Pace signed!

[Cheesebeef]

Originally posted by Alan
It's obvious that Len didn't talk to Johnson's agent. He is just speculating about a grievence because HE thinks there is a problem.

What makes this so obvious Alan?

 

[TigToad]

Yeah Pace

Ok. I just waded through a lot of bitterness to get to the end of this thread.

Let me just say, we have a first round pick signed near the beginning of camp.

He's a pick I'm happy about, that I think will help our team win this year.. and he's going to have the time to learn the system in pre-season.

I'm disappointed our other 1st round pick hasn't yet signed, but I think he will and looking at the 'bells' in Pace's contract I'm guessing that he'll get some incentives to make his deal worth his time... hopefully the holding out will be at a minimum.

Bottom line, I don't care if its one of two first rounders, or its not the first rounder I wanted on draft day... its been so long since I saw a first round pick play in training camp that I feel extremely joyous at this news and refuse to let other elements of the Cardinals system work against this newfound happiness.

Come on folks, we're Cards fans, if we can't be happy when something goes right, we're even more masochistic than a typical Cubs fan... of which I also am. I need help.

 

[Renz]

I went to the morning practice this morning and I also thought the receivers looked really good. Saw some good plays from Kasper, Foster, McAddley even Newhouse and Poole.

We definitley need Pace more.

Also, McCown didn't look too good. Threw a pick to Renaldo Hill.

Parsons looked good. Blake looked really good.

 

[Jim O]

Originally posted by cheesebeef
You know what - that is BS - THIS BOARD IS FOR DISCUSSING THE TEAM - Would rather have us wait and not talk about this at all until Graves speaks? Well - hey at that point why discuss anything he says because those who are skeptical will just be screamed down with ARE YOU CALLING GRAVES A LIAR? This board is great because we get to react immediately - you get to see people's passions, you get to see what people really think. And it's not jut news of this today that makes me question Rod's negotiating intelligence(not his intelligence overall mind you) - it's years of midn-numbing history that makes me question his ability to do anything right with draft picks. Sorry if that offends, but after watching years of holdouts and wasted seasons from our rooks, the news that came down today gives us every reason to start talking about this immediately.

I never said that people should stop talking about it. Many people are forming strong opinions on one article. I know that it is the only thing to go off of for now. However I simply think that it would be fair to let Graves or the Cardinals tell their side of the story before assaulting. I didn't notice anyone saying that, so I thought that I would jump in.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Originally posted by Skkorpion
Just talked to the Cards PR people. What happened is that the Cards were close to signing Pace and called Joel Segal to tell him they wanted to get both signings done today.

Segal essentially told them he wasn't interested in working to help fit both players into the available cap allotment.

Rod Graves then made the decision not to wait on Johnson because it was obvious Joel Segal wasn't going to be reasonable.

The grievance threat is hilarious. Segal screwed up and is now panicking. There is nothing in the collective barganing agreement that says players must be slotted.

What precipitated this situation was the fabulous play of the young WRs in camp. I'll have a camp report up later today about this.

Skkorp - do you really expect the PR machine to say anything different. I mean Jesus, the word's now already out there that Segal's not being reasonable - what happened to not commenting on the negotiations?

Oh and while it may not a filiable offense, are you really arguing that we shouldn't abide by the guidelines set by the rest of the league as far as slotting players? To me, that makes your post hilarious.

 

[Wild Card]

Originally posted by Skkorpion
Just talked to the Cards PR people. What happened is that the Cards were close to signing Pace and called Joel Segal to tell him they wanted to get both signings done today.

Segal essentially told them he wasn't interested in working to help fit both players into the available cap allotment. Rod Graves then made the decision not to wait on Johnson because it was obvious Joel Segal wasn't going to be reasonable.

The grievance threat is hilarious. Segal screwed up and is now panicking. There is nothing in the collective barganing agreement that says players must be slotted.

What precipitated this situation was the fabulous play of the young WRs in camp. I'll have a camp report up later today about this.

Skkorp:

Great post. It's a shame, though, that it'll bring to a screeching halt 13+ pages of debate--and occasional incoherent shouting--based only on supposition, guesswork, and endless reposting of Len Pasquarelli's column.

Knowledge trumps opinion, every time.

WC

PS: Oops. Just saw Cheesy's response. Wrong again.

 

[Russ Smith]

Originally posted by Northern Card

Originally posted by Russ Smith
absolutely. You have to wonder about the agents involved, Pace's agent HAS to realize this deal mucks up Johnson you wonder why he would push for this?

PACE's agent is responsible for his clients best interests... that's it... that's all...

If we can't sign him we'll have to try and trade him.

CAN we trade a DRAFT pick? Could be wrong, but I don't think so...

Oh absolutely, happens every now and then.

Skorps post makes it sound like basically Johnson's agent is the one being stupid here not Pace's, apologies to Pace.

I agree he has to get what's best for his player, but sometimes that includes what's best for the team no?

 

[Cheesebeef]

Originally posted by Wild Card
Skkorp:

Great post. It's a shame, though, that it'll bring to a screeching halt 13+ pages of debate--and occasional incoherent shouting--based only on supposition, guesswork, and endless reposting of Len Pasquarelli's column.

Knowledge trumps opinion, every time.

WC

PS: Oops. Just saw Cheesy's response. Wrong again.

And the spin begins . . . Personally I don't see why - forget it. People believe what they want to believe.

 

[Sandan]

Originally posted by Stout
Correct me if I'm wrong on this.

What you're basically saying is, if things turn acrimonious and a deal can't get done in a reasonable amount of time, you're going to blame the agent 100 percent. Does that about sum it up?

In other words, the agent should swallow a less palatable deal or else it's his fault his player holds out?

I'm not saying the agent isn't to blame at all. I'm not saying Graves is fully to blame (only mostly, from what we've read in articles thus far). I'm just saying Graves has made this much more difficult for Johnson's agent.

1) No I never said that at all, I have no idea where the "blame" if any lies.

2a) As BJ doesn't have a deal we have no idea if it is less palatable the other deal (hmm what other deal). Howver I think it is a certain that he will not get as palatable deal as he wants. That's whay comprise is about.

2b) His agent must take some responsibility (on average 50%) for not closing a deal sooner while there were more options available.

BJ can still get a good deal but it is likely to be longer term than he wanted, but frankly that was probably true anyway. His agent is pissed IMO because he has limited options now to holdout out for

Editors note: I started typing this before Skorp's post and had to go do some work.

 

[BW52]

Originally posted by cheesebeef
You know what - that is BS - THIS BOARD IS FOR DISCUSSING THE TEAM - Would rather have us wait and not talk about this at all until Graves speaks? Well - hey at that point why discuss anything he says because those who are skeptical will just be screamed down with ARE YOU CALLING GRAVES A LIAR? This board is great because we get to react immediately - you get to see people's passions, you get to see what people really think. And it's not jut news of this today that makes me question Rod's negotiating intelligence(not his intelligence overall mind you) - it's years of midn-numbing history that makes me question his ability to do anything right with draft picks. Sorry if that offends, but after watching years of holdouts and wasted seasons from our rooks, the news that came down today gives us every reason to start talking about this immediately.

Your constant negative comments are BS.But its your right to say so and i respect that right.I just get damn tired of the constant negative spin on everything.I think we just are on different sides of the fence on several things.No offense meant to anyone but it ain`t horseshit every day gang.

 

[Northern Card]

Originally posted by Russ Smith

I agree he has to get what's best for his player, but sometimes that includes what's best for the team no?

Sorry, Russ... but the answer is NO. Anything else is a conflict of interest. Back in the good-old-days that many harken to, there were all too many player reps who were more interested in the quote - "teams' need" at the expense of their clients. I played hockey for ten years for pay... and can tell horror stories.

 

[red desert]

Originally posted by Shane H
Stout,

Pace was signed in a reasonable amount of time IMO. He is a #1 pick and will be here for the necessary reps in camp. That is something I applaude RG for that is no doubt we needed the guy and he got it done. He deserves praise for accomplishing that task!

We know that he has less money to offer up front to Johnson, but that doesnt mean it is necessarily a bad thing IMO. Johnson can easily make it up in a contract that is somewhat backloaded epsecially if they make it guaranteed. This seems to me to be only a minor fould up in the general scheme of things.

If Johnson is still holding ou at the end of August then I will agree with you and probably be a little peeved. But as of now the team has showed progress and has got another 1/53 of the puzzle signed sealed and delivered!

How many number one draft picks sign backloaded contracts? I'm not being sarcastic, just honestly interested in the answer. I would think not very many at all. Am I incorrect?

 

[Brighteyes]

Skorp - it's great to get your info. Really appreciate all your hard work up there - and then taking the time to post it for us all.

By the way - I sign on at 1pm, to see the Republic saying a "Pace deal is close", and ASFN with a front page article.

 

[Russ Smith]

Originally posted by Northern Card
Sorry, Russ... but the answer is NO. Anything else is a conflict of interest. Back in the good-old-days that many harken to, there were all too many player reps who were more interested in the quote - "teams' need" at the expense of their clients. I played hockey for ten years for pay... and can tell horror stories.

Hear me out, what if helping the Cards equates to making the wild card this year? What if the playoff money makes up the difference?

I'm not saying it's cut and dried, just that if what skorp says is true, his agent is basically saying screw you we want our money now and in that situation I would have done what Graves did too, sign the guy I need the MOST, and to hell with Johnson.

We have done that before, just ask Johnny McWilliams who refused to take his offers so we gave some of his money to Rice instead.

It's a weird situation and without knowing the full story i'm just guessing, but sometimes I do think the agent has to realize that getting his player signed can help the team and thus put his player in a better situation. It does sound like the Cards wanted to basically split the deals, and he got greedy and balked.

 

[red desert]

Originally posted by Pariah
Another thought:

While this off-season seems to have been riddled with potential blunders (Boston's non-tag, Johnson's holdout, failure to nab Holliday or Colvin), at least the organization is making moves. Graves seems to be committed to change--in personel and philosophy. He's picked a direction, for good or bad, and run with it.

To make a football analogy: Thomas Jones danced around the hole and didn't seem to have a clear sense where he was going when Jake gave him the rock. As a result, he wasn't a very effective running back. Shipp, on the other hand, picks a hole a hits it. Sometimes he got stuffed because it didn't develop and he had already committed himself to a direction; other times he found himself in space with nothing but green between he and the endzone. We all know how that comparison ended up.

Moral of the story: It's better pick a direction and give it 100% than to pussyfoot around and be indecisive.

Yeah, but you've got to have some talent to begin with in order to have any sort of success. Graves has made some good moves but IMO also some bad moves. How this one will turn out, I don't hold high hope.

 

[maddogkf]

Originally posted by Russ Smith
We have done that before, just ask Johnny McWilliams who refused to take his offers so we gave some of his money to Rice instead..

Ouch! I remember that!

 

[Northern Card]

Originally posted by Russ Smith


Hear me out, what if helping the Cards equates to making the wild card this year? What if the playoff money makes up the difference?

/QUOTE]

Nobody signs a "what if" deal...

 

[maddogkf]

190 responses in 2.5 hours - not bad guys!

 

[Sandan]

Originally posted by red desert
How many number one draft picks sign backloaded contracts? I'm not being sarcastic, just honestly interested in the answer. I would think not very many at all. Am I incorrect?

A 6/7 year deal is NOT BACKLOADED. It just means that the SB is spread across 6/7 years. It has none, zero, nadda effect on when/how the SB is paid out.

 

[Russ Smith]

Originally posted by Northern Card

Originally posted by Russ Smith


Hear me out, what if helping the Cards equates to making the wild card this year? What if the playoff money makes up the difference?

/QUOTE]

Nobody signs a "what if" deal...

I guess my point is if the complaint was he wanted more than half, he needed to consider the potential cost of that.

Frankly I'm apologizing to Graves for my original knock assuming Skorps story is correct. I think it's great that we had the balls to tell Johnson's agent to go to hell if he really refused to work with us here. I realize teams negotiated deals last to first all around the NFL, but if you want a certain amount of money for your pick, you ought to come to the Cards up front and demand they take care of Johnson first.

In not doing so, you take the risk of getting dealt the hand they just got dealt. I'm on record for years as siding with players and agents but right now it appears to me we did the right thing.

He either gets a bigger 2nd tier bonus, or he holds out and hopes someone wants to trade for him.

 

[Red Air Force]

Originally posted by Russ Smith

It just rings odd to me, I agree Pace is the guy we need more, but we DID draft Johnson first so it's VERY unusual to do it this way.

Not really Russ, we signed five other guys before we signed Pace.

In all reality each pick has gotten a bigger contract than the guy before him right? So why can't the same thing apply to Johnson?

 

[red desert]

Originally posted by Skkorpion
Just talked to the Cards PR people. What happened is that the Cards were close to signing Pace and called Joel Segal to tell him they wanted to get both signings done today.

Segal essentially told them he wasn't interested in working to help fit both players into the available cap allotment.

Rod Graves then made the decision not to wait on Johnson because it was obvious Joel Segal wasn't going to be reasonable.

The grievance threat is hilarious. Segal screwed up and is now panicking. There is nothing in the collective barganing agreement that says players must be slotted.

What precipitated this situation was the fabulous play of the young WRs in camp. I'll have a camp report up later today about this.

Okay. Now this is making a little more sense.

 

[sly fly]

If the Cardinals decided to pass on Johnson just because "of the play of the current WR's in camp", then that is sorry.

Johnson's agent played a little hardball, and the Cards took their ball and went home. Typical. So, the Cards basically told Bryant Johnson to go screw himself. So much for the 17th pick in the 1st round.

The fact that we're even having this discussion is ludicrous.

 

[Russ Smith]

Originally posted by CaliforniaCard
Not really Russ, we signed five other guys before we signed Pace.

In all reality each pick has gotten a bigger contract than the guy before him right? So why can't the same thing apply to Johnson?

Because of the rookie cap.

When I wrote that I was on Johnson's side. But if Skorp's account is right, I'm on the Cards side.

Johnson could have gotten more by signing earlier, he chose to wait for others to establish market value. When talks got close the Cards apparently asked his agent for some "help" and he said no, so they gave Pace his money and signed him.

AS Jason points out he can still get more money overall with a creative contract if he doesn't get all hung up on the first year money, if he does, well he made that bed with his agent he needs to sleep in it.

I don't get the impression Johnson is a bad kid at all, I think he just got some bad advice here.

 

[Sandan]

The WR comment is Skorp's and we havn't told them to "go screw themselves".

They played hardball and so did we, why is that a problem. This will resolve itself quickly I hope IMO, either that or not at all.

The not at all option is highly unlikely as it would involve BJ reentering the draft next year. Do you think he would get picked as high then ?