Not trying to bash but an honest question about Rod Graves.

[Russ Smith]

If I remember correctly, the talk around the board at the time of Denny's hiring and the announcement of his staff, was that the Owners had opened up the purse-strings to hire Denny, but in order to pay him what he wanted, he was told that he had a very tight budget on assistant hires.

That was the reason that he hired friends and no-names, mainly because they were the only people that would accept the $'s being offered.

Once again, it came down to the pie, and the fact that Denny got most of it.

JTS

With some of the guys that's obviously true. With Solomon and Hargrave I just think they were thinking I will never get another NFL job so I better take this one. hargrave was working as an OC at some small college when Green finally got permission to hire him after demoting Wylie.

 

[football karma]

I noticed something watching the current Coors light parody with Denny in it--

the footage they are using is from Green's introductory press conference when he was hired (remember the red jacket?)

Man -- did Denny age in just three years. He looks pretty young and relatively in shape in those Coors light commercials --

I know he has diabetes -- I wonder if his health just took it out of him as well.

 

[CardLogic]

Question?

I am not saying Graves should be fired now but I was quite surprised he got a raise it wasn't based on any tangible improvement in the team.

I read several times now posters making the comment that Graves got a raise. But I don't recall reading that anywhere official. I know that he got a promotion, i.e. - in title and scope of authority, but did he in fact get more compensation???

After all wouldn't it be just like the Bidwells to give a guy a title but no increase in pay...


I want to know; did Rod Graves actually get a pay increase with the new title?

 

[40yearfan]

good analysis. but i think it's slightly flawed. you're basing your grades on how these players are panning out with the cards. rather, i think you have to grade 'em on how they would pan out throughout the entire nfl. being a starter on a bad team does not make you a good player or a good selection. it just makes you arguably the "best of the worst." yeah, a lot of starters have come out of the last few drafts, but starters have to come from SOMEWHERE. if they suck and start, they still suck. that's the ultimate barometer, not whether they start, but whether they suck.

agree with your first sentence and even take it a step further . . . how do we even determine the proper criteria for data?

and nowhere did i say that "draftees starting for the Cards probably wouldn't start for other NFL teams" in my response. nor did i even imply it. nor do i think you could even construe my statements as such. you're putting words in my mouth. what i was saying was that starting for the cards - as the sole bit of evidence for determining worth - is poor criteria. that's it. that's all i said.

So Ouchie, what else could this possibly mean other than the Cards players are inferior to the rest of the NFL players? Here's what you said:

good analysis. but i think it's slightly flawed. you're basing your grades on how these players are panning out with the cards. rather, i think you have to grade 'em on how they would pan out throughout the entire nfl.

That sounds to me like you are comparing them to the rest of the NFL.


agree that we won't know about the current rookies until they play. and we can't really use the phrase "optimum conditions" b/c how do you define THAT?!? good players find ways to shine even under poor regimes. aeneas williams is a great example of that. he'd have been great even under denny.

Sorry Ouchie, but future Hall of Famers do not make good examples when comparing them to the rest of the league. The coaching under DG was not good. Regardless of the reasons, this team did not have NFL caliber coaches and DG just did not seem to care when he was on the field during a game.

I am saying optimum conditions now, because RG has gotten the coaches he wants and the players he wants. We have no more excuses.

 

[Russ Smith]

I read several times now posters making the comment that Graves got a raise. But I don't recall reading that anywhere official. I know that he got a promotion, i.e. - in title and scope of authority, but did he in fact get more compensation???

After all wouldn't it be just like the Bidwells to give a guy a title but no increase in pay...


I want to know; did Rod Graves actually get a pay increase with the new title?

Good point I just assumed it but I don't really know.

 

[joeshmo]

I read several times now posters making the comment that Graves got a raise. But I don't recall reading that anywhere official. I know that he got a promotion, i.e. - in title and scope of authority, but did he in fact get more compensation???

After all wouldn't it be just like the Bidwells to give a guy a title but no increase in pay...


I want to know; did Rod Graves actually get a pay increase with the new title?

They tripled his pay up to 1.3 Mill per year, and a 3 year extension.

Remember he was working without a contract last year.

 

[conraddobler]

RG is bottom 5 in the league at least IMO.

Good guy, patently awful GM.

I point to the thread where all his extened players subsequently get cut.

The way he handled the cap, bad.

Drafts, depends on who you believe actually made the draft board even then, questionable.

Taking credit for DG's drafts right after firing the guy, laughable.

Extending him after canning DG, idiotic.

Things I do credit him with.

Bringing the organization out of the stone age in a lot of respects, most credit there goes to Mike Bidwill though.

His success is mostly administrative in nature, it should lie in his player development IMO.

 

[kerouac9]

I read several times now posters making the comment that Graves got a raise. But I don't recall reading that anywhere official. I know that he got a promotion, i.e. - in title and scope of authority, but did he in fact get more compensation???

After all wouldn't it be just like the Bidwells to give a guy a title but no increase in pay...


I want to know; did Rod Graves actually get a pay increase with the new title?

Graves actually got his new contract and deal when Denny Green--his first choice as head coach--was fired after being a complete failure. Cardinals fire Green after three losing seasons.

The Cardinals think they are close to being a playoff contender, and most of their key young players are under contract. That's why they gave a new contract to Graves, who has worked without a deal since last May.

Graves has been in charge of football operations since 2003, and the team is 20-44 in that time.

"When you look at where the team is in terms of our talent and in terms of the football operations, in terms of how we draft and in terms of how we signed free agents, Rod has done a very good job in terms of building the talent, particularly on offense," Bidwill said.

When asked if there would be changes in the front office, Bidwill dodged the question.

"I think today's news is Rod's (contract) extension and then the head coach search that we're embarking on," he said.

I'm still looking for the source of the value. Something tells me that it was joeshmo quoting league sources. He's not really one to make things like that up, so I kind of believe him.

 

[az1965]

Sometimes the problem of playing things too conservatively is that 4 or 5 years later, you wake up to find yourself exactly where you were 4 or 5 years ago. But, in many cases, this is precisely how you build a successful franchise the right way.

For us fans, the problem is that we're scared to wait those 4-5 years see if Rod's program will pay off because in the end, maybe it won't. Some of us are willing to wait. Some want to see something more spectacular earlier. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Just FYI... its been 5 years now.

 

[Hollywood]

if you honestly believe these two items, why has the team continued to suck?

Well, as it turned out, Dennis Green was insane and insted of being the guiding hand that gave continuity and stability he took the route of chaos. Or so it seemed to me.

 

[40yearfan]

Just FYI... its been 5 years now.

Fuzzy math?

Kinda hard to count 2007 as one of those years seeing as how the season hasn't started yet.

 

[Hollywood]

Fuzzy math?

Kinda hard to count 2007 as one of those years seeing as how the season hasn't started yet.

Preseason is almost over so it counts.

 

[az1965]

Fuzzy math?

Kinda hard to count 2007 as one of those years seeing as how the season hasn't started yet.

2002 - 2006 = 5 years? Am I missing something?

 

[40yearfan]

2002 - 2006 = 5 years? Am I missing something?

The article said he's been in charge since 2003.

 

[Duckjake]

2002 - 2006 = 5 years? Am I missing something?

2002,2003,2004,2005,2006. Thats 5 years.

We are, however, in the last year of our 5 year plan that began following the 2002 season Comrade.

The Wheat crop better be good this fall.

 

[Duckjake]

The article said he's been in charge since 2003.

Rod Graves was promoted to VP of Football Operations following the 2002 season after six years as assistant to the President.

In his new position, Graves assumes responsibility for all facets of the Cardinals football operations.

Straight from the 2003 Media Guide.

So Graves IS solely responsible for the sorry record. Says it right there.

 

[Hollywood]

The article said he's been in charge since 2003.

2002,2003,2004,2005,2006. Thats 5 years.

We are, however, in the last year of our 5 year plan that began following the 2002 season Comrade.

The Wheat crop better be good this fall.

I just checked the Cards site. He was made the man after the 2002 season.

http://azcardinals.com/team/staff_detail.php?PRKey=23

 

[40yearfan]

2002,2003,2004,2005,2006. Thats 5 years.

We are, however, in the last year of our 5 year plan that began following the 2002 season Comrade.

The Wheat crop better be good this fall.

So where do you get that he's been in charge since 2002.

Here's the quote from the article K9 posted:

The Cardinals think they are close to being a playoff contender, and most of their key young players are under contract. That's why they gave a new contract to Graves, who has worked without a deal since last May.

Graves has been in charge of football operations since 2003, and the team is 20-44 in that time.

"When you look at where the team is in terms of our talent and in terms of the football operations, in terms of how we draft and in terms of how we signed free agents, Rod has done a very good job in terms of building the talent, particularly on offense," Bidwill said.

When asked if there would be changes in the front office, Bidwill dodged the question.

"I think today's news is Rod's (contract) extension and then the head coach search that we're embarking on," he said.

 

[Hollywood]

 

[40yearfan]

Rod Graves was promoted to VP of Football Operations following the 2002 season after six years as assistant to the President.

In his new position, Graves assumes responsibility for all facets of the Cardinals football operations.

Straight from the 2003 Media Guide.

So Graves IS solely responsible for the sorry record. Says it right there.

Duckjake, did you read what you posted? He was put in charge "following" the 2002 season. Doesn't that mean after?

 

[Cheesebeef]

serious question for 40 - if we're another 4-6 win team this, will you believe that Graves has had his chance and it's time for someone else?

 

[40yearfan]

serious question for 40 - if we're another 4-6 win team this, will you believe that Graves has had his chance and it's time for someone else?

http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1464268&postcount=33

 

[Hollywood]

http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1464268&postcount=33

I think you have to give Whis a second year. And Rod gets another one by default.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I think you have to give Whis a second year. And Rod gets another one by default.

i agree that you have to give Wiz a second year, but I think you have to give Wiz a competent GM as well if the glaring problems on this team (which have been glaring for numerous years... namely the gaping holes at CB, LB and DC) bite him in the ass, which I believe they will. Continuing to reward Rod with gainful employment when he would have reigned over half a decade of crap just doesn't wash with me and I think Wiz deserves better.

 

[Duckjake]

Duckjake, did you read what you posted? He was put in charge "following" the 2002 season. Doesn't that mean after?

Right, but it was still 2002. Remember the Carinals season ends in October.

So Graves makes the moves in the offseason following the 2002 season. That puts his changes into effect in 2003 which makes 2007 year 5 of the rebuilding plan.