One More Move

[slinslin]

It's now becoming clearer the Suns really miss Amundson coming off the bench. Let's face it, the Suns bringing in Warrick, Childress and Turkoglu were blunders. The Suns have somewhat solved the Turkoglu mistake but at the cost of JRich. If the Suns are not going to bring in a quality PF, they could still improve the current Suns by bringing in a pass first PG that is consistent. Dragic is only good when he is running wild and free much like Barbosa. Neither are PGs.

I think it is becoming clear that the Suns miss the 27 points 10 rebounds 2-3 assists 2 blocks 1 steal and many fouls that Amare Stoudemire draws for the Knicks.

It's hard to swallow that while watching this uninspiring old no defense team with no young talent worthy to mention.

 

[Trifecta]

I think it is becoming clear that the Suns miss the 27 points 10 rebounds 2-3 assists 2 blocks 1 steal and many fouls that Amare Stoudemire draws for the Knicks.

It's hard to swallow that while watching this uninspiring old no defense team with no young talent worthy to mention.

It's only becoming clear to you now that we miss Amare?

And strictly speaking Amare never averaged those stats in Phoenix so how can we miss something we never had?

 

[BC867]

It's only becoming clear to you now that we miss Amare?

And strictly speaking Amare never averaged those stats in Phoenix so how can we miss something we never had?

And might not have had for too long, considering his legs and eye. That's primarily why he was not signed long term.

 

[slinslin]

It's only becoming clear to you now that we miss Amare?

And strictly speaking Amare never averaged those stats in Phoenix so how can we miss something we never had?

He did in 2004/2005 and generally in the playoffs.

 

[sunsfan88]

Posted this in the trade thread...

Please no trade of Gortat for someone like Smith until we see how he does in the Suns system. Same with Lopez. Let's see what having a full 40+ minutes of athletic, defensive-minded true centers does for the team before getting rid of one of them, esp for Smith or Jason Thompson.

For Kevin Love? Sure, ship one of them now. Love appears to be a real-deal franchise player. Al Horford? Same thing. Do a trade yesterday. For Josh Smith? Meh not so sure - give it some time.

Vince Carter, Warrick and a pick or two for Smith in some kind of 3-way trade? No problem.

Badly needed centers who can defend and actually play in our system? Bigger assets that need a bigger return.

Agreed.

And there was a supoosedly a lot of teams calling for Gortat after we acquired him but Babby said hell no. I heard the Rockets even offered Brooks for him.

Gortat has to have something if all these teams want him.

And to everyone that keeps bringing up these Kevin Love rumors; Minnesota wouldnt trade him to us if we said they can have WHATEVER they want. I doubt they would give him ul if LA offered Kobe Bryant for him.

Love is a superstar player at a very young age. Him & Griffin are two of the BIG time players who will not get traded because their just too good.

 

[Errntknght]

The problem with Dragic, is that there is no second unit to speak of. Gentry came right out and said he did not think having a set second unit like last year was a good idea. I have no idea why he'd believe that, and he gave no logic behind it. Almost from the first games it seemed clear to me that is was a serious mistake on his part - and I said as much numerous times. (All I got in here was a chorus of 'you blame the coach for everything'.)

Its true I don't blame the players - they are what they are and its the coaches job to make the best of them. It would be like blaming the chess pieces instead of mind orchestrating them.

I was and am mostly concerned about the defense of the second unit - them succeeding, as they did last year, with solid defense seemed like the best way to begin changing the 'culture' of this team to the point of a balance between offense and defense.

We essentially lost Lou and Barbs and returned Dragic, Dudley and Frye from last year. Pretty obviously letting Lou go was a dumb move, though some thought Warrick was a better player. I had no use for him on the second unit because he's was known as a poor defender & rebounder, besides clearly being too small to play PF. Teamed with Frye the frontcourt would be far too weak defensively. Gani Lawal looked like the obvious answer at PF - and still does to me, inexperience and all. Sure he'd make many rookie blunders but he'd almost certainly bust his butt to hold up his end on defense - and he has the needed size and strength. Childress in place of Barbosa would a significant improvement defensively so once the unit got used to playing with each other they should be close to as good as last years unit, perhaps better by the end of season, depending on how Gani progressed.

Last year I gave Gentry credit for putting together the second unit so I feel fully justified in giving him a load of crap for botching it up this year. What he's doing now makes me believe it was plain dumb luck last year and nothing to do with a conscious plan on his part. I suspected that during the summer when he did not fight tooth and nail to keep Amundson - as far as we know, at least, he didn't push hard for Lou to return. Of course the FO tries to maintain the fiction of a unified front but usually, signs of disagreement leak out and I saw none.

Its not that I thought Amundson was such a great player, but as the linchpin of the second unit he was of great value to the team - and a few people seem to be in agreement of late.

 

[Trifecta]

He did in 2004/2005 and generally in the playoffs.

He averaged 26, 8.9, 1.5, 1.5 and 1 in 04/05, so not quite. And he certainly wasn't putting up those numbers last playoffs by a long shot (or in any playoffs since '07ish).

 

[Trifecta]

The problem with Dragic, is that there is no second unit to speak of. Gentry came right out and said he did not think having a set second unit like last year was a good idea. I have no idea why he'd believe that, and he gave no logic behind it. Almost from the first games it seemed clear to me that is was a serious mistake on his part - and I said as much numerous times. (All I got in here was a chorus of 'you blame the coach for everything'.)

Its true I don't blame the players - they are what they are and its the coaches job to make the best of them. It would be like blaming the chess pieces instead of mind orchestrating them.

IMO the reason Gentry said having a set 2nd unit wasn't a good idea this season was because:

(a) he had to find minutes for everyone even though we had too many wings - and if he was going to drop anyone out of the rotation it would have logically had to have been either Hedo or Childress, who had both just been brought in with massive, long term deals in the offseason, so he most likely felt compelled to play them and hope for the best (time will tell how this improves now that Hedo is gone)
(b) as you said yourself, we lost Lou in the offseason so without him (and Barbs) to anchor the 2nd unit it was no where near the same as last season - he went away from sticking with the set unit because it proved inferior to last season's 2nd unit, and instead went with players based on matchups etc.

It's not like he has the same or similar unit this season and just went "screw this, let's just randomise everything and mess with the chemistry of the 2nd unit" as you seem to imply. I can see the reasoning behind it.

 

[Errntknght]

IMO the reason Gentry said having a set 2nd unit wasn't a good idea this season was because:

(a) he had to find minutes for everyone even though we had too many wings - and if he was going to drop anyone out of the rotation it would have logically had to have been either Hedo or Childress, who had both just been brought in with massive, long term deals in the offseason, so he most likely felt compelled to play them and hope for the best (time will tell how this improves now that Hedo is gone)
(b) as you said yourself, we lost Lou in the offseason so without him (and Barbs) to anchor the 2nd unit it was no where near the same as last season - he went away from sticking with the set unit because it proved inferior to last season's 2nd unit, and instead went with players based on matchups etc.

It's not like he has the same or similar unit this season and just went "screw this, let's just randomise everything and mess with the chemistry of the 2nd unit" as you seem to imply. I can see the reasoning behind it.

Its true that the FO saddled Gentry with a very ill-conceived conglomeration of players and I predicted in the summer that if anything were going to cause the demise of the second unit, it would be Alvin trying to fit them all in.

You cannot argue that the second unit this year was inferior to last year's because there has been no second unit this year - just a bunch of individual subs. It certainly didn't come as any surprise to me that used this way that they were much inferior.

Barbs was in no way an 'anchor' for the 2nd unit - losing him was a blessing. Childress is a far better defender and given the way Barbs played last year not a big drop off on offense - at approximately the same salary, contrary to what you claim.

Now, I'd never think that Gentry was intentionally messing with the chemistry of the 2nd unit - but its just as disheartening that he doesn't see the value of it. Losing Lou was a blow but he didn't even try to sustain it and build on it. Watching that unit come together and seeing them defending well was one of the most hopeful things I've ever seen on the Suns in forty-some years.

Its not like Gentry came up with some new plan for the team that improved on last years plan. He's been bumbling along with no plan at all - and its hard to argue that the team hasn't looked like that whatever one might imagine Alvin has been trying to do.

The obvious choice for the second unit at the beginning of the year would have been Dragic, Dudley, Childress, Frye and a replacement for Lou. The primary contenders for his spot would be Lawal and Clark - big enough to play PF, young enough and not proven to be poor defenders. Let them practice together and play together - and assign the best defensive asst coach to run them. (The problem this creates for the team as a whole is PF on the first unit but using some mix of Hedo and Warrick couldn't be any worse than what transpired.)

There are some benefits to the plan aside from having a worthwhile second unit. It is no longer tied to an offensive strategy designed around Nash - imagine that, preparing for the future. Nor is it tied to a defensive scheme that caters to covering for weak individual defenders. Why, its almost too good to be true!

 

[Ronin]

Did I miss something? when did Amare average 10+ rebounds for a season?

 

[Trifecta]

Its not like Gentry came up with some new plan for the team that improved on last years plan. He's been bumbling along with no plan at all - and its hard to argue that the team hasn't looked like that whatever one might imagine Alvin has been trying to do.

The obvious choice for the second unit at the beginning of the year would have been Dragic, Dudley, Childress, Frye and a replacement for Lou. The primary contenders for his spot would be Lawal and Clark - big enough to play PF, young enough and not proven to be poor defenders. Let them practice together and play together - and assign the best defensive asst coach to run them. (The problem this creates for the team as a whole is PF on the first unit but using some mix of Hedo and Warrick couldn't be any worse than what transpired.)

There are some benefits to the plan aside from having a worthwhile second unit. It is no longer tied to an offensive strategy designed around Nash - imagine that, preparing for the future. Nor is it tied to a defensive scheme that caters to covering for weak individual defenders. Why, its almost too good to be true!

I guess he just decided, for better or worse, that Lawal and Clark weren't capable of filling the Lou role and never would be.

Also he had to find minutes for Warrick, yet another superflous offseason aquisition, and backup PF was the only vacancy with all the wing spots more than covered already. Which is why I'm guessing we decided not to bring Lou back (which was a stupid decision obviously as he was dirt cheap). My guess is the Suns brain trust (including Gentry) were saying "oh whoops, where are we going to play our new guy Warrick if we bring Lou back?"

The filling of our PF positions, starter and backup, has been our major downfall this season no doubt about it. Gentry certainly hasn't managed it that well, but he isn't the one who brought all these ill fitting pieces in. He was thus forced into either benching one of the new guys or trying to keep them all happy.