ok after the bye josh or kurt?

[conraddobler]

Why would you go back to Warner? This team is not going to the playoffs, so what we he provide that McCown isn't?

This team needs to develop talent for this future. Regardless if you think Josh is the Qb of the future.. it is pretty much more clear that Warner isn't so why waste finding out if Josh can continue developing?

This team could get on a roll.

Something in the back of my mind says that it's not as outlandish as we all might think.

Couple of reasons.

The bye week gives a hugely needed break to focus on what we need to focus on.

A. Running the ball

B. The Red Zone

C. Getting healthy


I expect us to win the Titans game, DG has a pretty good record after a bye and from there if the running game develops we will be a team no one wants to play.

I can honestly see this team comming out guns blazing because they are pissed.

They are hungry and tired of losing and talented but raw, if there is a giant amount of coaching going on these two weeks we can hit the ground fresh and do some damage.

This division is weak and for the taking even from where we stand right now.

 

[clif]

This team could get on a roll.

Something in the back of my mind says that it's not as outlandish as we all might think.

Couple of reasons.

The bye week gives a hugely needed break to focus on what we need to focus on.

A. Running the ball

B. The Red Zone

C. Getting healthy


I expect us to win the Titans game, DG has a pretty good record after a bye and from there if the running game develops we will be a team no one wants to play.

I can honestly see this team comming out guns blazing because they are pissed.

They are hungry and tired of losing and talented but raw, if there is a giant amount of coaching going on these two weeks we can hit the ground fresh and do some damage.

This division is weak and for the taking even from where we stand right now.

I agree and was going to post, but I was trying to clear up the notion that I don't see what Warner would have done that would be any different than Josh.

 

[Shane]

I agree and was going to post, but I was trying to clear up the notion that I don't see what Warner would have done that would be any different than Josh.

Not much of anything IMO. His play in the previous two and a half games shows that.

 

[Rats]

Everyone knows I am a big Pro Josh guy but I do not think that Kurt would have fared alot worse in the last two games than Josh. There has been good pass protection and Kurt delivers the ball quicker than Josh does. I am still a proponent of signing both of these guys for the next couple of years at 2.5 mil a season. Every team needs a good starter and backup and I think both of these guys can get it done. The alternative is someone out of college or someone who would have to learn the system next season which means more losing. Josh has shown that he can start and finish games. Kurt when healthy is as good as it gets. I think they can co exist and we will be a better team for it. Why does it have to be either or? One can start one can be ready when and if needed. It's better than getting a FA or rookie and losing next season. Fix the line and let these guys co exist. Then we have good depth at Qb. And also ....GET THEM A RUNNING GAME!!!

 

[Shane]

Everyone knows I am a big Pro Josh guy but I do not think that Kurt would have fared alot worse in the last two games than Josh. There has been good pass protection and Kurt delivers the ball quicker than Josh does. I am still a proponent of signing both of these guys for the next couple of years at 2.5 mil a season. Every team needs a good starter and backup and I think both of these guys can get it done. The alternative is someone out of college or someone who would have to learn the system next season which means more losing. Josh has shown that he can start and finish games. Kurt when healthy is as good as it gets. I think they can co exist and we will be a better team for it. Why does it have to be either or? One can start one can be ready when and if needed. It's better than getting a FA or rookie and losing next season. Fix the line and let these guys co exist. Then we have good depth at Qb. And also ....GET THEM A RUNNING GAME!!!

When exactly was Kurt as good as it got when healthy?

Are you referring to his mental meltdown in the Rams game? The 10 minute span in that game where he overthrew a wide open Johnson on 2 long routes and underthrew him on another throwing an INT, or was it his two fumbles in the same time span?

Was it his piss poor play in the second half of the Giants game?

 

[Rats]

When exactly was Kurt as good as it got when healthy?

Are you referring to his mental meltdown in the Rams game? The 10 minute span in that game where he overthrew a wide open Johnson on 2 long routes and underthrew him on another throwing an INT, or was it his two fumbles in the same time span?

Was it his piss poor play in the second half of the Giants game?

I was refering to Kurts pedigree not necessarily his play in his brief time on the Cardinals. I think with time and now that this team is coming around to the DG system of throwing downfield and utilizing there strengths( Wr.) that the players in the system will be by far the ones to get us winning quickly rather than losing with new guys. That is what it is all about. Winning. Not who is the starter or the backup. There are many reasons teams lose and in most cases it is because of an inability to execute the plays called. Yesterday was a team loss. You can't continue turning over the roster and find success. We have to have continuity on the team for it to get on a roll. These two Qb give us the best chance this year and next.

 

[conraddobler]

I was refering to Kurts pedigree not necessarily his play in his brief time on the Cardinals. I think with time and now that this team is coming around to the DG system of throwing downfield and utilizing there strengths( Wr.) that the players in the system will be by far the ones to get us winning quickly rather than losing with new guys. That is what it is all about. Winning. Not who is the starter or the backup. There are many reasons teams lose and in most cases it is because of an inability to execute the plays called. Yesterday was a team loss. You can't continue turning over the roster and find success. We have to have continuity on the team for it to get on a roll. These two Qb give us the best chance this year and next.

I could agree with you on Kurt if we had a good, not average but like top 10 run game.

At that point he'd be perfect.

He'd be lethal in that scenario assuming he got the protection Josh did.

However, even on a couple plays Josh had to run for his life and that would have been a sack of Warner.

I think if you tallied it up at least two more sacks would have resulted from Warner playing, possibly killing key drives or worse.


That's not the worst problem Kurt poses though, I think his ability to read defenses and deliver the ball quickly would make most of that a non-issue, the sacks I mean.

The thing that concerns me most wouldn't be the sacks but the absolute premium it would put on all out blitz after blitz he'd see because they would have no fear he'd take off and run.

If the protection fails once every 10 times he's going to get beat to a bloody pulp by the end of the game because he's going to attempt 50 passes to win without a run game.

That's a minimum of 5 savage hits a game, more likely about 10 when you figure in the times he delivers the ball but still takes a hit and he will never last through that.

 

[Rats]

I could agree with you on Kurt if we had a good, not average but like top 10 run game.

At that point he'd be perfect.

He'd be lethal in that scenario assuming he got the protection Josh did.

However, even on a couple plays Josh had to run for his life and that would have been a sack of Warner.

I think if you tallied it up at least two more sacks would have resulted from Warner playing, possibly killing key drives or worse.


That's not the worst problem Kurt poses though, I think his ability to read defenses and deliver the ball quickly would make most of that a non-issue, the sacks I mean.

The thing that concerns me most wouldn't be the sacks but the absolute premium it would put on all out blitz after blitz he'd see because they would have no fear he'd take off and run.

If the protection fails once every 10 times he's going to get beat to a bloody pulp by the end of the game because he's going to attempt 50 passes to win without a run game.

That's a minimum of 5 savage hits a game, more likely about 10 when you figure in the times he delivers the ball but still takes a hit and he will never last through that.

This is a good argument for keeping Kurt as the backup and playing Josh, however we did not see Kurt get beat to a bloody pulp the first three games and he was not the reason we lost them either. He is a solid NFL Qb as is Josh and having both on our roster next season as this team grows and gets better is the best way to get wins this year and next.

 

[ajcardfan]

This is a good argument for keeping Kurt as the backup and playing Josh, however we did not see Kurt get beat to a bloody pulp the first three games and he was not the reason we lost them either. He is a solid NFL Qb as is Josh and having both on our roster next season as this team grows and gets better is the best way to get wins this year and next.

No, he did not get beat to a bloody pulp. And, he was actually a little more mobile than I expected. He did pull his groin just running out of the pocket though. Not the sort of injury that makes me hopeful he can hold up over time.

 

[Rats]

No, he did not get beat to a bloody pulp. And, he was actually a little more mobile than I expected. He did pull his groin just running out of the pocket though. Not the sort of injury that makes me hopeful he can hold up over time.

Kurt would not hold up over a 16 game season. I think everyone agrees on that. However if Josh is sucking and not playing well I would not hesitate for Green to give the ball to Kurt rather than to a Navarre or Davey or like last year a King( worst move ever). These two guys I think can give us a tandem that can get it done on Sunday and this is evidence by the fact they are putting up good numbers without a decent running game. If they get that extra weapon next year they will be hard to stop.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

No, he did not get beat to a bloody pulp. And, he was actually a little more mobile than I expected. He did pull his groin just running out of the pocket though. Not the sort of injury that makes me hopeful he can hold up over time.

When JOSH got blasted on the first play against SF, my first thought was that had it been WARNER, he'd be on IR right now...

 

[seesred]

A key reason Josh will have less sacks is that when the defense is coming that got to be aware of his ability to run the ball. Just look at this past Sunday..Down by 4 points. It's first and 10. No one is open Josh runs and misses the first down by inches. Could Warner have done that given us a chance? I like Kurt Warner and respect him as a player and a person. There are few better men. It's Josh's time.

GBR
40

 

[moklerman]

I don't agree that pulling his groin illustrates how injury prone Warner is. I've seen plenty of wr's and rb's pull hamstrings or groins in similar fashion. Guys blow out knee's all the time when no one is around them. Making that unexpected cut or running at the wrong time can cause these unexpected injuries.

Also, I don't think you want to micro analyze Warner's games. To criticize his throw down the sideline that was intercepted is somewhat ludicrous in my opinion. The ball was thrown 40 yards down the field, in stride and hit the receiver in the chest rather than out front on his hands. It wasn't absolutely perfect. But hardly a pass that should be criticized.

He's missed a couple of throws here and there? Gimme a break. Have you been watching the games? The first three games of the season the offense was a JOKE. JOOOOOOKE. The o-line, rb's and in frequent instances the wr's all sucked. So, Warner didn't play light's out at qb surrounded by the Keystone Cops, what do you expect? Now that McCown has played decently (7 turnovers in his 2+ games) against two of the worst defenses in the league right now you want to give up on the season and devote it the Josh McCown experiment?

But I suppose it's pointless to argue some of these points if Warner is still blamed for not spiking the ball against the Rams. He was running the offense the coach wanted. He had to wait for the substitutions to come in from the sideline 20 yards away. They were trying to exploit a matchup in the defense.

 

[ajcardfan]

I don't agree that pulling his groin illustrates how injury prone Warner is. I've seen plenty of wr's and rb's pull hamstrings or groins in similar fashion. Guys blow out knee's all the time when no one is around them. Making that unexpected cut or running at the wrong time can cause these unexpected injuries.

Yep, Timm Rosenbach blew his knee out on a noncontact play. Any team, every team, needs two solid QBs.

 

[moklerman]

A key reason Josh will have less sacks is that when the defense is coming that got to be aware of his ability to run the ball. Just look at this past Sunday..Down by 4 points. It's first and 10. No one is open Josh runs and misses the first down by inches. Could Warner have done that given us a chance? I like Kurt Warner and respect him as a player and a person. There are few better men. It's Josh's time.

GBR
40

Is this the rationale for Cardinals fans? McCown getting 9 yards on 4th and 10 is somehow a good thing? Carolina hands the Cardinals a gift from heaven and McCown leads them on a 4 and out and that proves he's a better qb than Warner? Remember when Warner drove the team 70+ yards to the goal line and the left tackle lost the game? But that was Warner's fault. McCown blows a two minute drill against a prevent defense and he's a hero? What am I missing.

I'm biased toward Warner. I admit it. But, I really think Cardinals fans have been mired in mediocrity for so long that their perception is warped. I'm not saying that to be cruel but I really think Card's fans have such low expectations and such little basis for comparison that they get excited about things that aren't deserving.

 

[Rats]

h

Is this the rationale for Cardinals fans? McCown getting 9 yards on 4th and 10 is somehow a good thing? Carolina hands the Cardinals a gift from heaven and McCown leads them on a 4 and out and that proves he's a better qb than Warner? Remember when Warner drove the team 70+ yards to the goal line and the left tackle lost the game? But that was Warner's fault. McCown blows a two minute drill against a prevent defense and he's a hero? What am I missing.

I'm biased toward Warner. I admit it. But, I really think Cardinals fans have been mired in mediocrity for so long that their perception is warped. I'm not saying that to be cruel but I really think Card's fans have such low expectations and such little basis for comparison that they get excited about things that aren't deserving.

The what...you are missing is that Josh has upside and a career ahead of him as a player. Kurt has a couple of years as a mentor/player left in his tank. Advice would be to not come to a Cards board and tell the fans we have warped reality. I want Kurt on this team but I recognize what he brings to the table and it is not more than two years of Qb security as a starter. We have to see if Josh can give us more than that. If you think Kurt has more than that then I would suggest it is you that has a warped perception of reality. I think we should sign both Qb because they seem to be able to work well together and check there ego for the good of the Team. That can get us wins and that is what matters. The team is what we are rooting for here....you just want to Troll as another Warnerphile.

 

[seesred]

here are two words that best describe Warner at this stage in his pro football playing days....Emmitt Smith.

GBR
40

 

[Rats]

here are two words that best describe Warner at this stage in his pro football playing days....Emmitt Smith.

GBR
40

You are correct sir

 

[moklerman]

How am I trolling? I've expressed my points honestly and as clearly as possible. Just because you don't agree doesn't mean you should pull the troll card. On top of all of that, I've never concealed the fact that I'm a Warner fan, not a Cardinals fan. So, please stop with the Troll nonsense.

Now, to your opinion. McCown has a career ahead of him? Based on what? Cardinals fans should know better than anyone the long list of qb's that had apparent potential but wound up just fading away. To me, McCown is no more than Kordell Stewart. Physical talent but just doesn't have "it" as a qb. At least, so far. Who knows what the future will bring but seeing McCown revert to his bad habits and fail when the game was on the line, just when I was starting to think he might be able to take the next step, doesn't make me much of a believer at this point.

Warner only has two years tops? Bledsoe, Elway, Marino, Testaverde, etc. All were and are productive at near 40 years old. That would be 3+ years left potentially. I understand your point but I think it's a romantic notion in this day and age of the NFL to have "long term" solution at any position. Most qb's have 3 or 4 year runs at best so Warner giving the Cardinals (potentially)2 solid years of veteran performance seems better than experimenting with McCown.

Here's a scenario: what if you do stick with McCown and he really performs well? Do you have faith in the Cardinals front office to spend the money to retain him should a lucrative offer come in from elsewhere? Granted, McCown would "probably" be loyal to the franchise but given the Bidwill's history of penny pinching....Can you imagine if McCown puts up 3,500 yards and 25 td's and the Card's let him go? Assuming Warner played comparbly to McCown, I know he would re-sign.

Lastly, if Warner remains the starter and puts up the types of numbers both qb's have been showing so far, and McCown remained a solid #2 wouldn't that be better than McCown putting up similar numbers and having Warner leave at the end of the year? That might be the biggest factor in which qb should be the starter. With Warner starting the Cardinals have depth at qb. With McCown, there are huge question marks at the end of the year.

 

[Rats]

How am I trolling? I've expressed my points honestly and as clearly as possible. Just because you don't agree doesn't mean you should pull the troll card. On top of all of that, I've never concealed the fact that I'm a Warner fan, not a Cardinals fan. So, please stop with the Troll nonsense.

Now, to your opinion. McCown has a career ahead of him? Based on what? Cardinals fans should know better than anyone the long list of qb's that had apparent potential but wound up just fading away. To me, McCown is no more than Kordell Stewart. Physical talent but just doesn't have "it" as a qb. At least, so far. Who knows what the future will bring but seeing McCown revert to his bad habits and fail when the game was on the line, just when I was starting to think he might be able to take the next step, doesn't make me much of a believer at this point.

Warner only has two years tops? Bledsoe, Elway, Marino, Testaverde, etc. All were and are productive at near 40 years old. That would be 3+ years left potentially. I understand your point but I think it's a romantic notion in this day and age of the NFL to have "long term" solution at any position. Most qb's have 3 or 4 year runs at best so Warner giving the Cardinals (potentially)2 solid years of veteran performance seems better than experimenting with McCown.

Here's a scenario: what if you do stick with McCown and he really performs well? Do you have faith in the Cardinals front office to spend the money to retain him should a lucrative offer come in from elsewhere? Granted, McCown would "probably" be loyal to the franchise but given the Bidwill's history of penny pinching....Can you imagine if McCown puts up 3,500 yards and 25 td's and the Card's let him go? Assuming Warner played comparbly to McCown, I know he would re-sign.

Lastly, if Warner remains the starter and puts up the types of numbers both qb's have been showing so far, and McCown remained a solid #2 wouldn't that be better than McCown putting up similar numbers and having Warner leave at the end of the year? That might be the biggest factor in which qb should be the starter. With Warner starting the Cardinals have depth at qb. With McCown, there are huge question marks at the end of the year.

I am not going to address all of this with a Warnerphile that has no use for the Cardinals beyond his bias for Warner. Kurt is a fine Qb I have liked for sometime. He is not now or will be the teams future. He was signed to win this year. McCown could be more than this. We don't know. We need to find out. I would hope that Kurt would stay as there are limited options for him elsewhere but believe what you want to believe. To troll is to pose baiting questions of a teams fans on there messageboard to solicit a reaction. You have succeed with your first message. Now go away.

 

[moklerman]

I am not going to address all of this with a Warnerphile that has no use for the Cardinals beyond his bias for Warner.

I really don't know how to respond to this. Where else in the world would you discuss something like this? Warner is on the Cardinals. I'm on a Cardinals board. This is a thread, started by someone else, about the qb situation for the Cardinals. I've presented my opinions and thoughts on subjects within the thread. I've been honest about my motivation and position and your response is: "Go away, Troll."

Karma, dude.

 

[ajcardfan]

I really don't know how to respond to this. Where else in the world would you discuss something like this? Warner is on the Cardinals. I'm on a Cardinals board. This is a thread, started by someone else, about the qb situation for the Cardinals. I've presented my opinions and thoughts on subjects within the thread. I've been honest about my motivation and position and your response is: "Go away, Troll."

Karma, dude.

Don't sweat it. I don't consider your posts trolling, I doubt the other mods do either. But, I think if you go to any board of any team and say "I'm not a fan of your team..." you're bound to raise some hackles.

 

[moklerman]

Don't sweat it. I don't consider your posts trolling, I doubt the other mods do either. But, I think if you go to any board of any team and say "I'm not a fan of your team..." you're bound to raise some hackles.

I agree and I don't do it lightly. But, in my opinion I think it's better to be up front about why I'm here and where I stand. Now, if I had said that I hated the Cardinals and was wishing them ill will I could understand the animosity. Oh well, you can't please everyone I suppose.

Thanks.

 

[coyotesareback]

Mokler for the record Carolina does NOT have one of the worst defenses in the league! They have alot of solid players and have been one of the better defenses over the last few years, and not too much has changed.

McCown has some upside in that he is young and talented, warner while talented is at the END of his career. No point in moving forward with someone that is not going to be around very long.

 

[john h]

with all due respect Josh McCown did NOT lose this game for us. I am sure none of you were bitching when he was moving the O up and down the field and scoring (two games in a row now BETTER than warner). Josh should be the starter our O performs much better it seems with Josh at QB. Boldins fumble cost us the game for the record.

No one person ever loses or wins the game. It is usually a team effort. We tend to remember big plays both good and bad but it is the routine plays in and out that we pay little attention to that often decides the winner and loser.