OT - Russell Wilson gets paid

[MadCardDisease]

Wilson can "will his team to a couple victories a year" with his play. He IS a key cog in that offense — his ability to run and make good decisions with the football is one of the reasons his offense is as efficient as it is. Marshawn Lynch became a more effective running back after Wilson became the starter. That running game can be effective despite starting spare parts because teams are worried about Wilson on the play-action.

Wilson is what people like Ron Jaworski was hoping Colin Kaepernick can become two years from now. There are more ways to take over a football game and will your team to victory than throwing for 400 yards.

Wilson's escapability is his biggest assett IMO. It's uncanny how he can make pash rushers whiff on a consistant basis. He keeps plays alive that in most cases should be a gimme sack. If you lose contain on him he will hurt you with his legs. He can make enough throws to keep defenses honest. The Seahawks offense is designed to play to these strengths which makes Wilson effective at what he does best.

 

[MadCardDisease]

No, I believe THIS is one of the most ignorant comments I'VE ever seen. He's presenting an opinion, K9, one differing from yours. That doesn't make him ignorant. Lighten up, Francis.

K9 was calling the comment ignorant not the poster. However his tone was very agressive towards the original poster.

K9 please try to keep your comments about football.

Thanks

 

[Stout]

Wilson can "will his team to a couple victories a year" with his play. He IS a key cog in that offense — his ability to run and make good decisions with the football is one of the reasons his offense is as efficient as it is. Marshawn Lynch became a more effective running back after Wilson became the starter. That running game can be effective despite starting spare parts because teams are worried about Wilson on the play-action.

Wilson is what people like Ron Jaworski was hoping Colin Kaepernick can become two years from now. There are more ways to take over a football game and will your team to victory than throwing for 400 yards.

See, this kind of cogent argument is good. I'm not in complete agreement, but I'm thinking the truth is in the middle somewhere.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

I agree that Wilson can make some plays out of nothing and can probably snatch a couple victories from defeat. Where I don't agree is that he is, to this point, the main focal point of the team winning or losing, ala Andrew Luck, Peyton Manning, and Aaron Rodgers.

Seattle would still probably be a playoff team, or right on the fringe, with another QB. Wilson fits and puts the team over the top. Where as you take Manning, Luck, or Rodgers off their respective teams and they're drafting in top 5.

 

[cardpa]

Wilson can "will his team to a couple victories a year" with his play. He IS a key cog in that offense — his ability to run and make good decisions with the football is one of the reasons his offense is as efficient as it is. Marshawn Lynch became a more effective running back after Wilson became the starter. That running game can be effective despite starting spare parts because teams are worried about Wilson on the play-action.

Wilson is what people like Ron Jaworski was hoping Colin Kaepernick can become two years from now. There are more ways to take over a football game and will your team to victory than throwing for 400 yards.

K9 maybe you should think about your responses before writing them. Your initial response was rude and unjustified. Here you actually add support to my post. You state Wilson could will his team to a couple of victories. Never has he had to carry the team over an extended period of time. He is no more an important cog than Lynch or a Oline that is exceptional at run blocking which sets up Lynch and Wilson to run and a defense that can take over games even if their offense is bogged down that day. A guy like Rodgers who hasn't had even an above average Oline or anything resembling a RB like Lynch or a defense like Seattle has can carry his team to wins. It's his ability to read defenses, change plays at the LOS and find the 3rd and 4th options that separates him from Wilson.

You love Wilson and that is all fine and dandy however there are other QBs out there that are the same or better than Wilson and opinions that do not line up with yours so at the very least show a modicum of respect for others opinions even when they don't agree with yours.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I agree that Wilson can make some plays out of nothing and can probably snatch a couple victories from defeat. Where I don't agree is that he is, to this point, the main focal point of the team winning or losing, ala Andrew Luck, Peyton Manning, and Aaron Rodgers.

Seattle would still probably be a playoff team, or right on the fringe, with another QB. Wilson fits and puts the team over the top. Where as you take Manning, Luck, or Rodgers off their respective teams and they're drafting in top 5.

+1

I think the Seahawks are still a playoff team with Tavaris Jackson as their QB. That's not an indictment on Wilson; he is the one who takes them over the hump.

But if you gave him a league average running game and a league average defense, I think the Seahawks are not even a playoff team. He is the elite complementary QB, but he's no Luck, Manning, or Rodgers.

Here is a great article on why Russell Wilson is not an elite QB from KC Joyner over at ESPN (if you have insider). He crunches the numbers and basically shows that Wilson is an average to below average passer and his rushing numbers don't quite bring him to elite status like everyone thinks.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/insider/story/_/id/13070224/why-russell-wilson-elite-qb-nfl

I think for me, the game that demonstrated the glaring deficiencies in Russell Wilson's game, was our win in Seattle back in 2013. Bowles dared Wilson to beat the Cardinals with his arm and Wilson deferred to his ground game and defense to win. Wilson is an elite scrambler, but his pocket passing ability is average at best.

 

[kerouac9]

+1

I think the Seahawks are still a playoff team with Tavaris Jackson as their QB. That's not an indictment on Wilson; he is the one who takes them over the hump.

But if you gave him a league average running game and a league average defense, I think the Seahawks are not even a playoff team. He is the elite complementary QB, but he's no Luck, Manning, or Rodgers.

Here is a great article on why Russell Wilson is not an elite QB from KC Joyner over at ESPN (if you have insider). He crunches the numbers and basically shows that Wilson is an average to below average passer and his rushing numbers don't quite bring him to elite status like everyone thinks.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/insider/story/_/id/13070224/why-russell-wilson-elite-qb-nfl

I think for me, the game that demonstrated the glaring deficiencies in Russell Wilson's game, was our win in Seattle back in 2013. Bowles dared Wilson to beat the Cardinals with his arm and Wilson deferred to his ground game and defense to win. Wilson is an elite scrambler, but his pocket passing ability is average at best.

Do you mean the game three games before he won the Super Bowl? It's worth remembering that Seattle and Wilson had the ball with 2' remaining and a freak interception ended that game when the ball bounced off a receiver's hands and Dansby came out of nowhere to scoop it up:

Arizona Cardinals linebacker Karlos Dansby's decisive interception - NFL Videos

Any statistical setup that shows that Wilson is a below average passer is a model that is probably broken. Wilson isn't as physically gifted as Rodgers and Luck, but he brings something different to the table, and both of those guys have had superior supporting weapons on offense, IMO.

 

[BurqueCardFan]

Do you mean the game three games before he won the Super Bowl? It's worth remembering that Seattle and Wilson had the ball with 2' remaining and a freak interception ended that game when the ball bounced off a receiver's hands and Dansby came out of nowhere to scoop it up:

Arizona Cardinals linebacker Karlos Dansby's decisive interception - NFL Videos

Any statistical setup that shows that Wilson is a below average passer is a model that is probably broken. Wilson isn't as physically gifted as Rodgers and Luck, but he brings something different to the table, and both of those guys have had superior supporting weapons on offense, IMO.

You're the biggest stat guy on this board but when they don't agree with your point of view, they must be "broken". That's funny.
If any of the top 15-20 QB's were put on Seattle, they would have still been a legitimate Superbowl team over the last couple of years because of the defense and running game. Nobody is saying Wilson is bad, he's just not as good as the hype makes him out to be.

 

[kerouac9]

You're the biggest stat guy on this board but when they don't agree with your point of view, they must be "broken". That's funny.
If any of the top 15-20 QB's were put on Seattle, they would have still been a legitimate Superbowl team over the last couple of years because of the defense and running game. Nobody is saying Wilson is bad, he's just not as good as the hype makes him out to be.

When there's an outlier model that suggests that Wilson is a BELOW-AVERAGE passer when almost every other metric suggests he's above average to elite (QBR - 71.75, 59.94, 62.45; Passer Rating - 100.0, 101.2, 95.0; DVOA - 15.0%, 13.1%, 5.0%)? Yes, that's probably a broken model.

It's fascinating that Krang has linked to that article three or four times now without excerpting anything that can support his or Joyner's point. Here's Bill Barnwell's take on Wilson from maybe a month ago:

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/tip-o-the-salary-cap-what-to-do-about-russell-wilson/

There’s no reason for Seattle to embrace that uncertainty. And if it does lose Wilson and come away with a middling quarterback, it probably isn’t going to be good enough to compete at the highest level. We have about one full season of data to look at as a measure of how this Seahawks team played when it combined a great defense and middling work at quarterback.

Seattle’s pass defense drastically improved during the 2011 campaign; it ranked 22nd in DVOA during weeks 1-9 before improving to second during weeks 10-17, and it hasn’t let up since. We can combine that with the first half of the 2012 campaign, during which Wilson struggled to find his mark within the Seattle offense and adjust to the pro game. Wilson was 13th in QBR during the first eight weeks of his rookie campaign; afterward, his 84.2 mark was second to Peyton Manning’s 84.8, with nobody else above 74.9.

That’s a full season with a dominant defense and inconsistent quarterback play. Over those 16 games, the Seahawks went 9-7. They did outscore their opposition by 75 points over that time frame, producing the Pythagorean expectation of a 10.3-win team, but that’s still a step down from what they’ve done since the light turned on for Wilson. In the 40 ensuing games, the Seahawks were 32-8, and they outscored their opposition by 195 points per 16 games, making them the Pythagorean equivalent of a 12.8-win team. They would be good with a mediocre quarterback. They’ve only been great with Wilson.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Do you mean the game three games before he won the Super Bowl? It's worth remembering that Seattle and Wilson had the ball with 2' remaining and a freak interception ended that game when the ball bounced off a receiver's hands and Dansby came out of nowhere to scoop it up:

Arizona Cardinals linebacker Karlos Dansby's decisive interception - NFL Videos

Any statistical setup that shows that Wilson is a below average passer is a model that is probably broken. Wilson isn't as physically gifted as Rodgers and Luck, but he brings something different to the table, and both of those guys have had superior supporting weapons on offense, IMO.

Quote from Joyner:

1. His Total QBR is comparable to that of a mid-level QB.

ESPN's Total QBR is a metric that takes rushing play production into account and is thus normally considered to be more favorable for mobile quarterbacks than passer rating, yet Wilson hasn't posted dominant numbers here. He ranked 13th in this category last season (62.4) and placed 13th here in 2013 (58.9).

NOTE: QBR includes Wilson's rushing, yet he is close to the league average

Unfortunately I'm at work right now (government computer) and can't access the full article, but it's a good read and has some pretty good stat and situational breakdown on how Russell Wilson is not a $20,000,000 QB.

And I don't see how mentioning that he won the Super Bowl is remotely relevant to the game he played against us in 2013.

BTW why you must you always be so snide in your remarks? I know we have had a history, but I'm not really in to internet arguments anymore. Debate the argument, not the person.

 

[kerouac9]

Quote from Joyner:

1. His Total QBR is comparable to that of a mid-level QB.

ESPN's Total QBR is a metric that takes rushing play production into account and is thus normally considered to be more favorable for mobile quarterbacks than passer rating, yet Wilson hasn't posted dominant numbers here. He ranked 13th in this category last season (62.4) and placed 13th here in 2013 (58.9).

NOTE: QBR includes Wilson's rushing, yet he is close to the league average

And I don't see how mentioning that he won the Super Bowl is remotely relevant to the game he played against us in 2013.

Didn't mean to sound snide; just having some fun with the argument. I have a ton of respect for you, which is why it's weird when you float information that you don't back up.

Anyway, Joyner probably needs to check his Total QBR stats:

http://espn.go.com/nfl/qbr

Wilson ranked 8th in Total QBR according to ESPN — ahead of Andrew Luck (whose statistical performance has tended to lag his overall value) — last season. In 2013 he was 11th; as a rookie he was 5th. So, cross that off the list.

I guess that the 2013 game is problematic because (1) it's the only data point, (2) it hasn't been repeatable in two other matchups against us and some 20 matchups total, (3) Seattle could've easily won that game and was in a position to prior to the freaky play that I linked to.

 

[BurqueCardFan]

Didn't mean to sound snide; just having some fun with the argument. I have a ton of respect for you, which is why it's weird when you float information that you don't back up.

Anyway, Joyner probably needs to check his Total QBR stats:

http://espn.go.com/nfl/qbr

Wilson ranked 8th in Total QBR according to ESPN — ahead of Andrew Luck (whose statistical performance has tended to lag his overall value) — last season. In 2013 he was 11th; as a rookie he was 5th. So, cross that off the list.

I guess that the 2013 game is problematic because (1) it's the only data point, (2) it hasn't been repeatable in two other matchups against us and some 20 matchups total, (3) Seattle could've easily won that game and was in a position to prior to the freaky play that I linked to.

I think if you ask 32 GM's who they would rather start a team with, Wilson or Luck. Probably 31 would say Luck. Even Seattle may say Luck. Stats are just stats. Sometimes you have to use a little common sense.

 

[kerouac9]

I think if you ask 32 GM's who they would rather start a team with, Wilson or Luck. Probably 31 would say Luck. Even Seattle may say Luck. Stats are just stats. Sometimes you have to use a little common sense.

Obviously, I agree: http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/definitive-quarterback-rankings-11-1/

What I'm saying is that Joyner's metric is flawed, and that advanced metrics don't and can't tell the complete story.

 

[ozzfloyd]

This is hilarious coming from someone who thinks that Nick Foles is an NFL-caliber QB:

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on...les-signs-two-year-extension-3-things-to-know

The Rams sure seem to think he is.

 

[82CardsGrad]

I get that Cards fans are loathe to ascribe great value to a Seahawk... Particularly one that is as unique and unconventional as is Wilson. However, aside from Rogers and Luck, the fact remains that Wilson is a top 3-4 QB and may even be a more clutch producer and leader than Luck... Yes, he has had a great defense and RB, but that doesn't guarantee success in the post season. I would take Wilson over Luck - right now.

 

[kerouac9]

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on...les-signs-two-year-extension-3-things-to-know

The Rams sure seem to think he is.

A two-year extension paying him $8M per year is hardly a vote of confidence.

 

[ozzfloyd]

A two-year extension paying him $8M per year is hardly a vote of confidence.

True, but hardly a 'non-NFL caliber QB'. At worst he's a solid career backup QB.

 

[Stout]

I get that Cards fans are loathe to ascribe great value to a Seahawk... Particularly one that is as unique and unconventional as is Wilson. However, aside from Rogers and Luck, the fact remains that Wilson is a top 3-4 QB and may even be a more clutch producer and leader than Luck... Yes, he has had a great defense and RB, but that doesn't guarantee success in the post season. I would take Wilson over Luck - right now.

Madness.

 

[kerouac9]

Madness.

Yeah. Andrew Luck deserves all the money, and he's going to get it.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Yeah. Andrew Luck deserves all the money, and he's going to get it.

LOL...

 

[Kel Varnsen]

The new contract must not be for enough money.

Seahawks quarterback Russell Wilson took a brutal hit to the head from Packers linebacker Clay Matthews after throwing an interception in the NFC Championship Game, and he looked like he might have suffered a concussion. But Wilson stayed in the game, and wasn’t limited in practice leading up to the Super Bowl.

Now Wilson says credit for healed his head goes to a product he invests in: Recovery Water.

In a lengthy profile in the latest issue of Rolling Stone, Wilson claims the water, which the company he’s working with sells for $3 a bottle, caused his brain to recover from what could have been a serious injury.

“I banged my head during the Packers game in the playoffs, and the next day I was fine,” Wilson said. “It was the water.”

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...ecovery-water-healed-his-head-injury/related/

 

[LoyaltyisaCurse]

The new contract must not be for enough money.

I wonder if God told him this.

 

[DemsMyBoys]

Gee, Russell, if the water heals head injuries you should pass it out for free at hospitals.

Guaranteed Nobel Prize for Peace and Medicine.

 

[HeavyB3]

I have a problem with this. First of all, if he did have a head issue during the game, he was concussed and should have gone through concussion protocol. If he did and he didn't have a concussion, then he didn't just develop one later on. If he didn't then his claim is already false.

Second, as a spokesmen or salesperson of a product, you can't make false claims, especially of a healing nature. Is this product an FDA approved concussion cure? No way. This is like the stupid essential oil sellers saying their aptly named theives oil cures ebola.

Seahawks fans are largely stupid, and will believe this water will heal what ails them because their hero Russel Wilson tells them so.

 

[ozzfloyd]

This is hilarious coming from someone who thinks that Nick Foles is an NFL-caliber QB:

Just revisiting this.

-Foles is a team captain.
-Starting QB for the Rams.
-Just had a hell of a game beating Seattle.

18/27 297 yards no int



...but not NFL caliber. Got it.


Care to revisit your hilarious previous take?