Per MJ

[Jetstream Green]

A complete team needs a herd of unicorns to ride around on. This is about as logical as your statement.

lol

 

[Goldfield]

3.5 mill is cheap for a DT as good as Dumpster Dan.

 

[WisconsinCard]

3.5 mill is cheap for a DT as good as Dumpster Dan.

Unless his weight is a problem. Who knows what he has done in the off season so far. I think his demands are so far off that they couldn't come to an agreement. So I would guess that there is more to the story than meets the eye.

 

[oaken1]

maybe contract term is an issue?? Maybe Dan wants 6-7 yrs but the team only wants to pay for 3..........

or...rumor has it the top 3 NT's in the draft pass rush as well as they stuff the run...maybe the Cards are contemplating drafting one of them.....of course, the top 2 will be gone before 24.......and the third one will be gone in the first half of round 2.....so we would either have to make a trade to move up,...or reach a bit for a player with our first round pick.

 

[cardpa]

I can see it now, Let's say Dumpster Dan signs a new contract with the Cardinals. By mid October there will be posts stating how Dumpster Dan has gotten lazy and fat since he signed his new contract and is not worth $3.5M a year. Just saying it will happen if he re-signs.

 

[Stout]

Based on you last few responses in the last hour or so you have either have had a really bad day or you are PWI because you are coming off as a pretentious prick. Your reply was unwarranted and just plain lame.

Nice to hear from the prick police Hey, sorry, but when someone says something silly, I'm going to call them on it. And expecting an elite 3-4 nose tackle to not only rush the passer but play every down makes zero football sense.

 

[GuernseyCard]

we have a better defense today then in the last years,and sure i also give credit to d.williams

about the last question

the only mao i knew was MAO TSE TUNG

And he would have made a hell of a nose tackle...

 

[Chopper0080]

Just for perspective...3-4 NTs in the league

Arizona-Dan Williams - $2.185
Baltimore-Brandon Williams - $0.623
Cleveland-Ahtyba Rubin - $8.175
Green Bay-BJ Raji - $4.000
Houston-Ryan Pickett - $0.469
Indy-Josh Chapman - $0.548
Kansas City-Dontari Poe - $3.087
New Orleans-Brandon Deaderick - $0.570
New York Jets-Damon Harrison - $0.572
Pittsburgh-Steve McClendon - $2.893
San Diego-Sean Lissmore - $1.000
San Francisco-Glenn Dorsey - $4.484
Tennessee-Sammie Lee Hill - $4.066
Washington-Chris Baker - $2.000

So that is a list of all of the starting 3-4 NTs in the NFL, and their 2014 cap hit. Only 5 players have contracts of over 3 mil, and the Rubin contract is more Cleveland stupidity. Also, I'm pretty sure neither Raji or Dorsey are expected back, which are two of those contracts as well. Sammie Lee Hill is paid by the coach who advocated to draft Dan Williams in round 1, so obviously he values that position.

I don't think either side is off base, but I just look at teams who have consistently good run defenses (Baltimore, Pittsburgh, New York Jets) and I feel that they have it right. You can find these guys in the draft, and you can find cheap FA options if you don't have an elite talent at the position. I don't view Dan Williams as an elite talent so I am good if they don't want to pay him over 2 mil per year.

 

[Jim Otis]

Just for perspective...3-4 NTs in the league

Arizona-Dan Williams - $2.185
Baltimore-Brandon Williams - $0.623
Cleveland-Ahtyba Rubin - $8.175
Green Bay-BJ Raji - $4.000
Houston-Ryan Pickett - $0.469
Indy-Josh Chapman - $0.548
Kansas City-Dontari Poe - $3.087
New Orleans-Brandon Deaderick - $0.570
New York Jets-Damon Harrison - $0.572
Pittsburgh-Steve McClendon - $2.893
San Diego-Sean Lissmore - $1.000
San Francisco-Glenn Dorsey - $4.484
Tennessee-Sammie Lee Hill - $4.066
Washington-Chris Baker - $2.000

So that is a list of all of the starting 3-4 NTs in the NFL, and their 2014 cap hit. Only 5 players have contracts of over 3 mil, and the Rubin contract is more Cleveland stupidity. Also, I'm pretty sure neither Raji or Dorsey are expected back, which are two of those contracts as well. Sammie Lee Hill is paid by the coach who advocated to draft Dan Williams in round 1, so obviously he values that position.

I don't think either side is off base, but I just look at teams who have consistently good run defenses (Baltimore, Pittsburgh, New York Jets) and I feel that they have it right. You can find these guys in the draft, and you can find cheap FA options if you don't have an elite talent at the position. I don't view Dan Williams as an elite talent so I am good if they don't want to pay him over 2 mil per year.

I too can see SK's position , Dontari Poe , a little more than 3 mil. but Poe plays more than 80% of defense snaps, while Dan plays less than 40% .

 

[Austin Zonie]

IMO you keep Dan Williams at $3.5MM and don't look back. Why create a whole on the roster you're required to fill either through the draft or free agency. It appears the cards are going all in for the next 2 years, Williams is part of the solution. Creating more wholes that don't allow you to focus all resources on an elite pass rusher, ILB, or interior OL is a mistake. Dan is a known quantity that understands the D. We have enough to worry about with a new D coordinator to change personnel unnecessarily.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Just for perspective...3-4 NTs in the league

Arizona-Dan Williams - $2.185
Baltimore-Brandon Williams - $0.623
Cleveland-Ahtyba Rubin - $8.175
Green Bay-BJ Raji - $4.000
Houston-Ryan Pickett - $0.469
Indy-Josh Chapman - $0.548
Kansas City-Dontari Poe - $3.087
New Orleans-Brandon Deaderick - $0.570
New York Jets-Damon Harrison - $0.572
Pittsburgh-Steve McClendon - $2.893
San Diego-Sean Lissmore - $1.000
San Francisco-Glenn Dorsey - $4.484
Tennessee-Sammie Lee Hill - $4.066
Washington-Chris Baker - $2.000

This tells me that Williams should not expect a big pay day from anyone and makes me think a return to Arizona is more likely.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Just for perspective...3-4 NTs in the league

Arizona-Dan Williams - $2.185
Baltimore-Brandon Williams - $0.623
Cleveland-Ahtyba Rubin - $8.175
Green Bay-BJ Raji - $4.000
Houston-Ryan Pickett - $0.469
Indy-Josh Chapman - $0.548
Kansas City-Dontari Poe - $3.087
New Orleans-Brandon Deaderick - $0.570
New York Jets-Damon Harrison - $0.572
Pittsburgh-Steve McClendon - $2.893
San Diego-Sean Lissmore - $1.000
San Francisco-Glenn Dorsey - $4.484
Tennessee-Sammie Lee Hill - $4.066
Washington-Chris Baker - $2.000

So that is a list of all of the starting 3-4 NTs in the NFL, and their 2014 cap hit. Only 5 players have contracts of over 3 mil, and the Rubin contract is more Cleveland stupidity. Also, I'm pretty sure neither Raji or Dorsey are expected back, which are two of those contracts as well. Sammie Lee Hill is paid by the coach who advocated to draft Dan Williams in round 1, so obviously he values that position.

I don't think either side is off base, but I just look at teams who have consistently good run defenses (Baltimore, Pittsburgh, New York Jets) and I feel that they have it right. You can find these guys in the draft, and you can find cheap FA options if you don't have an elite talent at the position. I don't view Dan Williams as an elite talent so I am good if they don't want to pay him over 2 mil per year.

Assuming it takes 3 million instead of 2 million (or even 3.5), we're talking about pocket change in the grand scheme of things to keep around an improving and veteran player who knows the system and should be coming in his prime. You have no idea of how someone else will step in will perform.

For an extra 1-1.5 million, that seems worth it.

 

[Stout]

And he would have made a hell of a nose tackle...

Mao Tosi...wow, that name's a blast from the (unpleasant) past!

 

[Chopper0080]

Assuming it takes 3 million instead of 2 million (or even 3.5), we're talking about pocket change in the grand scheme of things to keep around an improving and veteran player who knows the system and should be coming in his prime. You have no idea of how someone else will step in will perform.

For an extra 1-1.5 million, that seems worth it.

1 million is the cost of a veteran player...Larry Foote, Frostee Rucker, Tommy Kelly. That is what you are giving up in terms of talent. Whether you believe it is worth it is the decision. I do not believe it is.

 

[kerouac9]

Just for perspective...3-4 NTs in the league

Arizona-Dan Williams - $2.185
Baltimore-Brandon Williams - $0.623
Cleveland-Ahtyba Rubin - $8.175
Green Bay-BJ Raji - $4.000
Houston-Ryan Pickett - $0.469
Indy-Josh Chapman - $0.548
Kansas City-Dontari Poe - $3.087
New Orleans-Brandon Deaderick - $0.570
New York Jets-Damon Harrison - $0.572
Pittsburgh-Steve McClendon - $2.893
San Diego-Sean Lissmore - $1.000
San Francisco-Glenn Dorsey - $4.484
Tennessee-Sammie Lee Hill - $4.066
Washington-Chris Baker - $2.000

So that is a list of all of the starting 3-4 NTs in the NFL, and their 2014 cap hit. Only 5 players have contracts of over 3 mil, and the Rubin contract is more Cleveland stupidity. Also, I'm pretty sure neither Raji or Dorsey are expected back, which are two of those contracts as well. Sammie Lee Hill is paid by the coach who advocated to draft Dan Williams in round 1, so obviously he values that position.

I don't think either side is off base, but I just look at teams who have consistently good run defenses (Baltimore, Pittsburgh, New York Jets) and I feel that they have it right. You can find these guys in the draft, and you can find cheap FA options if you don't have an elite talent at the position. I don't view Dan Williams as an elite talent so I am good if they don't want to pay him over 2 mil per year.

It's completely unfair to put rookie contracts up with veteran contracts. Total apples to oranges comparison.

Look at Glenn Dorsey's number with the 49ers--that's the cost for an unproven or below average NT (and I think he may have played DE for them) in the veteran marketplace.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

1 million is the cost of a veteran player...Larry Foote, Frostee Rucker, Tommy Kelly. That is what you are giving up in terms of talent. Whether you believe it is worth it is the decision. I do not believe it is.

Sure, cherry pick all the good veteran players that outplayed their contracts. How about all the turds that get a million?

You don't even address the fact that we can bring someone in to play NT who is a big downgrade to Williams. For me, I think it's well worth it to spend an extra million to bring back a known quantity, but I guess we'll see what happens.

 

[kerouac9]

Sure, cherry pick all the good veteran players that outplayed their contracts. How about all the turds that get a million?

You don't even address the fact that we can bring someone in to play NT who is a big downgrade to Williams. For me, I think it's well worth it to spend an extra million to bring back a known quantity, but I guess we'll see what happens.

http://www.spotrac.com/blog/nfl-minimum-salaries-for-2015-and-the-veteran-cap-benefit-rule/

No, like--literally, the cost for a veteran free agent is more or less $1M against the cap. The above are the minimum salaries, and there's usually some roster/signing/workout bonus attached.

 

[Bert]

do u want people think in your same way
discussion is the heart of a forum
can u imagine how boring should be a forum without controversy
is nice when someone is able to create a civil debate
so sometimes i feel this need

Ok first, I never said anything remotely close to wanting to stifle the discussion.

I said I hate one specific argument in this specific thread because I think it is an incorrect assessment. We were having a difference of opinion, and we were discussing it in a very civil way.

How is that me wanting everyone to think the same way as me?

You seem to want everyone to make their points in the exact way that you deem appropriate and you feel so strongly about it that you jump into the middle of a discussion just to do a 'gotcha' post that contributed nothing to what we were discussing, it was just about me.

So do you have any thoughts on it? Do you believe that looking at sacks alone is a fair way to asses the impact that Dan Williams has on the field?

PS: Did I state that question in a stimulating enough manner in which to promote discussion? I hope that was ok and up to your vision of what this board should be.

 

[juza76]

Ok first, I never said anything remotely close to wanting to stifle the discussion.

I said I hate one specific argument in this specific thread because I think it is an incorrect assessment. We were having a difference of opinion, and we were discussing it in a very civil way.

How is that me wanting everyone to think the same way as me?

You seem to want everyone to make their points in the exact way that you deem appropriate and you feel so strongly about it that you jump into the middle of a discussion just to do a 'gotcha' post that contributed nothing to what we were discussing, it was just about me.

So do you have any thoughts on it? Do you believe that looking at sacks alone is a fair way to asses the impact that Dan Williams has on the field?

PS: Did I state that question in a stimulating enough manner in which to promote discussion? I hope that was ok and up to your vision of what this board should be.

all is fine
dan Williams is a good player but certainly his percentage of snaps in the last seasons and the lack of qb hurries doesnt give him the levarage to ask a big contract
2,5 -3 mil is the range IMO
anyway a team doesnt let a great player test the market

 

[joeshmo]

The guy flat out kicked ass last year. I don't get why some think 3.5 million for a dlineman who can eat blockers like DW did last year is too much. It took awhile, but he hit his first round potential. It'd be disappointing to see him walk and take his realized potential elsewhere.

Just to play devils advocate here, did it take a while because the light finally come on or did it come on because of contract year?

 

[imaCafan]

Just to play devils advocate here, did it take a while because the light finally come on or did it come on because of contract year?

We'll find out next year.....

 

[Chopper0080]

It's completely unfair to put rookie contracts up with veteran contracts. Total apples to oranges comparison.

Look at Glenn Dorsey's number with the 49ers--that's the cost for an unproven or below average NT (and I think he may have played DE for them) in the veteran marketplace.

The reason for the rookie contracts in that list was to give an idea of how many teams are willing to use draft picks to fill that role vs signing a vet for 2 to 4 mil. It shows the difference in cost between signing a vet, and using a pick to fill that role. It also highlights that you don't have to use first round picks to draft someone for that role.

Dorsey played NT which was interesting because he was drafted as a 3 technique in a 4-3 out of college by KC.

 

[Chopper0080]

http://www.spotrac.com/blog/nfl-minimum-salaries-for-2015-and-the-veteran-cap-benefit-rule/

No, like--literally, the cost for a veteran free agent is more or less $1M against the cap. The above are the minimum salaries, and there's usually some roster/signing/workout bonus attached.

This. 1 mil = 1 vet most of the time. How much you value that is determined by how much you value depth on your squad. I think it is important, and believe it was highlighted last year. So, the difference between 2.5 mil to 3.5 mil is notable.

 

[kerouac9]

The reason for the rookie contracts in that list was to give an idea of how many teams are willing to use draft picks to fill that role vs signing a vet for 2 to 4 mil. It shows the difference in cost between signing a vet, and using a pick to fill that role. It also highlights that you don't have to use first round picks to draft someone for that role.

Dorsey played NT which was interesting because he was drafted as a 3 technique in a 4-3 out of college by KC.

Maybe that's what your intention was, but the data you put up doesn't necessarily control for/provide information to that effect--particularly about whether the teams are happy with that contribution. The number of players on rookie contracts could just as easily suggest how difficult it is to find good free agent nose tackles who can be productive, so teams are rolling the dice in the draft to try and fill the role.

Either way, not denoting players on rookie deals seems like it provides an incomplete salary picture for the relative value of the position.

Glenn Dorsey is such an interesting case study. He was drafted 5th overall to play the Suh role in a Tampa-2 defense, but Herm Edwards was fired after his rookie season. He was mis-cast as a five-technique DE in three man front for the next four years under Haley/Pendergast and had essentially fallen off the face of the earth. Went to San Francisco in 2013 as a reclamation project and played 13 games at NT and collected a couple of sacks.

 

[Chopper0080]

Maybe that's what your intention was, but the data you put up doesn't necessarily control for/provide information to that effect--particularly about whether the teams are happy with that contribution. The number of players on rookie contracts could just as easily suggest how difficult it is to find good free agent nose tackles who can be productive, so teams are rolling the dice in the draft to try and fill the role.

Either way, not denoting players on rookie deals seems like it provides an incomplete salary picture for the relative value of the position.

Glenn Dorsey is such an interesting case study. He was drafted 5th overall to play the Suh role in a Tampa-2 defense, but Herm Edwards was fired after his rookie season. He was mis-cast as a five-technique DE in three man front for the next four years under Haley/Pendergast and had essentially fallen off the face of the earth. Went to San Francisco in 2013 as a reclamation project and played 13 games at NT and collected a couple of sacks.

You can use the data to support a couple different arguements.

What I choose to use it to detail is that consistently good defensive teams (Steelers, Ravens, Jets) have recently used the draft or a sub 2.5 mil contract to fill the NT role. Those are teams who are consistently good vs the run. That is obviously not the only way you can get production from that position.

What I take away from those numbers is that the number of NTs paid over 3 mil is small. How important they are to overall rush defense is not easily quantifiable, and you agree that rush defense success depends on more than one player. There are successful rush defense teams with mid round picks as their NTs. Those are what I choose to take away from this, and why I am ok with the team letting Williams test the market. I believe you can find similar production for a fraction of the cost. Their execution of this is to be determined.