Draft 2005 -

good analysis. but i think it's slightly flawed. you're basing your grades on how these players are panning out with the cards. rather, i think you have to grade 'em on how they would pan out throughout the entire nfl. being a starter on a bad team does not make you a good player or a good selection. it just makes you arguably the "best of the worst." yeah, a lot of starters have come out of the last few drafts, but starters have to come from SOMEWHERE. if they suck and start, they still suck. that's the ultimate barometer, not whether they start, but whether they suck.

 

[Duckjake]

being a starter on a bad team does not make you a good player or a good selection. it just makes you arguably the "best of the worst." yeah, a lot of starters have come out of the last few drafts, but starters have to come from SOMEWHERE. if they suck and start, they still suck. that's the ultimate barometer, not whether they start, but whether they suck.

A perfect description of Raynoch Thompson.

 

[jefftheshark]

Did Adrian Wilson replace Berry on the list?
Also, you forgot another category: Year round whipping boy: the player is who is the cause for all troubles in Cardinal land. This year it is Antrell Rolle's turn replacing the departed Leonard Davis.

Wilson did replace Berry on the list, although Okeafor was making a big push until his unfortunate injury.

You are correct about Rolle being the "Whipping" Award winner. He only won this, however, because the general public just got tired of voting for Pace year after year.

JTS

 

[40yearfan]

everything starts at the top. if someone underneath graves is failing it's his job to remove that failure from the organization. accountability starts at the top and trickles down.

i'd cringe to see how we compare to other nfl teams in terms of drafting prowess.

And without that data, we can't make an informed decision.

Also when you responded to nationsr that the draftees starting for the Cards probably wouldn't start for other NFL teams is not correct or at least can't be ascertained by the current circumstances. Until we play this season and see how they perform under optimum conditions (as optimum as anything can get in Cardinal land), we won't know what we have. The Green regime certainly wasn't an optimum condition.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

And without that data, we can't make an informed decision.

Also when you responded to nationsr that the draftees starting for the Cards probably wouldn't start for other NFL teams is not correct or at least can't be ascertained by the current circumstances. Until we play this season and see how they perform under optimum conditions (as optimum as anything can get in Cardinal land), we won't know what we have. The Green regime certainly wasn't an optimum condition.

agree with your first sentence and even take it a step further . . . how do we even determine the proper criteria for data?

and nowhere did i say that "draftees starting for the Cards probably wouldn't start for other NFL teams" in my response. nor did i even imply it. nor do i think you could even construe my statements as such. you're putting words in my mouth. what i was saying was that starting for the cards - as the sole bit of evidence for determining worth - is poor criteria. that's it. that's all i said.

agree that we won't know about the current rookies until they play. and we can't really use the phrase "optimum conditions" b/c how do you define THAT?!? good players find ways to shine even under poor regimes. aeneas williams is a great example of that. he'd have been great even under denny.

 

[Duckjake]

The Green regime certainly wasn't an optimum condition.

I still don't buy into that line of thinking.

I find it hard to believe a guy could go 15-1 in today's parity laden NFL and turn into a complete idiot just a few years later.

There's more to what went on than we know. I think its just convenient to blame everything on Dennis Green because he's no longer the coach.

Of course several years from now we'll get to see the articles that tell us the rest of the story.

 

[football karma]

I still don't buy into that line of thinking.

I find it hard to believe a guy could go 15-1 in today's parity laden NFL and turn into a complete idiot just a few years later.

There's more to what went on than we know. I think its just convenient to blame everything on Dennis Green because he's no longer the coach.

Of course several years from now we'll get to see the articles that tell us the rest of the story.

I agree DJ--

I think the Denny thing had a few dimensions:

1. He had a far better staff in Minny during that time. Brian Billick was his OC, Tice coached the o-line and Foge Fazio was the DC. He even had Dungy on his staff for a while. Pretty experienced group.

2. I think the money and the downtime prior to coming to AZ totally sapped his drive. He started in Minny as an up and comer trying to make it big. He came to AZ with a reputation and several million in the bank already.

3. I think when he fell in love with Josh McCown, it set things back two years. When the Josh experiment didnt work, and the Kurt experiment didnt work, I think he totally cashed it in.

 

[nationsrj]

good analysis. but i think it's slightly flawed. you're basing your grades on how these players are panning out with the cards. rather, i think you have to grade 'em on how they would pan out throughout the entire nfl. being a starter on a bad team does not make you a good player or a good selection. it just makes you arguably the "best of the worst." yeah, a lot of starters have come out of the last few drafts, but starters have to come from SOMEWHERE. if they suck and start, they still suck. that's the ultimate barometer, not whether they start, but whether they suck.

What I am grading on is first contract with team, are the players staying with team and progressing from backup to contributor to starter or standing still.
With all the team systems and number of people moving teams every year, knowing whether Cardinal Starters would start on other teams can be a difficult decision. I also am looking at Graves drafting for the Cardinals, so drafting starters for the Cardinals is important. I agree that since the Cardinals have been a bad team, more draftees should become starters sooner than on good teams. I believe this is what is happening with the 2006 draft. I am also using the yardstick (somewhat arbitrarily) that within 5 years, at least half of the draft picks have left the team for a variety of reasons. I also am using the idea that it takes 3 years to determine the value of a draft. That is why the current status of the 2005 draft is disappointing. Not because Rolle is not starting, but because only 1 starter and 2 contributors have come out of that draft of 7 players so far.

 

[Duckjake]

I agree DJ--

I think the Denny thing had a few dimensions:

1. He had a far better staff in Minny during that time. Brian Billick was his OC, Tice coached the o-line and Foge Fazio was the DC. He even had Dungy on his staff for a while. Pretty experienced group.

2. I think the money and the downtime prior to coming to AZ totally sapped his drive. He started in Minny as an up and comer trying to make it big. He came to AZ with a reputation and several million in the bank already.

3. I think when he fell in love with Josh McCown, it set things back two years. When the Josh experiment didnt work, and the Kurt experiment didnt work, I think he totally cashed it in.

I could buy that.

What I really think is that the early part of last season convinced Green that the Pottsville curse was real and he gave up after the Bears game.

 

[kerouac9]

I could buy that.

What I really think is that the early part of last season convinced Green that the Pottsville curse was real and he gave up after the Bears game.

That's actually what Bob Kemp believes, as well. He thinks that Denny thought that he could come in here and change the losing culture of the team by saying that it was done. Eventually, the losing culture of the team claimed him.

 

[Russ Smith]

That's actually what Bob Kemp believes, as well. He thinks that Denny thought that he could come in here and change the losing culture of the team by saying that it was done. Eventually, the losing culture of the team claimed him.

I believe that right up until we got the first group of assistants names announced and then I said "uh oh."

 

[jefftheshark]

I believe that right up until we got the first group of assistants names announced and then I said "uh oh."

If I remember correctly, the talk around the board at the time of Denny's hiring and the announcement of his staff, was that the Owners had opened up the purse-strings to hire Denny, but in order to pay him what he wanted, he was told that he had a very tight budget on assistant hires.

That was the reason that he hired friends and no-names, mainly because they were the only people that would accept the $'s being offered.

Once again, it came down to the pie, and the fact that Denny got most of it.

JTS