OT: NBA Finals: Cavs v. Warriors

[GatorAZ]

That jump ball was atrocious. Seriously why is the ref watching the ball and not the players?

 

[Russ Smith]

The whole Cavs team isn't being hurt by the refs. Especially early in the game.

The Cavs have been setting the physical tone and the and the Warriors don't know how to foul without getting called. Some of the boxing out fouls were ridiculous.

Van Gundy said if you face guard to block otu they will call the foul on you everytime. I don't think that's actually a rule but it's clearly how the refs are calling it.

Also, were there bad or missed calls against the Cavs sure. But there were 2 HUGE calls that hurt the Warriors nobody wants to talk about.

First quarter Warriors lead 11-9, Klay has 9 of those 11, they call a foul on Klay against Shumpert on the drive he makes both FT's tie game, 2nd foul on Klay he sits the last 7 minutes of the half. The replays were completely 100% clear there was no contact at all, all the announcers agreed, including the halftime crew. What made it even worse is if they had not called the foul on Klay, there was a clear over the back on Cleveland on the rebound. So that foul gave them 2 points and took the hottest player in the game off the court.

He wound up with 34, how might that first half had gone differently if they don't blow that call?

4th quarter Cleveland up 2, LeBron drives misses a floater over Bogut, rebound is a complete loose ball, LeBron and Thompson collide they call the foul on Klay. LeBron then hits a stepback 3 to make it a 5 point lead. The Warriors were going bananas on that call and VanGundy wasn't sure why until they showed the replay, after LeBron missed, wtih 2 hands he shoved bogut in the back under the basket and out of bounds, and then went and collides with Klay. It's a loose ball, both guys have equal right to the ball and again, LeBron had just blatantly fouled Bogut. That was a huge play, they got 3 points out of it, instead of the Warriors ball down 2 chance to tie or take the lead, they're down 5, that's the point in the game where Cleveland extended the lead. Again HUGE call in the game and absolutely a bad call, the most obvious foul on that play was LeBron's push.

But nobody talks about those because they're not late in the game or a foul when LeBron is shooting. Those 2 calls completely changed the momentum of the game at the time.

 

[elindholm]

But nobody talks about those because they're not late in the game or a foul when LeBron is shooting. Those 2 calls completely changed the momentum of the game at the time.

This is why I hate clichés like "The best team always wins a seven-game series" or "Team X won because they deserved to." So much is influenced by the officials, and in very close games, a few calls here or there can make the difference. Fans of winning teams really should stop being so smug about their "superiority," but I guess that's no more likely to change than the quality of the officiating itself.

 

[Brian in Mesa]

One of the worst calls of the night (IMHO) was waving off Shaun Livingston's putback dunk as offensive interference. The ball was clearly outside of the cylinder when he grabbed it and slammed it home.

http://cdn2.streamable.com/video/c05709a00d8111e5a428d55c820ad9eb.webm

 

[Cheesebeef]

Van Gundy said if you face guard to block otu they will call the foul on you everytime. I don't think that's actually a rule but it's clearly how the refs are calling it.

Also, were there bad or missed calls against the Cavs sure. But there were 2 HUGE calls that hurt the Warriors nobody wants to talk about.

First quarter Warriors lead 11-9, Klay has 9 of those 11, they call a foul on Klay against Shumpert on the drive he makes both FT's tie game, 2nd foul on Klay he sits the last 7 minutes of the half. The replays were completely 100% clear there was no contact at all, all the announcers agreed, including the halftime crew. What made it even worse is if they had not called the foul on Klay, there was a clear over the back on Cleveland on the rebound. So that foul gave them 2 points and took the hottest player in the game off the court.

He wound up with 34, how might that first half had gone differently if they don't blow that call?

4th quarter Cleveland up 2, LeBron drives misses a floater over Bogut, rebound is a complete loose ball, LeBron and Thompson collide they call the foul on Klay. LeBron then hits a stepback 3 to make it a 5 point lead. The Warriors were going bananas on that call and VanGundy wasn't sure why until they showed the replay, after LeBron missed, wtih 2 hands he shoved bogut in the back under the basket and out of bounds, and then went and collides with Klay. It's a loose ball, both guys have equal right to the ball and again, LeBron had just blatantly fouled Bogut. That was a huge play, they got 3 points out of it, instead of the Warriors ball down 2 chance to tie or take the lead, they're down 5, that's the point in the game where Cleveland extended the lead. Again HUGE call in the game and absolutely a bad call, the most obvious foul on that play was LeBron's push.

But nobody talks about those because they're not late in the game or a foul when LeBron is shooting. Those 2 calls completely changed the momentum of the game at the time.

Oh my lord... Are you REALLY this basketball fan? I would have never taken you for a complete ref baby based on your level headedness on the Cards board.

 

[Russ Smith]

One of the worst calls of the night (IMHO) was waving off Shaun Livingston's putback dunk as offensive interference. The ball was clearly outside of the cylinder when he grabbed it and slammed it home.

http://cdn2.streamable.com/video/c05709a00d8111e5a428d55c820ad9eb.webm

The funny thing is when I saw that live I thought it was the right call, it was the angle.

It was very similar to the call that gave UCLA the win over SMU, watching live it looked like a horrible call, only on the right angle can you tell why they called it. Live it looked like the ball was in the cylinder, only on the right angle replay does it look like a legit play by Livingston

 

[Brian in Mesa]

Oh my lord... Are you REALLY this basketball fan? I would have never taken you for a complete ref baby based on your level headedness on the Cards board.

 

[Russ Smith]

Oh my lord... Are you REALLY this basketball fan? I would have never taken you for a complete ref baby based on your level headedness on the Cards board.

So it's ok for you to say the Warriors are getting the benefit but when I point out clear examples where the refs turned the game in Cleveland's favor I'm being a baby?

Just to be clear, do you think the foul on Thompson was a good call? Do you think LeBron pushing Bogut after that miss was a foul?

The point is fans fixate on calls late in games, they consider them to be more important. That's why everyone remembers the last shot by LeBron, the jump ball, the foul on Iggy where LeBron walked first and they called neither the walk nor the foul(but most only talk about the foul).

The fact is that game could have been entirely different if they didn't call that phantom foul on Klay Thompson, or if they call the foul on LeBron instead of letting him push Bogut so he can go get a rebound that ultimately led to them getting 3 points.

In game 1 LeBron got a quick foul and then twice in a 2 minute span got away with an obvious foul that had all the announcers saying he needed to be careful he didn't get his 2nd foul in the first quarter. Thompson in game 2 didn't even touch the guy but has to sit over 7 minutes of game time because the ref anticipated he'd foul in transition. There's a lot of luck involved in basketball with the refs.

 

[Chaz]

I am not a fan of either team but in both games there were a lot of fouls early on one side of the court.

I don't care how they call it as long as it is consistent.

 

[Russ Smith]

I am not a fan of either team but in both games there were a lot of fouls early on one side of the court.

I don't care how they call it as long as it is consistent.

I still believe the Warriors win the series. If they don't win it I think it will be because LeBron is the best player on the planet and having a remarkable series.

I think suggesting the Cavs are doing this despite preferential treatment by the refs favoring the Warriors is patently false.

 

[Absolute Zero]

Tonight's game is the key to the series. We'll see if the Warriors are ready for prime time.

It will also be interesting to see how the refs will call the game and how they will set the tone early.

 

[Cheesebeef]

So it's ok for you to say the Warriors are getting the benefit but when I point out clear examples where the refs turned the game in Cleveland's favor I'm being a baby?

I'm an objective observer with no dog in the fight, Russ... as opposed to you who seems completely blind to what's going on. I mean... you were even complaining about the out of bounds call at the end of the game that CLEARLY was off GS.

Bottom line, there's calls that are missed both ways all game long, but when push comes to shove at the end of these games, being someone who doesn't care who wins or loses, I'm seeing the Warriors get A LOT calls down the stretch that are complete head scratchers... and so is most of the rest of the country.

 

[Russ Smith]

I'm an objective observer with no dog in the fight, Russ... as opposed to you who seems completely blind to what's going on. I mean... you were even complaining about the out of bounds call at the end of the game that CLEARLY was off GS.

Bottom line, there's calls that are missed both ways all game long, but when push comes to shove at the end of these games, being someone who doesn't care who wins or loses, I'm seeing the Warriors get A LOT calls down the stretch that are complete head scratchers... and so is most of the rest of the country.

See that's part of the issue Cheese, you aren't actually reading my posts completely. I already admitted twice that I didn't see the out of bounds play live. I never said it was a bad call I said I was "confused" by the call because on the replay the ball was clearly touching LeBron last, I even asked did I miss somethign did someone else touch the ball after him. I didn't say it was a bad call, I said I didn't see it and what they were showing on replay, the block and the ball then coming off LeBron, made it appear the ball was going out off him. Now that I've seen the full play it was clearly Iggy trying to save the ball to Curry and it went out off him. The replays they were showing that night did NOT show that end of the play. I admitted at the time I hadn't seen it live, you can go back and look for yourself if you want to.

I also clearly posted the next day I'd now seen what Green did on the jump ball and I agreed it should have been a violation and I asked, can they actually call a foul on a jump ball since I don't think I've ever seen one. Watching it live I was watchign the right hand, like the ref did, because that's the hand he was going for the ball with, I didn't see the left hand on LeBron's shoulder pulling himself up and holding LeBron down. Obviously a violation, one I'm sure the refs will look for now since he's done it twice.

I'm not blind at all, I've admitted repeatedly the Warriors got some calls at the end of game 2.

I've also very clearly pointed out that had calls gone different earlier in game 2, or game 1, the games might not have been that close.

The plays all along during the game matter too.

 

[Cheesebeef]

See that's part of the issue Cheese, you aren't actually reading my posts completely. I already admitted twice that I didn't see the out of bounds play live. I never said it was a bad call I said I was "confused" by the call because on the replay the ball was clearly touching LeBron last, I even asked did I miss somethign did someone else touch the ball after him. I didn't say it was a bad call, I said I didn't see it and what they were showing on replay, the block and the ball then coming off LeBron, made it appear the ball was going out off him. Now that I've seen the full play it was clearly Iggy trying to save the ball to Curry and it went out off him. The replays they were showing that night did NOT show that end of the play. I admitted at the time I hadn't seen it live, you can go back and look for yourself if you want to.

I also clearly posted the next day I'd now seen what Green did on the jump ball and I agreed it should have been a violation and I asked, can they actually call a foul on a jump ball since I don't think I've ever seen one. Watching it live I was watchign the right hand, like the ref did, because that's the hand he was going for the ball with, I didn't see the left hand on LeBron's shoulder pulling himself up and holding LeBron down. Obviously a violation, one I'm sure the refs will look for now since he's done it twice.

I'm not blind at all, I've admitted repeatedly the Warriors got some calls at the end of game 2.

I've also very clearly pointed out that had calls gone different earlier in game 2, or game 1, the games might not have been that close.

The plays all along during the game matter too.

sure Russ... but you're falling into the trap of ONLY seeing the calls in the middle of the game that would have effected the WARRIORS when I KNOW there were dubious calls during the game that friends of mine who were Cav fans were screaming to the high heavens way before the final moments. I thought of them what I think of you right now... you're out of your gourd. ESPECIALLY if you think either of those games might not have "been close". The reality is, the officiating has been spotty all around and the Warriors are LUCKY at this point to have come out of Oakland with a split because the Cavs were in control of both games pretty much the entire time... which has been shocking to me.

Bottom line... complaining about the refs is beyond weak sauce IMO, especially when you're getting the benefit of those calls in this most high pressured moments.

 

[Russ Smith]

sure Russ... but you're falling into the trap of ONLY seeing the calls in the middle of the game that would have effected the WARRIORS when I KNOW there were dubious calls during the game that friends of mine who were Cav fans were screaming to the high heavens way before the final moments. I thought of them what I think of you right now... you're out of your gourd. ESPECIALLY if you think either of those games might not have "been close". The reality is, the officiating has been spotty all around and the Warriors are LUCKY at this point to have come out of Oakland with a split because the Cavs were in control of both games pretty much the entire time... which has been shocking to me.

Bottom line... complaining about the refs is beyond weak sauce IMO, especially when you're getting the benefit of those calls in this most high pressured moments.

I didn't say there weren't other dubious calls. You keep saying the Warriors are getting preferential treatment and getting the benefit of calls. Yet the Cavs have shot more FT's, Lebron has shot 28 by himself.

LeBron James is the entire Cleveland offense, if he had been on the bench with 2 fouls in the first quarter of game 1 there's no way that game gets to OT. He committed 3 clear fouls in that quarter and only got called for one of them.

If Klay doesn't sit for about 10 minutes in the first and 2nd quarter because of that 2nd foul, I highly doubt the Warriors go scoreless for nearly 5 minutes letting Cleveland take the lead. Until, Klay Thompson came back in and hit a 3 they had been outscored 10-0 over 5 minutes.

I absolutely agree I'm surprised Cleveland has been this good, it's the defense and LeBron's ridiculously good offense.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I didn't say there weren't other dubious calls. You keep saying the Warriors are getting preferential treatment and getting the benefit of calls.

at the END of the games.

Yet the Cavs have shot more FT's, Lebron has shot 28 by himself.

that's what happens when you live by the three and die by it. Jump shooting teams don't go to the line because they don't go to the hole... and that's LeBron's entire game. simple as that.

LeBron James is the entire Cleveland offense, if he had been on the bench with 2 fouls in the first quarter of game 1 there's no way that game gets to OT. He committed 3 clear fouls in that quarter and only got called for one of them.

If Klay doesn't sit for about 10 minutes in the first and 2nd quarter because of that 2nd foul, I highly doubt the Warriors go scoreless for nearly 5 minutes letting Cleveland take the lead. Until, Klay Thompson came back in and hit a 3 they had been outscored 10-0 over 5 minutes.

okay Russ... you're right. The Warriors should be up 2-0 and apparently that has nothing to do with Curry playing like absolute dog-crap.

 

[Absolute Zero]

Is there a pissing match smiley we can insert here somewhere?

LOL

Its all good fellas!

 

[Cheesebeef]

Is there a pissing match smiley we can insert here somewhere?

LOL

Its all good fellas!

i just can't stand for the life of me people who bash on the refs. we've got a couple suns fans who do it here and I let loose on them just like I have been with Russ.

 

[Brian in Mesa]

i just can't stand for the life of me people who bash on the refs. we've got a couple Suns fans who do it here and I let loose on them just like I have been with Russ.

A couple?




:maninground:

Thanks. I needed a good laugh today.

 

[Cheesebeef]

A couple?




:maninground:

Thanks. I needed a good laugh today.

there's two in particular who literally blame EVERY loss on the refs, but I didn't feel like calling them out by name.

on the cards board, it's like a billion... one of which IS NOT Russ, which is why I'm so surprised he's being that way here.

 

[Phrazbit]

LeBron has been the best player in the league for nearly a decade, but if he can drag the tattered remnants of the Cavs to a victory in this series it would be a huge vault up the list of best players all-time.

I might put him #2.

The biggest change to me is in his leadership. I don't think he was ever a bad leader but he was frequently passive, not communicating enough and brooding when things went south (the 2010 Boston series comes to mind). But this year he is seemingly coaching the team. I see him providing more instruction than Blatt, especially in regards to in-game adjustments. LeBron has always been able gauge the nuance of the game at a higher level than most, but knowing it for yourself and being able to get your teammates on the same page is difficult task.

 

[Russ Smith]

at the END of the games.



that's what happens when you live by the three and die by it. Jump shooting teams don't go to the line because they don't go to the hole... and that's LeBron's entire game. simple as that.



okay Russ... you're right. The Warriors should be up 2-0 and apparently that has nothing to do with Curry playing like absolute dog-crap.

Fair enough, your original post said everyone outside of the bay area can see the Warriors are getting preferential treatment all series. Since then you've qualified it to end of games so I have no disagreement, the Warriors get the better end of the calls at the end of game 2.

For the playoffs the Cavs are averaging about 5 FTA's more per game than the Warriors. After 2 games they have 12 more attempts so 6 more per game. Both teams are actually shooting MORE FT's in this series than they have on average in the playoffs. My point was if you're saying one team is getting preferential treatment, you'd expect it to show up in the FTA's, it's not.

The Warriors should be up 2-0, I get the argument Cleveland could easily be up 2, they could, so could the Warriors.

I agree Curry has not played well, Dellavedova has played very good defense on him, Green has not played well, Bogut has not played well, really the only Warriors to play well so far in the series have been Thompson, Barnes and Iguodala. I would have said Speights after game 1 but his missed dunk was huge in game 2. Despite all that, the Warriors got to OT in both games with LeBron having epic games in both of them.

If the Cavs can continue to hold the Warriors shooting down like that they have a chance to win, my gut tells me they can't.

 

[Russ Smith]

i just can't stand for the life of me people who bash on the refs. we've got a couple suns fans who do it here and I let loose on them just like I have been with Russ.

What I disagree with is you saying I'm bashing on the refs while you keep insisting they're favoring the Warriors. Do you not see the irony in that?

 

[Russ Smith]

LeBron has been the best player in the league for nearly a decade, but if he can drag the tattered remnants of the Cavs to a victory in this series it would be a huge vault up the list of best players all-time.

I might put him #2.

The biggest change to me is in his leadership. I don't think he was ever a bad leader but he was frequently passive, not communicating enough and brooding when things went south (the 2010 Boston series comes to mind). But this year he is seemingly coaching the team. I see him providing more instruction than Blatt, especially in regards to in-game adjustments. LeBron has always been able gauge the nuance of the game at a higher level than most, but knowing it for yourself and being able to get your teammates on the same page is difficult task.

What makes him so good now is that he is literally doing everything. If you double him he makes the right pass every time, hell he hit Tristan Thompson square in the chest with a pass in game 2 that stunned Thompson bounced off him for a TO. That was an incredible find, should have been a dunk.

so if you single cover him he gets inside, if you don't he picks you apart with passes. I actually think the Warriors should do to him what Cleveland is doing to Curry, if the Cavs give LeBron the ball in the backcourt double him. If he gets the ball 30 feet away, double him. Doubling him when he's posting doesn't work he kills you, make him give the ball up when he's nowhere near the basket. Even if he gets it back, at least you've taken 8-10 seconds off the clock.

He's also doing a phenomenal defensive job in this series.

 

[Cheesebeef]

What I disagree with is you saying I'm bashing on the refs while you keep insisting they're favoring the Warriors. Do you not see the irony in that?

there's no irony in that at all... again because I'M NOT A FAN OF EITHER TEAM. Objective observers commenting on the refs doesn't bother me. Fans of the teams playing that bitching about the refs when they have completely rose-colored glasses on is what bothers the hell out of me... because there's no objectivity to their claims for the most part... evidenced by your claim that the Warriors should be up 2-0 if not for the refs.