OK, I've seen enough of Kurt today

[RugbyMuffin]

[/B]


You hit the nail on the head. That is what aging vets do. They can still have great games and they can have real stinkers. KW is an aging vet and will be inconsistant as the season rolls on. That is where the Jeckle and Hyde threads comes from. Or the good KW and the bad KW.

Agreed.

I don't like the fact that our coaches don't understand that situation. It is not like this is something new with Kurt Warner. When he is off, he is off. Sure, we like to talk about how Warner ALMOST came back in this game, and in that game.

But, seriously how many times have you seen Warner come back from 21+ point deficeit ?

Yeah, there is a bunch of "woudla, coulda, shoulda" talk when this is brought up but when it comes down to it, when Warner is off, he is off and the game is pretty much a wash if he is kept in.

Isn't this the perfect oppourtunity to play Matt Leinart, and see what the guy has ? Why give Leinart all that money ? Why say "we have confidence in Matt" and not put him out onto the field ?

I mean Jim Kelly for the Bills could have HORRIBLE games, and they would put Frank Riech in to give the team a chance. A lot of times Frank Riech did a good job in those situations, AND Kelly was back starting the next week.

I dunno. I think yesterday was a missed oppourtunity to get Leinart in, and to give our team a chance. It is not like the Cardinals were able to pass vertically, as it has been said 100 times, they dinked and dunked all day long, which Leinart can do.

"Am I wrong ?" - W. Sobcheck

 

[DeAnna]

Jeezus, people! I was yelling as loud as anyone at the television that Warner needed to be sat down today, but that doesn't mean he's "done" or has a "dead arm," it means he was having a crappy day.

Leinart should have come in for the second half. Warner should have taken all the reps he usually does with the first team this coming week and he should start next week.

This board is such a rollercoaster. "He's done!" "He's a football god!" He's done!" The good news is that if we're following a pattern, he'll be a god again next week.

LoL, that's called being a short-sighted alarmist.

The Peppers pick was a good call. If only Gandy had actually done his job on the cut block, Peppers would've been on the ground instead of the endzone.

The only one I'm putting on Kurt was the fumble. Kurt has been drilled by the coaches not to force the ball down the field and take the check downs. He's just doing what he's told. Most of the game they had a safety deep shadowing Fitz.

 

[Zeno]

LoL, that's called being a short-sighted alarmist.

The Peppers pick was a good call. If only Gandy had actually done his job on the cut block, Peppers would've been on the ground instead of the endzone.

The only one I'm putting on Kurt was the fumble. Kurt has been drilled by the coaches not to force the ball down the field and take the check downs. He's just doing what he's told. Most of the game they had a safety deep shadowing Fitz.

Gandy may have missed his block but that throw was still awful--it just means 2 people were at fault not one. The only turnover that wasn't Warners fault was the one that hit Urban square in the hands.

 

[Russ Smith]

If that is the case, then we sould have traded Leinart for a pass rusher in the offseason.

Paying a guy 2.6 mil, and calling him the Quarterback of the future and then when Warner, who is WELL known for having these type of games, starts showing it is not his day and we do not put Leinart in ?

Sorry. Not buying it. That is a bad call, and a bad showing of trust in Matt Leinart. Leinart has shown the ability to throw for a lot of yards, to run the 2 minute offense, and I have seen him throw a ball away when nothing is there. Leinart was our best chance to win yesterday and he sat on the bench.

Once again, could have traded Leinart for a pass rusher, and maybe then traded the 5.4 million dollar Chike Okeafor for a pair of cleats with no laces and a deflated football. Just to bring up another player who played HORRIBLY, and has done nothing for 3 years.

Now, to repeat what I said before. Warner should start next week, and even if Leinart went in yesterday, Warner should still be the starter. It was just not Warner's day.

Why trade your QB of the future when Warner is 38 coming off hip surgery?

My point was down 21 the best chance we had to get back in the game was spread the field and pass the ball, and that's Warner's game not Leinart's.

Under Matt the offense will be more balanced, and I absolutely believe Matt can and will be the QB for this franchise for years to come. But the best chance we had to rally yesterday was to essentially do what we did against the Jets last year.

What surprised me is that it seems Whiz doesn't have the same level of trust in Kurt this year because we really didn't go all out no huddle hurry up offense. Even later in the game the FOX guys were saying there's no sense of urgency. I think the first half Kurt was just bad enough to really make Whiz doubt do I really want to let him call every play at the LOS?

If Kurt were hurt absolutely go to Matt, but otherwise you're talking about a guy who's barely played recently and isn't getting many reps in practice, throw him in the game and ask him to throw 25-30 times in the 2nd half. Just not likely to work out.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

What people who are calling for Matt in yesterdays game are failing to recognize is that it is not as black or white as "Kurt doesn't have it today lets see what Matt has got".

Changing your QB is a BIG deal in the NFL. Especially with the egos we have in place on this team. It's not like bringing in the back up OL.

If Wiz is to go to Matt yesterday and he had a couple good drives what do you think the talk would be centered around this week? The QB controversy. As a team that is 4-3 and still in a very good spot in the division you can't do that as a HC. You have to be responsible when going to Matt, because when you do, it will likely be for good. I don't think Wiz is ready to do that and neither am I.

I was caught up in the emotion of yesterday (see post #2) but Wiz absolutely did the right thing keeping Kurt in the game. He just would have muddied the waters by going to Matt and had Kurt questioning the coaching staff and the commitment to him.

Matt's time will come. But it wasn't yesterday. And that doesn't say ANYTHING about their faith in Matt.

Rather it speaks to Whisenhunt understanding of the big picture and not making moves based on emotion.

So while in theory yesterday would have been a good chance to see Matt play, in reality it would have cause a tidal wave of disharmony for a team that is still very much the favorite to win this division.

 

[Russ Smith]

Agreed.

I don't like the fact that our coaches don't understand that situation. It is not like this is something new with Kurt Warner. When he is off, he is off. Sure, we like to talk about how Warner ALMOST came back in this game, and in that game.

But, seriously how many times have you seen Warner come back from 21+ point deficeit ?

Yeah, there is a bunch of "woudla, coulda, shoulda" talk when this is brought up but when it comes down to it, when Warner is off, he is off and the game is pretty much a wash if he is kept in.

Isn't this the perfect oppourtunity to play Matt Leinart, and see what the guy has ? Why give Leinart all that money ? Why say "we have confidence in Matt" and not put him out onto the field ?

I mean Jim Kelly for the Bills could have HORRIBLE games, and they would put Frank Riech in to give the team a chance. A lot of times Frank Riech did a good job in those situations, AND Kelly was back starting the next week.

I dunno. I think yesterday was a missed oppourtunity to get Leinart in, and to give our team a chance. It is not like the Cardinals were able to pass vertically, as it has been said 100 times, they dinked and dunked all day long, which Leinart can do.

"Am I wrong ?" - W. Sobcheck

I think your memory is a bit off. In the game you're alluding to, the 32 point comeback win in the playoffs, Reich started the game. Kelly was hurt the prior game. Reich himself says he was largely responsible for the Bills being so far behind, but then he got hot at just the right time. Combine that with the fact they were playing a run and shoot team that made no effort to run clock and you had the perfect storm and a 38-35 comeback win.

But again, Reich started that game, he had all the reps as the starter all week leading up to that game. And Reich never threw even 100 passes in a season as a Bill player. That essentially happened once, not several times.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

That essentially happened once, not several times.

Not it was not that exact comback, but Riech played well when he had to step in for Kelly at other times too.

My point was down 21 the best chance we had to get back in the game was spread the field and pass the ball, and that's Warner's game not Leinart's..

Sorry, I disagree with that. The Panthers were not going to let us stretch the field vertically, and there was a whole half to get back in the game. Again, Warner has proved in the past when he is off, he is off, and that is all there is to it.

Leinart could have easily dinked, and dunked yesterday, would have been better at moving around in the pocket to generate extra time, and has better ball security than Warner (at least IMO).

But the best chance we had to rally yesterday was to essentially do what we did against the Jets last year.

Again, we lost that game. There was no comeback.

You're talking about a guy who's barely played recently and isn't getting many reps in practice, throw him in the game and ask him to throw 25-30 times in the 2nd half. Just not likely to work out.

Agreed. But Warner wasn't going to do anything more than turn the ball over anyway. But you have a point that Leinart was probably ill-prepared, which again I then blame the coaching and the utter lack in confidence in Leinart.....thus why not trade him in the offseason.

Are we really going to pay Lienart that huge amount next year if Warner is still around......I doubt it.

So while in theory yesterday would have been a good chance to see Matt play, in reality it would have cause a tidal wave of disharmony for a team that is still very much the favorite to win this division.

The situation with playing time concerning Kurt Warner and Matt Leinart has never cause waves amongst the team in the past, why would it have done so yesterday.

What about playing the best guys, and allowing for competition ?

As for the division ? I dunno. We may win the division by default based on the injuries to the Niners yesterday.

But this team is VERY VERY flukey, and inconsistent. You just never know with the Cardinals. The "easy" part of this schedule looks a lot harder now. The Bears, the Titans, and with this current team even the Rams could smack us around if we continue to have days like this one.

As for myself being frustrated ? Damn right. This team is like watching Neil Rackers kick two years ago, and I am at the point where even if the Cardinals win a game I will not enjoy it because I will think it was a fluke and they will lose next week anyway.

We can talk about play calls, personel, pass rushes, running the ball, etc., etc.

This team lacks character and resiliency. It lacks leadership, and professionalism.

Sure, everyone wants a piece of the action when things are going good, but they all are looking to someone else to make a play when the chips are down.

 

[Pariah]

Are we really going to pay Lienart that huge amount next year if Warner is still around......I doubt it.

We're in luck; next year is probably uncapped so we don't have to worry about numbers from that standpoint.

 

[Russ Smith]

Not it was not that exact comback, but Riech played well when he had to step in for Kelly at other times too.



Sorry, I disagree with that. The Panthers were not going to let us stretch the field vertically, and there was a whole half to get back in the game. Again, Warner has proved in the past when he is off, he is off, and that is all there is to it.

Leinart could have easily dinked, and dunked yesterday, would have been better at moving around in the pocket to generate extra time, and has better ball security than Warner (at least IMO).




Again, we lost that game. There was no comeback.



.

We were down 34-0 at the half and we scored 35 in the 2nd half and actually got to within 13 points with 5 minutes left. not all comebacks have to be wins.

I agree that Kurt does bunch his turnovers, but he also tends to get really hot and get on rolls when he's doing what he wants to do, passing on every down.

You confused me with others, I didn't say throw the ball DOWNFIELD, I said all over the field. They were not giving us the deep stuff and we don't have anybody with speed to take it. But the underneath stuff was there. I agree Matt can throw that stuff too, but he's not getting reps during the week, there's only so much you can ask of a guy. Maybe he plays really well.

I also was surprised we werent' no huddle the entire 2nd half, I get the feeling Whiz is trying to keep some control, doesn't want to totally turn Kurt loose because he's not sure he trusts him this year. he's not the same guy he was last year, whether it's the hip, the wr injuries, both I don't know but he's not as good this year.

I just don't buy the problem is we lost Haley and Whiz is calling plays, the offense was healthier last year so we made more big plays. It's not by design we can't get them this year.

 

[moklerman]

I think the Cardinals panicked. Yes, they were down 21-0 early for a wide variety of reasons but that's the point...it was EARLY. They abandoned the gameplan way too early and put Warner into the worst possible situation on Warner's worst possible day.

Down 21 a team has some work to do to catch up, right? That's just 1 TD per quarter to tie the game. There was no need to abandon the running game like they did. They just played right into Carolina's defense. "Man under, cover 2" is what they played most of the day and with hobbled WR's there really isn't a way to beat it. Add to that the outside rushers were dominating the Cardinals' tackles and the interior defense was laying up, covering outlet receivers or tipping passes. Which was compounded by the Cardinals running plays that all collapsed inward. Urban and Fitz running quick in-routes was exactly the wrong play to call. In basketball terms, they were clogging the lane.

 

[Sunburn]

Kurt is now second in the league in interceptions with 11, and he's third in turnovers with 13, one behind Jamarcus Russell. The play calling hasn't been optimal, but it's far from the only source of Kurt's problems.

Kurt throws many more passes

 

[Russ Smith]

I think the Cardinals panicked. Yes, they were down 21-0 early for a wide variety of reasons but that's the point...it was EARLY. They abandoned the gameplan way too early and put Warner into the worst possible situation on Warner's worst possible day.

Down 21 a team has some work to do to catch up, right? That's just 1 TD per quarter to tie the game. There was no need to abandon the running game like they did. They just played right into Carolina's defense. "Man under, cover 2" is what they played most of the day and with hobbled WR's there really isn't a way to beat it. Add to that the outside rushers were dominating the Cardinals' tackles and the interior defense was laying up, covering outlet receivers or tipping passes. Which was compounded by the Cardinals running plays that all collapsed inward. Urban and Fitz running quick in-routes was exactly the wrong play to call. In basketball terms, they were clogging the lane.

IT was 21-7, first play of the drive was the pass to Beanie for a picksix. So you're saying asking Kurt to throw that pass on first down is putting him in the worst possible situation?

He then threw 2 more picks the next 2 drives. I could agree that at that point we were throwing every down but the picksix created that.

 

[Cardiac]

What people who are calling for Matt in yesterdays game are failing to recognize is that it is not as black or white as "Kurt doesn't have it today lets see what Matt has got".

Changing your QB is a BIG deal in the NFL. Especially with the egos we have in place on this team. It's not like bringing in the back up OL.

If Wiz is to go to Matt yesterday and he had a couple good drives what do you think the talk would be centered around this week? The QB controversy. As a team that is 4-3 and still in a very good spot in the division you can't do that as a HC. You have to be responsible when going to Matt, because when you do, it will likely be for good. I don't think Wiz is ready to do that and neither am I.

I was caught up in the emotion of yesterday (see post #2) but Wiz absolutely did the right thing keeping Kurt in the game. He just would have muddied the waters by going to Matt and had Kurt questioning the coaching staff and the commitment to him.

Matt's time will come. But it wasn't yesterday. And that doesn't say ANYTHING about their faith in Matt.

Rather it speaks to Whisenhunt understanding of the big picture and not making moves based on emotion.

So while in theory yesterday would have been a good chance to see Matt play, in reality it would have cause a tidal wave of disharmony for a team that is still very much the favorite to win this division.

Thanks for saving me the time and brain cells it would have taken me to type that up.

 

[Dayman]

Kurt throws many more passes

Not enough to justify 13 turnovers in 7 games.

 

[Perfectionist]

No one has mentioned the one postive of Kurts play yesterday. He did contribute to the, there will be a ST/D TD or Safety, payout.

 

[Chopper0080]

Moklerman

"here was no need to abandon the running game like they did. They just played right into Carolina's defense."

This is a false statement. Down 28 - 7 to start the 3rd quarter, the Cardinals proceeded to run the ball 8 times and throw the ball 9 times. That is more balance that we have had all year. The coaches did what they could to keep to the game plan especially with our defense pitching a shutout through the entire 3rd quarter. It wasn't until Warner threw the interception to Urban in the 4th quarter making it a 3 score game that we started throwing the ball willy nilly.

 

[Russ Smith]

Not enough to justify 13 turnovers in 7 games.

Yeah but 6 of those were yesterday, the other 6 games just 7 TO's which is very manageable.

If he makes a habit of it I agree, hopefully yesterday was just one of those bad Warner days.

Hopefully next week Whiz will stop calling plays intended to be interceptions.

(not directed at you dayman).

 

[green machine]

I think the Cardinals panicked. Yes, they were down 21-0 early for a wide variety of reasons but that's the point...it was EARLY. They abandoned the gameplan way too early and put Warner into the worst possible situation on Warner's worst possible day.

Down 21 a team has some work to do to catch up, right? That's just 1 TD per quarter to tie the game. There was no need to abandon the running game like they did. They just played right into Carolina's defense. "Man under, cover 2" is what they played most of the day and with hobbled WR's there really isn't a way to beat it. Add to that the outside rushers were dominating the Cardinals' tackles and the interior defense was laying up, covering outlet receivers or tipping passes. Which was compounded by the Cardinals running plays that all collapsed inward. Urban and Fitz running quick in-routes was exactly the wrong play to call. In basketball terms, they were clogging the lane.

It was never 21-0.

Kurt sucked yesterday, but I have no problem with him finishing the game. Bringing in Leinart with the same game plan isn't exactly the best spot for him either, given that he doesn't get the chance to work with a fresh slate in the game.

 

[Chopper0080]

"Hopefully next week Whiz will stop calling plays intended to be interceptions."

ZING!



(HAHAHAHAHA. I agree Russ)

 

[Covert Rain]

Yeah but 6 of those were yesterday, the other 6 games just 7 TO's which is very manageable.

If he makes a habit of it I agree, hopefully yesterday was just one of those bad Warner days.

Hopefully next week Whiz will stop calling plays intended to be interceptions.

(not directed at you dayman).

No doubt Kurt played bad. That's a fact. However, I felt the play calling was predictable. I thought the Panthers DB's had no problems figuring out where our receivers were going and had no problems covering them.

Kurt threw a ton of check downs because we had nobody open. That is an indication that the play calling was not fooling the Carolina DB's. Also, I did not see the typical hooks, out plays, quick slants etc.... that were a staple last year.

Kurt was a huge part of that loss but giving Whiz a pass on the play calling is ridiculous. His play calling has been suspect all season long and this game was no exception.

 

[Doug]

I love how chopper above writes how he threw the interception to Urban.Now thats funny.

It hit his chest and had both arms around it but its Warners fault.I'm in full agreeance with anyone who thinks like that.Warner can't run down field and catch it for them.What more can he do?

The defense put us in the hole.We then score.Defense lets them score again with ease.We fail to finish the next long 8-10 play drive and really the game is over.

We had to DECOY wide recievers playing in the game yesterday and neither one of them helped Fitzgerald get open.They wanted to get Fitz on the side where the top CB was'nt but we could'nt get that done.He's the one who hit Urban and knocked the ball out of his grasp for Kurts interception he threw.

You never even see some posters till we have a really bad game.We had 3 of those last year.We survived.Its the injuries thats got me worried this year.Plus the HEART

 

[Dayman]

Yeah but 6 of those were yesterday, the other 6 games just 7 TO's which is very manageable.

If he makes a habit of it I agree, hopefully yesterday was just one of those bad Warner days.

Hopefully next week Whiz will stop calling plays intended to be interceptions.

(not directed at you dayman).

I hope yesterday was simply one of those bad Warner days, too, but his play over the last 3.5 games (half of the season) is on the verge of turning into a disturbing trend.

85/138 786 yards 5 TD 7 INT 2 FL 68.08 rating

Six of the nine TO's happening yesterday skews the stats a bit, but those brilliant games that used to balance out the duds are occurring less frequently. He's only three picks away from equaling last year's total. He also has accounted for more touchdowns than turnovers in two out of seven games this year, compared to five times in the first seven games last year. Hopefully, his struggles aren't habitual, but I'm definitely worried.

 

[Doug]

I hope yesterday was simply one of those bad Warner days, too, but his play over the last 3.5 games (half of the season) is on the verge of turning into a disturbing trend.

85/138 786 yards 5 TD 7 INT 2 FL 68.08 rating

Six of the nine TO's happening yesterday skews the stats a bit, but those brilliant games that used to balance out the duds are occurring less frequently. He's only three picks away from equaling last year's total. He also has accounted for more touchdowns than turnovers in two out of seven games this year, compared to five times in the first seven games last year. Hopefully, his struggles aren't habitual, but I'm definitely worried.

It does'nt look like Whiz can call the plays that Haley could come up with that can get him out of it with two 1000 yard wide recievers that are so banged up they need to sit out a couple months to heal.At least.

 

[conraddobler]

I said we'd have days like this, and other days will be great, all depends a great deal on how we stack up against an opponent.

Some will be able to cause Kurt to have a bad day and generally those teams will win, the problem is the older Kurt gets and the more teams have a chance to see how our version of a Kurt led offense works the more days like these we'll have.

I expect this team to be Sybil, totally depending on the other teams horsepower to stop what we do.

 

[Dayman]

It does'nt look like Whiz can call the plays that Haley could come up with that can get him out of it with two 1000 yard wide recievers that are so banged up they need to sit out a couple months to heal.At least.

Play calling and injuries are definitely a factor. Boldin is a shell of himself out there.