OT - Russell Wilson gets paid

[kerouac9]

When Darrel Bevell had a real NFL QB in 2009, their team put up 470 points which was good for 2nd in the league and top 3 in yards. Of course, I'm sure you'd rather judge him when he had the likes of Tavaris Jackson, Russell Wilson, and Gus Frerrotte at QB.

McCown's stretch with Chicago is better than anything than Wilson has remotely resembled.

Funny how you arbitrarily forget to mention the fact of 21 games with under 200 yards passing.

Who said anything about Chicago? McCown threw 5 300+ yard games for the Bucs and Browns. Was he better than Russell Wilson?

Putting the (apparently) ONLY qualification for quality QB play at 300+ yard passing games is the DEFINITION of an arbitrary benchmark. When the arbitrariness of the benchmark is pointed out, you scramble around trying to muddy the waters.

Middling offensive coordinator does wonders with future Hall of Fame quarterback. Also, Dog bites man. Collinsworth and Michaels were all over Bevell for his dumb playcalling Sunday night.

Johnny Manziel has more 300 yard passing games this season than Russell Wilson — probably better, right? Brian Hoyer has 4 300+ yard passing games the last two years than Russell Wilson — you'd rather have him, and most of the NFL would agree with you, right?

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Who said anything about Chicago? McCown threw 5 300+ yard games for the Bucs and Browns. Was he better than Russell Wilson?

Putting the (apparently) ONLY qualification for quality QB play at 300+ yard passing games is the DEFINITION of an arbitrary benchmark. When the arbitrariness of the benchmark is pointed out, you scramble around trying to muddy the waters.

Middling offensive coordinator does wonders with future Hall of Fame quarterback. Also, Dog bites man. Collinsworth and Michaels were all over Bevell for his dumb playcalling Sunday night.

Johnny Manziel has more 300 yard passing games this season than Russell Wilson — probably better, right? Brian Hoyer has 4 300+ yard passing games the last two years than Russell Wilson — you'd rather have him, and most of the NFL would agree with you, right?[/QUOTE
Well, if Collinsworth and Michaels say so, it has to be .

This reminds me of a few years back when you tried to convince me, and anyone who would listen, that Alex Smith was a top tier QB. We see how that turned out. It makes sense to me now because they are both the epitome of game management QB's. You obviously like that.

 

[kerouac9]

Well, if Collinsworth and Michaels say so, it has to be .

This reminds me of a few years back when you tried to convince me, and anyone who would listen, that Alex Smith was a top tier QB. We see how that turned out. It makes sense to me now because they are both the epitome of game management QB's. You obviously like that.

Yes, whatever happens, when your reasoning is shown to be empty or insupportable, change the subject.

Well, Alex Smith already has 1 300+ yard game this season and two 280+ yard games, so he's clearly better than Russell Wilson.

I don't think my argument was that Alex Smith was a top-tier QB (Find the post — I know you hate supporting your points, so you probably won't). My argument with Smith was that he was an adequate starter and worth pursuing over Kevin Kolb. Here's me a year and a half ago ranking Alex Smith 15th in the league — you should probably take your victory lap.

Yeah, that argument was pretty dumb.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Yes, whatever happens, when your reasoning is shown to be empty or insupportable, change the subject.

Well, Alex Smith already has 1 300+ yard game this season and two 280+ yard games, so he's clearly better than Russell Wilson.

I don't think my argument was that Alex Smith was a top-tier QB (Find the post — I know you hate supporting your points, so you probably won't). My argument with Smith was that he was an adequate starter and worth pursuing over Kevin Kolb.

Yeah, that argument was pretty dumb.

Ok. For being super smart, let me explain to you.

Nowhere did I say a 300 yard passing game was the only benchmark to being a good QB. I said, and I'm typing slowly so you can follow... a top QB is on that can be trusted to guide your team to victory when other facets of the team are not functioning at optimal levels. An indication, indication, not sole basis, is a QB that can drop back and win a game for you having an excessive amount of attempts, thus, often resulting in 300+ yard passing games.

Are you still with me? One of the benchmarks for elite QB play is 300 yard passing games. Thus, there is a list that keeps track of such stat and the leaders of this stat are HOF, or future HOF QB's. That may just be coincidence but I'm guessing that's not the case. Pointing out the random guy, like Manziel, does nothing to support your contention and quite frankly makes you come across very shallow.

I'm pretty much done here as it's becoming a waste of my time but I'm sure you'll have some kind of retort.

Also, you are right about one thing when it comes to changing the subject. You did a pretty good job of it of deflecting everyone away from what originally brought this thread back to life, you're wanting to rub people's nose in it about Nick Foles getting benched and pretty much calling them all stupid.

 

[kerouac9]

Ok. For being super smart, let me explain to you.

Nowhere did I say a 300 yard passing game was the only benchmark to being a good QB. I said, and I'm typing slowly so you can follow... a top QB is on that can be trusted to guide your team to victory when other facets of the team are not functioning at optimal levels. An indication, indication, not sole basis, is a QB that can drop back and win a game for you having an excessive amount of attempts, thus, often resulting in 300+ yard passing games.

Are you still with me? One of the benchmarks for elite QB play is 300 yard passing games. Thus, there is a list that keeps track of such stat and the leaders of this stat are HOF, or future HOF QB's. That may just be coincidence but I'm guessing that's not the case. Pointing out the random guy, like Manziel, does nothing to support your contention and quite frankly makes you come across very shallow.

I'm pretty much done here as it's becoming a waste of my time but I'm sure you'll have some kind of retort.

Also, you are right about one thing when it comes to changing the subject. You did a pretty good job of it of deflecting everyone away from what originally brought this thread back to life, you're wanting to rub people's nose in it about Nick Foles getting benched and pretty much calling them all stupid.

So what are some other potential benchmarks? Because the only one I've ever heard you use is 300+ yard passing games. If Russell Wilson rushes for 100 yards on the way to a victory, does that not count for some reason? Why/why not?

It's terrible logic to say that "I like this benchmark, many good QBs meet this benchmark, the benchmark must be correct." If your benchmark had value, terrible QBs like Manziel and McCown wouldn't be able to meet your benchmark.

The reason that I like advanced metrics is that they provide a more complete picture and broaden the conversation to account for more than raw stats like how many yards you can throw for trying to catch up from a hole you might have put your team in. There are lots of ways to win football games and to make plays that help your team win football games.

 

[daves]

I think the sample size suggesting that Wilson is a top QB is bigger than the one that says that he's a chump — particularly when his "bad" season still has him putting up a QB rating of 91+ when he's throwing to guys who couldn't make the Cards' practice squad.

Agree that Wilson is a very good QB. And the Seahawks' receiving corps may be below average. But to say that Doug Baldwin and Jimmy Graham wouldn't make the Cardinals' practice squad is beyond exaggeration.

...dbs

 

[Dude]

Well, Alex Smith already has 1 300+ yard game this season and two 280+ yard games, so he's clearly better than Russell Wilson.

You did state Wilson's QB rating of 91.7 with what he has to work with as some kind of proof. Alex Smith has a 91.5 with a guess a lot better WR's? Stats never tell the whole story and can be used in the wrong manner in most debates. Wilson's a good QB. A to 5 QB a team can ride is up for debate. We will see how he does without a "ton" of help. So far he's just OK IMO.

 

[GatorAZ]

Agree that Wilson is a very good QB. And the Seahawks' receiving corps may be below average. But to say that Doug Baldwin and Jimmy Graham wouldn't make the Cardinals' practice squad is beyond exaggeration.

...dbs

Something is wrong with Jimmy Graham. Maybe he doesn't like the grey skies up there... Three drops the other night for a player with supposed great hands?

 

[daves]

Does it not count that Wilson might have the worst receiving targets in the league?

Dude, seriously. We just had a discussion about the lack of weapons Cam Newton has, and with this year's version of Jimmy Graham being roughly equivalent to Greg Olsen, you have to concede that Baldwin is better than anyone the Panthers have. After the execrable Tedd Ginn, who has averaged 24.8 yards per game in his career and now has 408 yards, no WR on the Panthers has more than 233 yards. The Panthers' WR corps really couldn't make the Cardinals' practice squad.

Baldwin has averaged a whopping 45.6 yards per game, and Kearse isn't horrible. Not saying much, but i'd take the Seahawks' receiving corps over the Panthers'.

And come to think of it, i'd take the Seahawks' receivers over the Rams' any day. Baldwin > Britt and behind Britt the Rams have nothing but the gimmick Austin. Graham vs. Cook isn't even close.

It's a close call with the Eagles and Titans, i'll grant you that.

But have you seen the Ravens' receiving corps now that Smith is out??? Case closed.

...dbs

 

[TJ]

Something is wrong with Jimmy Graham. Maybe he doesn't like the grey skies up there... Three drops the other night for a player with supposed great hands?

Going from Drew Brees to Russell Wilson is like going from a fine-tuned Corvette to a Dodge Dart.

Easy to see if you consider that a lesser talented TE in Ben Watson is more productive this season for Brees than Graham is with Wilson.

 

[GatorAZ]

Going from Drew Brees to Russell Wilson is like going from a fine-tuned Corvette to a Dodge Dart.

Easy to see if you consider that a lesser talented TE in Ben Watson is more productive this season than Graham.

Graham is definitely more of a product of Brees but that doesn't explain some point blank drops this year. I don't think he's fully invested with the Seahawks.

 

[overseascardfan]

Graham is definitely more of a product of Brees but that doesn't explain some point blank drops this year. I don't think he's fully invested with the Seahawks.

Colingsworth mentioned during the game that with Brees, Graham had timing and they were in sync. But with Wilson, there is no timing, the receivers are reactionary because of Wilson's scrambling and making plays out of nothing.

 

[Darkside]

Going from Drew Brees to Russell Wilson is like going from a fine-tuned Corvette to a Dodge Dart.

Easy to see if you consider that a lesser talented TE in Ben Watson is more productive this season for Brees than Graham is with Wilson.

This is ridiculous. Sure, Breeze has the classical QB #s, which I'm all for, I love Marino and so many other classical QBs. But Wilson has been to 2 SBs and won 1, he's already won as many SBs as Breeze and is a decade younger.

I dont necessarily totally agree with K9's analysis of how QB #s, scores, yards, TDs etc, should be calculated but I do know these new age QBs find ways to win that are unique to the NFL. I'm not talking about #s in a traditional sense, I'm talking about winning games. People compare Cam Newton to other athletic QBs. Name me one of those QBs who led his team to a 9-0 record. Just one. We're talking about winning ballgames, people, not about stats.

Wilson is another example of that. He wins games. He wins playoff games. He's won a SB. And they're both young NFL players.

The fact that either of them get compared to a Steve Young or Randall Cunningham or Michael Vick at this stage in their careers and at their age, that tells you what they are, what their base is.

Saw some stats today showing the records Cam Newton is already close to breaking from Steve Young. Back in those days QBs got to sit and learn. Cam Newton and Wilson didn't get to chill like that.

This is the new NFL. New breed of QB, and frankly, I know people call them game managers, but that's partly true: I think this generation and the ones after it are more inclined towards leadership, team play, and just winning games, however they can do that.

Guys like Dan Marino, who didn't win anything, Peyton Manning (his brother has more SB rings than he does), and many others are a thing of the past. Winning championships matter.

 

[SO91]

Well, Darrell Bevel is his OC, and that guy sucks. I'm not going to put much faith in what that guy can and can't design.

What does it mean to "carry a team by passing the ball"? If you can rush for 1200 yards a season or whatever, then why not do it? Why doesn't efficiency matter? Does it not count that Wilson might have the worst receiving targets in the league?

What metric are you using to make this point? I'm not being an ass here, I'm genuinely curious. Can't speak for Cbus, but I think "carrying a team by passing the ball" means doing so when the D isn't the dominant force they've been, or try to win a shootout.

 

[ozzfloyd]

Rams Bench Nick Foles for Case Keenum

https://twitter.com/STLouisRams/status/666391188648366080

LOL. Of the 31 quarterbacks with at least 150 pass attempts this year, Foles is in the bottom four in completion percentage, yards per pass, and touchdown percentage. You guys are super-smart.

Lol. He is still NFL-caliber and that has been demonstrated over the past 3 years. THAT was my only issue with your original take. Even if he's a career clipboard holder...that's still NFL-caliber. Sorry.

 

[TJ]

This is ridiculous. Sure, Breeze has the classical QB #s, which I'm all for, I love Marino and so many other classical QBs. But Wilson has been to 2 SBs and won 1, he's already won as many SBs as Breeze and is a decade younger.

Your entire argument is oversimplified.

How many Superbowls would Wilson have without that defense, Lynch, and others?

If you recall, New Orleans's defense allowed the 20th most points and 25th most YPG. Meanwhile, when Wilson won his Superbowl, his defense ranked #1 in both yards and points.

When Peyton won his Superbowl, his defense was 23rd in points allowed and 21st in YPG.

Brees and Peyton had very little to work with in terms of surrounding talent that could carry them when/if they struggled.

I dont necessarily totally agree with K9's analysis of how QB #s, scores, yards, TDs etc, should be calculated but I do know these new age QBs find ways to win that are unique to the NFL. I'm not talking about #s in a traditional sense, I'm talking about winning games. People compare Cam Newton to other athletic QBs. Name me one of those QBs who led his team to a 9-0 record. Just one. We're talking about winning ballgames, people, not about stats.

The "new age" of QB is a spread offense with multiple WRs and TE who can catch passes, tailored for QBs who can push the ball upfield a la Brees, Palmer, Luck, etc. QBs are completing passes at a much higher % with more yards and more TDs than in decades pass. Russell's game is the exception, not the rule. He does not fit that mold. It's fine, but that kind of quarterback cannot be the catalyst for a high-powered offense.

As for "winning games," if you're going to give Wilson and Cam credit for wins, I suggest you send apology notes to their defenses. It's very simple to beat teams when all you have to do is score more than 16 points in a game; and many times, the defense or special teams will spot you a couple.

Wilson is another example of that. He wins games. He wins playoff games. He's won a SB. And they're both young NFL players.

The fact that either of them get compared to a Steve Young or Randall Cunningham or Michael Vick at this stage in their careers and at their age, that tells you what they are, what their base is.

Steve Young wasn't as reliant on the run as Wilson is. Young had far superior pocket presence and was extremely accurate.

When Randall was young, he was a running QB, but he adapted his game when his speed was a tick or two slower.

Your argument is more applicable to games such as tennis or golf, in which individual accomplishments can be directly attributed to victories. You can't say that Tiger Woods or Jack Nicklaus were supported by teammates; you cant necessarily say the same about guys like Peyton or Brees either; however, when you broaden your scope and look at those teams as a whole, you see far more reliance on the abilities of the quarterback.

When Wilson gets into a shootout because his defense is breaking down, such as this season against Palmer, last season against Rivers, and others, he simply cant produce enough offense to catch up.

That's the reason he's more of a game manager than an elite QB.

 

[Russ Smith]

Going from Drew Brees to Russell Wilson is like going from a fine-tuned Corvette to a Dodge Dart.

Easy to see if you consider that a lesser talented TE in Ben Watson is more productive this season for Brees than Graham is with Wilson.

Exactly. Wilson is a very good player but as Collinsworth said on Sunday, you have to get used to playground ball over set plays. Wilson doesn't drop back and deliver the ball on time, or make a back shoulder throw etc. Wilson moves around gets out of the pocket and improvises big plays. Graham is a guy who was a basketball player before, his entire experience at TE was in a NO offense that was timing based, now he's in a totally different offense. Often he's open but Wilson is running, or he's surprised the ball is throw when it is, They are not in synch at all.

Wilson can play but WR's won't look great playing with him because it's a different offense. The same is largely true with newton although I think he's a better timing passer than Wilson right now.