Not trying to bash but an honest question about Rod Graves.

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Sorry Ouchie, but future Hall of Famers do not make good examples when comparing them to the rest of the league. The coaching under DG was not good. Regardless of the reasons, this team did not have NFL caliber coaches and DG just did not seem to care when he was on the field during a game.

I am saying optimum conditions now, because RG has gotten the coaches he wants and the players he wants. We have no more excuses.

i wasn't making any inference. i was just saying EXACTLY what i was saying . . . whether they're starters or not is meaningless in determining if they're good or not. you have to compare them to others in order to determine whether they're good or not. nowhere did i say that such a comparison was automatically going to be negative for the cards players in comparisons. there will be some situations in which the comparison will be favorable. you're making an inference based on your opinion of my posts, not on my actual post here.

 

[40yearfan]

I think you have to give Whis a second year. And Rod gets another one by default.

Normally, it should take about 3 years to turn a franchise around, especially one that was in bad of a shape as this one was. RG has made some mistakes, but he hasn't always had the free hand a GM should have. Because of the circumstances, I figured it would take 4 years and this is the fourth year. If we don't show significant progress this year (hence the 8 - 8 record), the plan is not working and might never work.

With the high expectations that M. Bidwill has for this year, if we have another year go into the tank, he might loose his patience and take over the job himself. I'm not saying this is a bad or a good idea, but it is certainly something that could happen. If the Cards don't start winning, it is going to cost them millions of dollars in seat revenue and M. Bidwill will not stand for that. He is one tough attorney and isn't afraid to act when the situation warrants it.

 

[Hollywood]

i agree that you have to give Wiz a second year, but I think you have to give Wiz a competent GM as well if the glaring problems on this team (which have been glaring for numerous years... namely the gaping holes at CB, LB and DC) bite him in the ass, which I believe they will. Continuing to reward Rod with gainful employment when he would have reigned over half a decade of crap just doesn't wash with me and I think Wiz deserves better.

But if Whis succeeds in his second year it will be with the team Graves built. That is why I say Graves gets another year by default.

 

[Hollywood]

Normally, it should take about 3 years to turn a franchise around, especially one that was in bad of a shape as this one was. RG has made some mistakes, but he hasn't always had the free hand a GM should have. Because of the circumstances, I figured it would take 4 years and this is the fourth year. If we don't show significant progress this year (hence the 8 - 8 record), the plan is not working and might never work.

With the high expectations that M. Bidwill has for this year, if we have another year go into the tank, he might loose his patience and take over the job himself. I'm not saying this is a bad or a good idea, but it is certainly something that could happen. If the Cards don't start winning, it is going to cost them millions of dollars in seat revenue and M. Bidwill will not stand for that. He is one tough attorney and isn't afraid to act when the situation warrants it.

Interesting. I don't know how I would feel about that. I think more than anyone Michael is responsable for the teams turnaround. I will have to give this some thought.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Normally, it should take about 3 years to turn a franchise around, especially one that was in bad of a shape as this one was. RG has made some mistakes, but he hasn't always had the free hand a GM should have. Because of the circumstances, I figured it would take 4 years and this is the fourth year. If we don't show significant progress this year (hence the 8 - 8 record), the plan is not working and might never work.

uh, 40, you do realize this is year FIVE for Rod Graves. Dude was in complete control of the 2003, 2004, 2005 and 2006 seasons - that's four seasons no?

is the debate that I wasn't part of earlier?

 

[40yearfan]

i wasn't making any inference. i was just saying EXACTLY what i was saying . . . whether they're starters or not is meaningless in determining if they're good or not. you have to compare them to others in order to determine whether they're good or not. nowhere did i say that such a comparison was automatically going to be negative for the cards players in comparisons. there will be some situations in which the comparison will be favorable. you're making an inference based on your opinion of my posts, not on my actual post here.

Ouchie, you are talking in circles. Did Cheese cast you in the leading role for "Caberet"?

 

[40yearfan]

uh, 40, you do realize this is year FIVE for Rod Graves. Dude was in complete control of the 2003, 2004, 2005 and 2006 seasons - that's four seasons no?

is the debate that I wasn't part of earlier?

Yes it is year 5 Cheese, but can you count it as a year under RG's control when the year hasn't even started yet? He's had this team for 4 years, going on 5. We can't credit this year to him until we know what the results are, can we?

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Ouchie, you are talking in circles. Did Cheese cast you in the leading role for "Caberet"?

i'm not getting into a fight with you 40, but honestly, is there ANYONE else out there that thinks my posts about this topic are talking in circles? honestly . . . ANYONE? and if so, can you point out where so i can understand. i'm really not trying to be an ass, i'm trying to learn what it is that 40 sees so i can avoid it in the future. if it's just 40 i'll ignore it.

 

[Cheesebeef]

But if Whis succeeds in his second year it will be with the team Graves built. That is why I say Graves gets another year by default.

I really don't care if that happens with the team that Graves "built" and I think that's even a stretch because I'm assuming with a new GM, a) we'd bring in a new DC and a good deal of defensive players THAT WE'VE NEEDED FOREVER, thus, it would be a combo of what DG did, what Graves did, what Whiz had done and what the new GM had done.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Yes it is year 5 Cheese, but can you count it as a year under RG's control when the year hasn't even started yet? He's had this team for 4 years, going on 5. We can't credit this year to him until we know what the results are, can we?

this i agree with, but i also think if you can't turn around a franchise in 3 years in this day and age you stink. but i know 40 and i disagree on this sentiment, and that's fine.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Yes it is year 5 Cheese, but can you count it as a year under RG's control when the year hasn't even started yet? He's had this team for 4 years, going on 5. We can't credit this year to him until we know what the results are, can we?

i guess I'm misunderstanding what your saying then - are you saying that with a team like ours, that it's a four year rebuilding job where the rewards shouldn't be expected until year 5?

 

[Hollywood]

Anyone remember what year the stadium passed the vote. Shouldn't that be taken into account since the money and power didn't really start to flow untill then?

 

[40yearfan]

i guess I'm misunderstanding what your saying then - are you saying that with a team like ours, that it's a four year rebuilding job where the rewards shouldn't be expected until year 5?

From my way of looking at it, I am only counting the years Green was here. That's truly when the turnaround started. Green was here for 3 years. We are now entering the 4th year.

 

[40yearfan]

this i agree with, but i also think if you can't turn around a franchise in 3 years in this day and age you stink. but i know 40 and i disagree on this sentiment, and that's fine.

Ouchie, if it was anyone else than the Cards, I would agree with you. Three years should be enough time.

 

[Duckjake]

i guess I'm misunderstanding what your saying then - are you saying that with a team like ours, that it's a four year rebuilding job where the rewards shouldn't be expected until year 5?

I think that's what he means but this is what he wrote: I figured it would take 4 years and this is the fourth year.

 

[40yearfan]

From my way of looking at it, I am only counting the years Green was here. That's truly when the turnaround started. Green was here for 3 years. We are now entering the 4th year.

I think that's what he means but this is what he wrote: I figured it would take 4 years and this is the fourth year.

*

 

[Cheesebeef]

Anyone remember what year the stadium passed the vote. Shouldn't that be taken into account since the money and power didn't really start to flow untill then?

no - for the entire decade previous to 2003, we went 7-9, 8-8, 4-12, 7-9, 3-13, 9-7, 6-10, 3-13, 7-9 never going more than two seasons (and most times, it was actually just one) without even being "competitive" as opposed to the four year run as complete laughing stock since Graves came to this team and starting running the show. Think about how sad that is - as horrific as we've been over the last two decades, Graves, even with the stadium vote passed, has led us to the most inept 4 four years period Arizona Cardinal fans have ever seen.

 

[Cheesebeef]

From my way of looking at it, I am only counting the years Green was here. That's truly when the turnaround started. Green was here for 3 years. We are now entering the 4th year.

ah, okay. I completely disagree, but I see what you're saying now.

 

[40yearfan]

no - for the entire decade previous to 2003, we went 7-9, 8-8, 4-12, 7-9, 3-13, 9-7, 6-10, 3-13, 7-9 never going more than two seasons (and most times, it was actually just one) without even being "competitive" as opposed to the four year run as complete laughing stock since Graves came to this team and starting running the show. Think about how sad that is - as horrific as we've been over the last two decades, Graves, even with the stadium vote passed, has led us to the most inept 4 four years period Arizona Cardinal fans have ever seen.

Just like an alcoholic Cheese. Ya gotta hit rock bottom before you can admit you have an addiction or you are as bad as the Cards were. Band aids won't work.

 

[Cheesebeef]

oh, and just because this thread is getting the most looks right now, let me hijack for a second and implore everyone to go check out this documentary:

KING OF KONG: A FISTFUL OF QUARTERS

I personally have nothing to do with the film, but it's just awesome. If it's playing near you, check it out.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Just like an alcoholic Cheese. Ya gotta hit rock bottom before you can admit you have an addiction or you are as bad as the Cards were. Band aids won't work.

that's just it, Rod Graves is the guy who has driven us down to rock bottom. It's at that point that you're right - band aids won't work and you need to go cold turkey, i.e., get rid of the thing that led you to rock bottom, i.e. Rod Graves.

 

[Duckjake]

I figured it would take 4 years and this is the fourth year

Yes it is year 5 Cheese, but can you count it as a year under RG's control when the year hasn't even started yet? He's had this team for 4 years, going on 5. We can't credit this year to him until we know what the results are, can we?

From my way of looking at it, I am only counting the years Green was here. That's truly when the turnaround started. Green was here for 3 years. We are now entering the 4th year.

I'm only counting the year Whisenhunt has been here but since the year hasn't started Whisenhunt isn't really here. So Graves should get at least 3 more years, or is it 4?

 

[jefftheshark]

I'm only counting the year Whisenhunt has been here but since the year hasn't started Whisenhunt isn't really here. So Graves should get at least 3 more years, or is it 4?

He gets 21 years (because they're dog years).

JTS

 

[az1965]

You are correct Ouchie. Where we differ is the fact that I think it takes time to build a winning franchise from the crap that RG inherited. This is his fourth year and it's time for results. If we have another losing season this year, the plan didn't work and we are back to square one. Anything less than 8 and 8 this year, I will consider to be a failure. Even considering the fact of the Green debacle, it's time to start winning.

I agree, anything less than 8-8 will be considered a failure!

 

[az1965]

I just checked the Cards site. He was made the man after the 2002 season.

http://azcardinals.com/team/staff_detail.php?PRKey=23

Ok, I was wrong. I thought he was made the man in 2002... so he has another year by 40's guideline to turn it into a non-losing franchise which means 8-8 will be acceptable as progress