Overall, we've had a good offseason. Right Kerr/Sarver bashers?

[Cheesebeef]

By "if it works" do you mean "win a championship"?

no. You can have improvement without winning a title, especially when you win 1 game in the playoffs the previous season.

 

[Cheesebeef]

The only way to judge the offseason, during the offseason is to look at the moves that they made, and relate them to our needs vs. the value that we received for aquiring the player.... right?

yeah, but you throw down the gauntlet that you can't possibly be wrong here, or at least that's what I get from the tone of the title of thread (and which Mainstreet commented on immediately in the second post).

Again, just because needs were addressed, doesn't mean everyone need believe they were addressed adequately. There's a lot of people (outside of this board, in the media, in draft-mocks, etc, etc.) who don't value Lopez or Dragic nearly as much as you apparently do. I'm not sure why that's so hard to understand.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

yeah, but you throw down the gauntlet that you can't possibly be wrong here, or at least that's what I get from the tone of the title of thread (and which Mainstreet commented on immediately in the second post).

Again, just because needs were addressed, doesn't mean everyone need believe they were addressed adequately. There's a lot of people (outside of this board, in the media, in draft-mocks, etc, etc.) who don't value Lopez or Dragic nearly as much as you apparently do. I'm not sure why that's so hard to understand.

I haven't expressed my opinions on Lopez or Dragic at all on this board. I only stated that I thought we had a good offseason and that I thought Matt Barnes was a steal.

 

[Cheesewater]

Again, just because needs were addressed, doesn't mean everyone need believe they were addressed adequately. There's a lot of people (outside of this board, in the media, in draft-mocks, etc, etc.) who don't value Lopez or Dragic nearly as much as you apparently do. I'm not sure why that's so hard to understand.

Unless someone who has an equal or greater depth of knowledge and understanding of basketball and the needs and plans of the Phoenix Suns comes out with a sensible explanation at to why Lopez and Dragic are bad decisions for the team, given ALL of the circumstances, I'm going to go with the folks who are paid to do that job and whose asses are on the line if they don't succeed.

Am I a lemming? Am I a glass half full guy? Am I sensible?

 

[Cheesebeef]

Unless someone who has an equal or greater depth of knowledge and understanding of basketball and the needs and plans of the Phoenix Suns comes out with a sensible explanation at to why Lopez and Dragic are bad decisions for the team, given ALL of the circumstances, I'm going to go with the folks who are paid to do that job and whose asses are on the line if they don't succeed.

okay. I'm not like you. The above implies that you think GMs ALWAYS know what they're doing and you always believe them. There's plenty of guys who have jobs at the NFL and NBA level who are horrific at them (just look at Rod Graves on the cards or Matt Millen for the Lions as proof of that). You don't have to have a job at the NBA level to recognize their ineptitude and question what a lot of people in the media agree are questionable moves.

Am I a lemming? Am I a glass half full guy? Am I sensible?

only time will tell.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I haven't expressed my opinions on Lopez or Dragic at all on this board. I only stated that I thought we had a good offseason and that I thought Matt Barnes was a steal.

so what are your thoughts on them? I'm assuming because you think we had a good offseason, that you believe both of them will be solid contributors, no? If not, then I'm truely clueless as how you can give the team an A for it's offseason. It's one thing to have a plan (that everyone who's ever watched a second of basketball could agree upon). It's another thing to execute it properly.

 

[Cheesewater]

okay. I'm not like you. The above implies that you think GMs ALWAYS know what they're doing and you always believe them. There's plenty of guys who have jobs at the NFL and NBA level who are horrific at them (just look at Rod Graves on the cards or Matt Millen for the Lions as proof of that). You don't have to have a job at the NBA level to recognize their ineptitude and question what a lot of people in the media agree are questionable moves.

No. I think I was clear about the Phoenix Suns. Pretty specific actually.

Oversimplification of the process is the mark of armchair GMs everywhere.
That's not directed at you Beef...just an observation.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

so what are your thoughts on them? I'm assuming because you think we had a good offseason, that you believe both of them will be solid contributors, no? If not, then I'm truely clueless as how you can give the team an A for it's offseason. It's one thing to have a plan (that everyone who's ever watched a second of basketball could agree upon). It's another thing to execute it properly.

If the front office is happy with their selections, then I am happy. I am encouraged by what Lopez did in the summer leagues and by how he played against Team USA. I don't know enough about Dragic other than the videos that we have seen.

If they are willing to pay what they have for him, and get into luxury tax dollars, then I'm convinced too.

 

[Chaplin]

man, I don't get this at all. chap, doesn't a team only meet goals they set if the moves actually work? I mean, the Suns needed to get a backup PG for Nash two years ago and signed a PG named Marcus Banks. Does that mean in your mind that they achieved their goal of getting a backup PG? Or last year, when again, they needed a backup PG, and they drafted a PG DJ Strawberry? I mean, if we lost out on Dragic (who hasn't proven he can play at this level yet) and ended up signing Wilks (who has proven he pretty much can't play at this level for any team worth a damn) as our backup PG, would you have still said they accomplished their goals... simply because Wilks was a PG? It's like saying we accomplished our goal last year in replacing our backup C because we signed Skinner to replace KT. Do you really think think that goal was met?



how do you not understand this. No one's "whining" (nice inflammatory term there) about the goals themselves. EVERYONE believes we needed a backup C, PG and swing-man. Some of us just don't believe just because we signed guys who play those positions that they're gonna automatically be the guys at those positions who are going to help us. I really don't understand what's so difficult to understand about that.



shouldn't the off-season be measured by if it works or not, particularly when the off-season moves for the majority are completely unknown commodities? I mean, isn't hindsight really the ONLY way an off-season can ultimately be judged?

Then by your definition, wouldn't your grade be "Inccmplete"? If so, why even be on this thread? Not trying to degrade your being here, but you are so negatively adamant about everything all the time, I just wonder why you waste your time.

 

[Chaplin]

so what are your thoughts on them? I'm assuming because you think we had a good offseason, that you believe both of them will be solid contributors, no? If not, then I'm truely clueless as how you can give the team an A for it's offseason. It's one thing to have a plan (that everyone who's ever watched a second of basketball could agree upon). It's another thing to execute it properly.

Huh? The plan was to get a backup PG, a backup big man and another wing player. They achieved all 3 of those things. Can they play? The fans might not think so, but the team certainly thinks they can.

The point is, they achieved all 3 things they wanted to achieve over the summer. You may not think Lopez can play, but the Suns certainly do, and for that, they get an A for a successful creation of their plan for 08/09.

Now, we won't know what grade the plan itself will get until after the season. There are two steps, the creation of the plan and the execution of the plan. The creation is basically the offseason, the execution is the regular season/playoffs.

The creation of that plan gets an A because they achieved everything they set out to do. Period.

 

[Irish]

Evaluating the draft after the fact is a bit deceptive. The Suns decided to focus on guys who met real needs rather than great potential projects. This may prove to be an error, but it is necessary to evaluate them based on what the team was trying to do.

For Lopez, was there someone else in the next 45 players picked in the draft that will turn out to be better? I'd almost guarantee it.Was there any big guy CERTAIN to be a lot better than Lopez, I really doubt it short term, Long term, I'd say there is a good chance somebody might do better. But to judge Kerr, you have to judge his strategy. He took a defensive specialist who is tall, mobile, and active on a team that really needs someone like that.

A lot of people have argued that the Suns should have taken someone who could become a star player in a few years. How did a likely star fall to #15? My guess is that the players being considered are not LIKELY stars, just guys with lots of potential but also a good chance of not being very good. IMHO, getting a big defensive specialist is not very glizy, but is more likely bo be solid and less likely to flop.

Dragic was taken mostly for his long term potential (eventual replacement for Nash), but the urgency of his development emerged when they could not get free agent PG they thought would do a better job. From a draft standpoint, it is very unlikely there was a PG worth having in the last 15 in the draft. Even if they thought Chalmers would be better, they had no chance to get him.

Some of the criticism of these two picks seem unrealistic. Crticising Dragic because he will not be Chris Paul (nor will Rose either) seems unreasonable to me.

There was no PG in the draft after Chalmers worth thinking about. It turned out free agency was also a washout.. Lue was cut by the Hawks after dropping to 3rd or 4th position and signed with the Mavs who didn't play him. What made him worth $2 and half million? Pargo and Arroyo are far from great and they got big buchs in Europe.

Dragic has a lot of upside to go with his current defense and open court skills. In the short run, he looks like a clear improvement over Barbosa at PG and as he gains experience should become a a pretty good player. Was there really a better option?

Bottom line, the Kerr did what he set out to do. He made a serious effort to fill some major holes and build for the future. What's wrong with that?

 

[nowagimp]

man, I don't get this at all. chap, doesn't a team only meet goals they set if the moves actually work? I mean, the Suns needed to get a backup PG for Nash two years ago and signed a PG named Marcus Banks. Does that mean in your mind that they achieved their goal of getting a backup PG? Or last year, when again, they needed a backup PG, and they drafted a PG DJ Strawberry? I mean, if we lost out on Dragic (who hasn't proven he can play at this level yet) and ended up signing Wilks (who has proven he pretty much can't play at this level for any team worth a damn) as our backup PG, would you have still said they accomplished their goals... simply because Wilks was a PG? It's like saying we accomplished our goal last year in replacing our backup C because we signed Skinner to replace KT. Do you really think think that goal was met?

Damn, if just meeting your goals(that you set for yourself) in this way is enough to get a good evaluation at million plus salary, I want that job. Unfortunately some people have to get results for a living, not just meet some stated goals that are supposed to get results in their own opinion.

Ceos and executive officers of companys are evaluated on their results, the success. These guys need to come up looking smart in the draft and in the deals, they need results. Many here apparently only care if they set goals and try.

 

[nowagimp]

no. You can have improvement without winning a title, especially when you win 1 game in the playoffs the previous season.

if grant hill goes down again and they win 2 games against the spurs, they have improved.

 

[Irish]

Damn, if just meeting your goals(that you set for yourself) in this way is enough to get a good evaluation at million plus salary, I want that job. Unfortunately some people have to get results for a living, not just meet some stated goals that are supposed to get results in their own opinion.

Ceos and executive officers of companys are evaluated on their results, the success. These guys need to come up looking smart in the draft and in the deals, they need results. Many here apparently only care if they set goals and try.

Obviously you have never tried to evaluate a startup company.

Does the business plan make sense? Are the steps outlined in the plan being implemented? Are there contingency plans and what steps are being prepared to plan for bad things?

Kerr appears to have a coherent plan: hire a defense oriented coach who wants to push the ball, draft energetic defense oriented players, add younger players to roster, add depth to the team, and get the message across to the esisting players that the team philosophy has changed.

Will it all work? Like with a startup company, there are often factors that cannot be controlled from interest rates to overall economic condiitions. A good plan does not have guarantees. But I'd rather invest in a company that has a good plan than one that has had success but only due to dumb luck.

 

[Cheesewater]

Damn, if just meeting your goals(that you set for yourself) in this way is enough to get a good evaluation at million plus salary, I want that job. Unfortunately some people have to get results for a living, not just meet some stated goals that are supposed to get results in their own opinion.

Ceos and executive officers of companys are evaluated on their results, the success. These guys need to come up looking smart in the draft and in the deals, they need results. Many here apparently only care if they set goals and try.

There are many CEOs with both long, multi-million dollar salaried careers and poor track records of results. Idiots, morons, dullards, and poor managers last for ages in the upper reaches of business management.

As for what "many here apparently only care" about...I care that the Suns win and are entertaining while doing it. I am satisfied if they make attempts to acheive those goals. I don't die every year the Suns don't win a championship. I've got more to burn my energy on and more in my life than that. I find it more enjoyable to analyze and take an optimistic view on the offseason dealings because it doesn't do me any good to get my panties in a bunch and spit vitriol because Steve Kerr didn't somehow get LeBron James for the minimum.

 

[Covert Rain]

how many of those guys drafted are expected to MAJOR roles on a Title Contending team(or what the Suns and some fans believe to be a Title contending team)? It's about expectations. I think what Steel is saying that for a team that has one year at most left in it's window of opportunity for a title, that getting guys with no experience to man unbelievably instrumental positions isn't something that he can get excited about

Exactly. If we had instead traded for or signed proven veterans filling those roles then I would have said "A" in a heartbeat. We have no clue what we are getting in Lopez and Dragic. Many of you have stated we needed those positions filled to compete for a title. Filling those positions with unproven rookies is not exactly my idea of shoring up your title contending team.

That's why I say "C".

The Suns came into the offseason with specific goals. They met those goals, however much fans whine about what those goals are.

I seriously doubt the Suns goal was to just simply fill spots (like backup PG). The Suns have done that before (i.e. Marcus Banks). The very reason the Suns are still searching is because that goal was not met.

Their goals were to get a legit PG who can back up Nash and contribute. If goals being met was simply a matter of filling your roster spot in the offseason with whatever you can get your hands on then no GM should ever be fired.

You can't fault them for achieving their goals. You can fault them, however, for not having very lofty goals, if that's your opinion.

Your right. So as soon as the Suns have a legit backup PG who proves he can actually contribute....I will agree.

man, I don't get this at all. chap, doesn't a team only meet goals they set if the moves actually work? I mean, the Suns needed to get a backup PG for Nash two years ago and signed a PG named Marcus Banks. Does that mean in your mind that they achieved their goal of getting a backup PG? Or last year, when again, they needed a backup PG, and they drafted a PG DJ Strawberry? I mean, if we lost out on Dragic (who hasn't proven he can play at this level yet) and ended up signing Wilks (who has proven he pretty much can't play at this level for any team worth a damn) as our backup PG, would you have still said they accomplished their goals... simply because Wilks was a PG? It's like saying we accomplished our goal last year in replacing our backup C because we signed Skinner to replace KT. Do you really think think that goal was met?

Well said.

If you had polled this entire board in the offseason and asked "Do you want the Suns to draft rookies to fill our needs or get proven veterans to fill those roster spots", the poll would not have been close. After all people have posted a million trade scenarios for veteran players. Now all of the sudden we draft Lopez and Dragic and all is fine in the world? I don't get it.

There is a huge difference between people whining and people being critical of Suns choices as of late. Hopefully, these latest ones work out. Nobody wants this team to win more then I do.

 

[Irish]

Read my tag line. We have absolutely no evidence that there was a quality PG available for what the Suns have to offer.

The problem is that most teams don't have one guy who would be a good backup for the Suns and far fewer with two guys. So exactly how many teams have three guys? If the Suns had a quality backup for Nash, would they trade him for Barbosa? If not, why would some other team do it?

 

[nowagimp]

Obviously you have never tried to evaluate a startup company.

Does the business plan make sense? Are the steps outlined in the plan being implemented? Are there contingency plans and what steps are being prepared to plan for bad things?

Kerr appears to have a coherent plan: hire a defense oriented coach who wants to push the ball, draft energetic defense oriented players, add younger players to roster, add depth to the team, and get the message across to the esisting players that the team philosophy has changed.

Will it all work? Like with a startup company, there are often factors that cannot be controlled from interest rates to overall economic condiitions. A good plan does not have guarantees. But I'd rather invest in a company that has a good plan than one that has had success but only due to dumb luck.

1) You couldnt possibly be more off base, as I have worked in a startup company for the past 10 years and regularly evaluate the the technical merits of other startups for our investors. The lack of solid technical merit often kills any good business plan. I am also well aware of business plans, but at some point the plan has to work or the company will become an "unfunded" startup company. The days of selling a company without a proven product/assets are over, there will be no more dot coms. Investors now want to see much more than a good plan, plans are easy, results are tougher.

2) If the plan set out by Kerr doesnt work, as in the team isnt notably better, then there is no real evidence that it was even a good plan. There are plenty of good defensive teams in the NBA that dont win titles every year. Good defense is no guarantee of anything, just perhaps a necessary condition of a championship team. With so few examples to work with its even possible that a mediocre defensive team like the lakers wins a championship9last years lakers team wasnt far away). Kerrs plan is under test, many other good defensive teams had a dominant defender, TD with the spurs, KG with the celtics, Ben Wallace with the pistons, kerr does not have that dominant defensive big guy. The most likely successful plan based on the recent historical record in the NBA is that you must have a dominant big guy defender to patrol the lane. Shaq is a little long in the tooth to be that guy.

3) the suns are not a a startup company, not even close. Big companies with revenue and sales operate differently. If the CEO and executive staff dont provide the stockholders with result$, he/she will be gone asap.

I have worked for both big companies like Exxon, and siebe corp as well as startups and there is a huge difference. Where they are similar is in the need to reduce the exposure/risks of investors and keep them low. Plans either work or they find someone else to make new plans to work. the appearance of a good plan is not success by any real measure.

 

[Cheesewater]

Exactly. If we had instead traded for or signed proven veterans filling those roles then I would have said "A" in a heartbeat. We have no clue what we are getting in Lopez and Dragic. Many of you have stated we needed those positions filled to compete for a title. Filling those positions with unproven rookies is not exactly my idea of shoring up your title contending team. That's why I say "C".

Who? And don't say "Someone like..." I want names of who the Suns could have actually traded for or signed that would satisfy you. Remember, just because the Suns want Chris Paul doesn't mean the Hornets would take Alando Tucker for him.

If you had polled this entire board in the offseason and asked "Do you want the Suns to draft rookies to fill our needs or get proven veterans to fill those roster spots", the poll would not have been close. After all people have posted a million trade scenarios for veteran players. Now all of the sudden we draft Lopez and Dragic and all is fine in the world? I don't get it.

Again, who? If you polled me and said "Who do you want: Goran Dragic or Tyronn Lue?" I'm going with Dragic. "Brian Skinner or Robin Lopez?" It's Lopez. I don't have any doubt that Lopez can give at least what Skinner did...that's not setting the bar very high. By the way, posting a trade scenario doesn't make it possible. Just making the numbers work isn't all there is to it.

 

[nowagimp]

There are many CEOs with both long, multi-million dollar salaried careers and poor track records of results. Idiots, morons, dullards, and poor managers last for ages in the upper reaches of business management.

CEOs are mostly jettisoned for poor financial performance(results) in my experience. Stockholders dont accept failure for very long. Poor managers will last as long as the investors are happy and they typically dont care about how managers get along with their subordinates, so long as it doesnt obviously hurt the bottom line. Anyone who thinks CEO's arent evaluated by their results, must also believe that investors are stupid and like to lose money. You have your own little world there, if thats what you think. A fledgling GM like Steve Kerr has much more pto prove to his bosses than say a greg popovich or phil jackson. History says those guys know how to win a championship, the jury is out on kerr until he does something. Just copying greg popovich(without Tim Duncan of course) doesnt make steve kerrs plan or knowledge legitimate. When steve kerr does something he will get the credit and the latitude of a good GM, for now he is just a big ?, like lopez or dragic. The difference is that lopez and dragic cant kill the franchises competitiveness for years, a bad GM can.

 

[Covert Rain]

Who? And don't say "Someone like..." I want names of who the Suns could have actually traded for or signed that would satisfy you. Remember, just because the Suns want Chris Paul doesn't mean the Hornets would take Alando Tucker for him.

There are endless trade scenarios. You can't be serious. Are you inferring that the Suns exhausted every trade scenario? Even trading someone for cap space so you could sign someone was a possibility. Depending on who they traded for cap space I could not answer that question. I am not a trade generator.

Plus I have commented on enough trade scenarios on this very forum for guys that I like or would have liked for them to pursue.

Again, who? If you polled me and said "Who do you want: Goran Dragic or Tyronn Lue?" I'm going with Dragic. "Brian Skinner or Robin Lopez?" It's Lopez. I don't have any doubt that Lopez can give at least what Skinner did...that's not setting the bar very high. By the way, posting a trade scenario doesn't make it possible. Just making the numbers work isn't all there is to it.

I was not referring specifically to that scenario. Besides, if the Suns were determined on getting veteran players do you think we would have kept those pics?

Also, the question would have been asked pre-draft. There were no abundance of "Draft Lopez" or "Draft Dragic" threads on this board. So to say you would have taken Lopez or Dragic post draft to some guys we were pusuing is complete hind site. Your missing the point.

People if given a choice would not have chosen untested rookies over veteran guys. ESPECIALLY because pre-draft we had no idea who would be up there or where we would draft. I have a hard time believing the majority of folks were thinking "I will take player X" no matter who we draft over any veterans out there. That would have been a huge leap of faith pre-draft not knowing who was there...oh and by the way them being untested rookies on top of that.

The posted trade suggestions were endless on this board. If people really had 100% faith in the draft and preferred those guys to fill our spots, nobody would have cared about the free agent list or trades scenarios.

 

[Cheesewater]

CEOs are mostly jettisoned for poor financial performance(results) in my experience. Stockholders dont accept failure for very long. Poor managers will last as long as the investors are happy and they typically dont care about how managers get along with their subordinates, so long as it doesnt obviously hurt the bottom line. Anyone who thinks CEO's arent evaluated by their results, must also believe that investors are stupid and like to lose money. You have your own little world there, if thats what you think. A fledgling GM like Steve Kerr has much more pto prove to his bosses than say a greg popovich or phil jackson. History says those guys know how to win a championship, the jury is out on kerr until he does something. Just copying greg popovich(without Tim Duncan of course) doesnt make steve kerrs plan or knowledge legitimate. When steve kerr does something he will get the credit and the latitude of a good GM, for now he is just a big ?, like lopez or dragic. The difference is that lopez and dragic cant kill the franchises competitiveness for years, a bad GM can.

Hasn't General Motors been losing billions every year? Isn't General Motors' CEO a guy who makes millions a year and has been in his job since 2000? Sure he'll lose his job...maybe...but hasn't he been captaining a sinking ship for nearly a DECADE? Maybe those General Motors investors ARE stupid. And when he does walk...it will be with a smile and a handshake and a gold watch and an enormous severance...with no mention of how much he might suck.

 

[Cheesewater]

There are endless trade scenarios. You can't be serious. Are you inferring that the Suns exhausted every trade scenario? Even trading someone for cap space so you could sign someone was a possibility. Depending on who they traded for cap space I could not answer that question. I am not a trade generator.

Plus I have commented on enough trade scenarios on this very forum for guys that I like or would have liked for them to pursue.

No, there are NOT endless trade scenarios. You can only get who is available. The player has to fit the system. The player's team has to want what you are giving. THEN...the numbers have to work. And yes, I'll bet WAAAAAAYYY before the draft, Kerr and Griffin and Sarver and whoever else sat down and looked at all the possiblilites at the time. Why wouldn't they? Don't they want to win? There has to be a guy out there they wanted more than Robin Lopez and that they actually had a chance of signing.

I was not referring specifically to that scenario. Besides, if the Suns were determined on getting veteran players do you think we would have kept those pics?

Also, the question would have been asked pre-draft. There were no abundance of "Draft Lopez" or "Draft Dragic" threads on this board. So to say you would have taken Lopez or Dragic post draft to some guys we were pusuing is complete hind site. Your missing the point.

People if given a choice would not have chosen untested rookies over veteran guys. ESPECIALLY because pre-draft we had no idea who would be up there or where we would draft.

Insert "Guy available at #15 to play Skinner's position" instead of Lopez then. Yes, still. If there is a guy who looks like he can do what Skinner does and perhaps MORE and is a building block for the future...yes. Don't the Suns have enough broken down old guys, I'm sorry, veteran guys? To say "I'm giving the Suns a C for the offseason because I would much rather have had Tyronn Lue than Goran Dragic" at this point is ludicrous to me. If anyone is actually thinking that.

 

[HooverDam]

No, there are NOT endless trade scenarios. You can only get who is available. The player has to fit the system. The player's team has to want what you are giving. THEN...the numbers have to work. And yes, I'll bet WAAAAAAYYY before the draft, Kerr and Griffin and Sarver and whoever else sat down and looked at all the possiblilites at the time. Why wouldn't they? Don't they want to win? There has to be a guy out there they wanted more than Robin Lopez and that they actually had a chance of signing.

You're intentionally setting up impossible scenarios for people arguing with you. How the heck are we supposed to know who the Suns received calls about? Or what deals the Suns nearly pulled the trigger on? You know damned well that we don't have that kind of information, so its hard to pinpoint specific players and say "the Suns should've gotten him." All we can do is look at past deals Steve Kerr has made (i.e. moving KT and TWO picks for nothing) and deduce that from his track record, he probably didn't act quickly or creatively enough.

 

[Covert Rain]

No, there are NOT endless trade scenarios. You can only get who is available. The player has to fit the system. The player's team has to want what you are giving. THEN...the numbers have to work. And yes, I'll bet WAAAAAAYYY before the draft, Kerr and Griffin and Sarver and whoever else sat down and looked at all the possiblilites at the time. Why wouldn't they? Don't they want to win? There has to be a guy out there they wanted more than Robin Lopez and that they actually had a chance of signing.

I am sure they didn't. Despite rumors it appears that Suns were not as willing to get rid of Barbosa or Diaw as was being reported. Depending on which stories you believe. So if that is the case there were probably many trade scenarios not even considered.

Insert "Guy available at #15 to play Skinner's position" instead of Lopez then. Yes, still. If there is a guy who looks like he can do what Skinner does and perhaps MORE and is a building block for the future...yes. Don't the Suns have enough broken down old guys, I'm sorry, veteran guys? To say "I'm giving the Suns a C for the offseason because I would much rather have had Tyronn Lue than Goran Dragic" at this point is ludicrous to me. If anyone is actually thinking that.

Again hind site. Pre-draft you had no clue who player X was, let alone if that player could play Skinners position. I can play the hind site game too. If Lopez was gone and Dragic was gone there was a huge drop off. Kerr even stated himself there was no other guard left of the board but Dragic at the time worth drafting. So, if those players were gone, this could have been tragic to say the least. So, if those players were gone and you can still say you honestly would have taken Player X over veterans.......wow.

Plus, I didn't say TL versus Dragic was the reason. I said the reason is because I think the Suns could have made some moves to get some veteran guys in here who can play those same positions.

To say lets give these guys an "A" for adding 2 untested pieces to team playing such crucial depth positions seems even more ludicrous. I agree these guys might be good future pieces. However, this team is trying to win the title this coming season.