OTAs, May 23-25, Jun 1-3, Jun 6-9, 2022.

[BritCard]

One is a hope and the other is an

one is a hope and one is an observation. Neither are bad. Just different.

Not at all. My prediction that Moore and Collins will both be good this year is based on what I saw of them last year. How they were used is not their fault. This org as a history of under using and misusing rookies.

I wanted to draft Marco Wilson, but I didn't see enough from him last year to be confident in what we will get this year. But I saw flashes from both Moore and Collins that gives me confidence in both.

And it doesn't really address why it's ok to repeat one, but apparently not the other.

 

[Chopper0080]

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

Zaven Collins is going to have a great season.

That is going to be tough if he doesn't start calling the defense mistake free in the next 3 months. It is not as much of a knock on Zaven as it is a reality with Vance. He seems to want his ILB to call the defense and if Zaven can't, Vigil will and Vance will want him on the field to do so.

 

[cardsfanmd]

Huh, go figure. Bad practices and mental errors. So exactly what I said all season as to why he was sitting behind hicks and why he wasn’t a good player last season. Here’s hoping he’s improved the mental side of the game this year!

And two shoulder injuries…

 

[Stout]

Not at all. My prediction that Moore and Collins will both be good this year is based on what I saw of them last year. How they were used is not their fault. This org as a history of under using and misusing rookies.

I wanted to draft Marco Wilson, but I didn't see enough from him last year to be confident in what we will get this year. But I saw flashes from both Moore and Collins that gives me confidence in both.

And it doesn't really address why it's ok to repeat one, but apparently not the other.

Moore at least had something of a body of work, but Collins? That's pure hope. He showed little to nothing, sorry. I'm not terribly high on Moore myself, but to each their own.

 

[kerouac9]

Not at all. My prediction that Moore and Collins will both be good this year is based on what I saw of them last year. How they were used is not their fault. This org as a history of under using and misusing rookies.

I wanted to draft Marco Wilson, but I didn't see enough from him last year to be confident in what we will get this year. But I saw flashes from both Moore and Collins that gives me confidence in both.

And it doesn't really address why it's ok to repeat one, but apparently not the other.

Rondale Moore - 526 snaps.
Zaven Collins - 220 snaps.
"I've seen enough to be confident these guys are gonna be stars."

Marco Wilson - 748 defensive snaps.
"Just haven't seen enough of this guy."

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Not at all. My prediction that Moore and Collins will both be good this year is based on what I saw of them last year. How they were used is not their fault. This org as a history of under using and misusing rookies.

I wanted to draft Marco Wilson, but I didn't see enough from him last year to be confident in what we will get this year. But I saw flashes from both Moore and Collins that gives me confidence in both.

And it doesn't really address why it's ok to repeat one, but apparently not the other.

You think you saw more from collins - a dude by his own confession practiced awfully and couldn’t grasp the mental side of the game - who couldn’t see the field than Wilson? Okay. Says a lot . . .

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

And two shoulder injuries…

Injuries or dinged up. He was so injured that he still played. Sorry, I’m calling that spun excuses.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Huh, go figure. Bad practices and mental errors. So exactly what I said all season as to why he was sitting behind hicks and why he wasn’t a good player last season. Here’s hoping he’s improved the mental side of the game this year!

That's what's crazy about football.

Laymen can watch the game and a player can look good, but the team will see the 4-5 times he filled the wrong gap or played the wrong leverage. Even if that player didn't give up a big play, he will multiple times because of those mental mistakes.

You don't ding an ILB when he gets beat by a slot receiver on a quick slant, but you do ding him when he filled the wrong gap and the RB gets a 15 yard gain.

 

[kerouac9]

That's what's crazy about football.

Laymen can watch the game and a player can look good, but the team will see the 4-5 times he filled the wrong gap or played the wrong leverage. Even if that player didn't give up a big play, he will multiple times because of those mental mistakes.

You don't ding an ILB when he gets beat by a slot receiver on a quick slant, but you do ding him when he filled the wrong gap and the RB gets a 15 yard gain.

It's not even getting beaten. It's when he drops too shallow on a pass zone where the QB went to the other side of the field, or when he didn't call out an adjustment on a play where the OLB blew up the run fit anyway.

That's the real problem with PFF grades — they can see the plays that the guy did or didn't make, but they can't see what they were supposed to do but didn't.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

That's what's crazy about football.

Laymen can watch the game and a player can look good, but the team will see the 4-5 times he filled the wrong gap or played the wrong leverage. Even if that player didn't give up a big play, he will multiple times because of those mental mistakes.

You don't ding an ILB when he gets beat by a slot receiver on a quick slant, but you do ding him when he filled the wrong gap and the RB gets a 15 yard gain.

Yup. It’s why I laugh when I see someone say they “saw big things” in collins last year. We have no idea what his assignment was in each play. For all we knew he could’ve blown his assignment every play. It would confirm why he got so little playing, and indeed less playing time, as the season progressed.

 

[Stout]

Yup. It’s why I laugh when I see someone say they “saw big things” in collins last year. We have no idea what his assignment was in each play. For all we knew he could’ve blown his assignment every play. It would confirm why he got so little playing, and indeed less playing time, as the season progressed.

Realistically, nobody saw big things in Collins last year, because there weren't big things to see--at least not good big things. There wasn't much of anything to see. Some here predicted Collins to be a great pick, wanted him to prove their opinion right, and are somehow misremembering history to reinforce that opinion.

Between his lack of quality play--or any kind of play--last season, and his pre-season comments he has personally spoken to limit expectations, I have no reason to be encouraged that he'll be anything but a bust. I'd like to be pleasantly surprised, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

[DVontel]

Imagine investing premium capital for Inside Linebackers only for both of them to be busts.

 

[BritCard]

Imagine investing premium capital for Inside Linebackers only for both of them to be busts.

I know, imagine...

Good job Simmons and Collins aren't busts.

 

[BulldogCard]

I hope so. We haven't seen anything from him yet, and now we're hearing troublesome words from his very own mouth.

Who is going to call the defensive plays? Inquiring minds want to know.

Baker

 

[Proximo]

Imagine investing premium capital for Inside Linebackers only for both of them to be busts.

Simmons is not a bust.

Has he underperformed so far yes, but he is hardly a bust.

 

[BritCard]

Rondale Moore - 526 snaps.
Zaven Collins - 220 snaps.
"I've seen enough to be confident these guys are gonna be stars."

Marco Wilson - 748 defensive snaps.
"Just haven't seen enough of this guy."

Yeah that's not what I said though is it? You can't even quote me correctly. If you're going to quote someone to try make a point at least get it right.

I didn't say seen enough OF. I said seen enough FROM. It's not about quantity. I even said "saw enough in flashes".

So just to be clear, while I saw more of Marco Wilson I didn't see enough from him that impressed me. From both Collins and Moore I saw enough good plays to feel confident that they have the talent after adjusting their rookie year.

I've now had to write about 5 messages to defend the simple post of "Zaven Collins is going to be good this year". This board is getting like Twitter. People taking the simplist things, twisting them and misquoting or purposefully misrepresenting them to try win some imaginary point.

And it's always the same 2-3 people.

 

[BulldogCard]

I am hoping Simmons turns into that stud he looks like at times and becomes a defensive star. I have to say I was nervous about the smaller school pick in Collins like it was taking a big chance and Keim reached. I hope he becomes a perennial all pro but I'm not seeing anything but yet another potential 1st round bust. Hopefully the light comes on for him. He does look the part with his athleticism and size. It's from the neck up that will determine what happens. The fact that Vigil was signed could indicate a real problem calling plays but not necessarily. It'll have to play itself out in camp.

 

[BritCard]

You think you saw more from collins - a dude by his own confession practiced awfully and couldn’t grasp the mental side of the game - who couldn’t see the field than Wilson? Okay. Says a lot . . .

See, you can't even quote what he said correctly. He never said he "Practiced awfully". He said he had some bad practices as an explanation, combines with 2 shoulder injuries, as to why he lost playing time last year.

It's not about the number of snaps, it's about what I saw in the snaps they did play.

 

[Chopper0080]

Imagine investing premium capital for Inside Linebackers only for both of them to be busts.

I will see this and raise you...imagine investing premium capital for players only to use them in a completely different way than they were successful in college.

 

[Chopper0080]

See, you can't even quote what he said correctly. He never said he "Practiced awfully". He said he had some bad practices as an explanation, combines with 2 shoulder injuries, as to why he lost playing time last year.

It's not about the number of snaps, it's about what I saw in the snaps they did play.

And I think to everyone's point, I don't think you saw what you think you saw. He totaled 220 snaps in the season and produced 13 solo tackles, 1 TFL, and 3 PDs. It's not like Gardeck who was super productive in his limited snaps in 2020. Collins had limited snaps and didn't produce.

I understand that you are hopeful but please recognize that there is nothing that has been demonstrated on the field so far that backs up that hope. Nothing. And that nothing is what we have to go off of if we are projecting growth. It also doesn't help that his DC wants traditional read/react ILBs and Collins was productive in college by playing OLB in a 3-3-5 base defense. So he played off-ball but did not have traditional MLB responsibilities which is what Vance is asking him to do now.

 

[Stout]

And I think to everyone's point, I don't think you saw what you think you saw. He totaled 220 snaps in the season and produced 13 solo tackles, 1 TFL, and 3 PDs. It's not like Gardeck who was super productive in his limited snaps in 2020. Collins had limited snaps and didn't produce.

I understand that you are hopeful but please recognize that there is nothing that has been demonstrated on the field so far that backs up that hope. Nothing. And that nothing is what we have to go off of if we are projecting growth. It also doesn't help that his DC wants traditional read/react ILBs and Collins was productive in college by playing OLB in a 3-3-5 base defense. So he played off-ball but did not have traditional MLB responsibilities which is what Vance is asking him to do now.

This.

 

[Stout]

See, you can't even quote what he said correctly. He never said he "Practiced awfully". He said he had some bad practices as an explanation, combines with 2 shoulder injuries, as to why he lost playing time last year.

It's not about the number of snaps, it's about what I saw in the snaps they did play.

And he said he didn't and doesn't have the mental aspect of the game down. He may not be able to call plays in his second year. His second year!

When you assert the opinion that Collins will be good this year, it's logical for posters to argue with that opinion, because he hasn't shown that he can be. Not yet. Maybe you saw some flashes the size of a matchhead spark, but most of the board didn't.

 

[BritCard]

And he said he didn't and doesn't have the mental aspect of the game down. He may not be able to call plays in his second year. His second year!

When you assert the opinion that Collins will be good this year, it's logical for posters to argue with that opinion, because he hasn't shown that he can be. Not yet. Maybe you saw some flashes the size of a matchhead spark, but most of the board didn't.

Yeah, except nobody has argued the opinion. Not initially anyway.

Arguing the opinion would be saying "I didn't see that". Rather than the multiple times people have made personal digs.

 

[Stout]

Yeah, except nobody has argued the opinion. Not initially anyway.

Arguing the opinion would be saying "I didn't see that". Rather than the multiple times people have made personal digs.

Gotcha.

 

[Chopper0080]

This is going to sound spicier than it should, but Zaven Collins heading into year 2 is nearly identical to Andy Isabella heading into year 2. Isabella had 150 offensive snaps where he didn't show much, reports of his struggles to adapt his rookie year but was also drafted high and had nice reported athletic numbers. Both from smaller schools and both being asked to do something different than what they did in college.